Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Twolanerider]

Don,
       So what your saying sound like that our own government perpetuates this fraud because it nets them money ?

Brian,
Assuming this hypothetical illegal worker is supplying the Social Security number that he's supposed to supply to get on someone's employment roll that's the way it would work out.  Obviously if the person is in some way self-employed or a private contractor he'd be outside of normal payroll deductions from an employer.  There are a very few other types of hire that don't require withholding and deductions to be done as well.  All that notwithstanding, however, most hires require a SS#.  If there's one given it's just a case of connecting the obvious dots:

1) Supply SS #
2) Have the various taxes withheld
3) File a tax return
4) Get any overpayments back
5) Make various other claims against the Treasury or SS Trust fund as your circumstances might warrant

So if you're hired and supply a fake SS#, and if your employer is not also crooked, the first two are happening.  If you never file a tax return that money withheld stays with the state and Federal treasuries.  Don't get me wrong; it's not clear profit.  Other governmental expenses are incurred by way of costs via emergency room health care, certain welfare programs, etc etc etc.  But an illegal is often avoiding as much of a paper trail as possible.  So their taxed deductions often just go to the treasury without any tax refund being requested and without as high a percentage of other drains on the system as is someone who is a citizen or a legal guest and really trying to milk it.

[Twolanerider]

Ooops, to finish the thought.  No, I don't blame any level of government for establishing a system that allows them to avoid looking at illegals because their taxes might (or might not) be more profitable.  The tax system is setup for the normal taxpayer.  It has to be.  That an illegal might never claim a refund on his paid taxes is just a positive byproduct.

[grc]

Don,

Wouldn't the government notice a problem when they tried to credit the SS money to the bogus account number?  Yeah, I know - it's the government were talkin' about, dumb question.

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

Don,

Wouldn't the government notice a problem when they tried to credit the SS money to the bogus account number?  Yeah, I know - it's the government were talkin' about, dumb question.

Jerry

Mrs We would likely be our best source for hard data on this.  But the few times I've had to research the general topic, yes, some auditing error might or might now show up.  But if the SS # is bogus then contact information might be as well.  And, since they've already got the money in hand, there's little beyond perfunctory follow up letters done track it down.  They get pissy when you don't pay a tax.  But if you've actually paid it and then might not be making a claim against it that's something they whine less about   .

[DCFIREMANN]

We, and every other employer that I know, do get a copy of their SS card, and a copy of their ID card, and DO deduct income taxes from their checks ..... We are REQUIRED to do these by law.

That is BULL S%^T!!!! You 1099 them and they have a bogus SS number so therefore they pay no taxes.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Twolanerider]

That is BULL S%^T!!!! You 1099 them and they have a bogus SS number so therefore they pay no taxes.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg, that depends on how you hire.  If an employer chooses to hire only independent contractors and then 1099s, especially in an employment market heavy in illegals, that employer may be looking for ways to attract just those illegals.  If, on the other hand, that employer hires traditionally he does take withholdings and taxes are collected and sent to the treasury.  The prospective illegal employee may very well be looking for the employer that will make it easier for him to put the most money in his pocket (who wouldn't?).  But that doesn't mean it's ok for the employer to, with a wink and a nod, be willing to in fact make it easy for him.

[DCFIREMANN]

Dawg, that depends on how you hire.  If an employer chooses to hire only independent contractors and then 1099s, especially in an employment market heavy in illegals, that employer may be looking for ways to attract just those illegals.  If, on the other hand, that employer hires traditionally he does take withholdings and taxes are collected and sent to the treasury.  The prospective illegal employee may very well be looking for the employer that will make it easier for him to put the most money in his pocket (who wouldn't?).  But that doesn't mean it's ok for the employer to, with a wink and a nod, be willing to in fact make it easy for him.

DON I understand that comnpletly. Around here they play the 1099 deal. The employers should be shot. I know that some employers try but they (the immigrants) seem to get around the system. The best way to prevent this is NOT HIRE ANY OF THEM till our great government gets a handle on it.  

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[SPIDERMAN]

This is the kind of topic I really enjoy. Back and forth and informative for those participating and those just reading. What I'm getting here is a sense that a reasonable person could conclude that the employers on the whole are fully aware of the fraud they are perpetrating, but choose to turn a blind eye either because the competative market is forcing them to do so OR because they know they can get away with it and the practice improves their bottom line. Either way, it is easy to understand why a lot of small business people are either supportive of ILLIGALS or are willing to ignore the problem. Seems like people are willing to adjust their morality to what best serves their self interests. No surpise there, I would guess that is a somewhat hardwired trait of homo sapiens. Some might even call it self preservation.

[yellowsedeuce]

We, and every other employer that I know, do get a copy of their SS card, and a copy of their ID card, and DO deduct income taxes from their checks ..... We are REQUIRED to do these by law.

I also am in the immigrant heavy employee business. I own & operate two landscape contruction and maintenance companies.  I interview all prospects and only hire those with documents.  SSN cards, INS (green cards).  I turn away those who don't have these docs.  All are on payroll, workers' comp. and general $2M liability ins. policies.

My beef is with all of the customers who will hire the illegal or even the legal without getting proper id to take care of their gardens, install landscaping and many other trades that they do.  The latin immigrants (legal/illegal) are migrating into our society because they are learning and refining their skills.  Those that are independant contractors don't report all (if any) of their revenues.  These are the people whom we are subsidizing with their medical bills, their children's public education, insurance premiums,etc.

Yesterday, I was at the DMV and removing the lienholder on one of my trucks.  While I was there, three immigrants were trying to register their cars and were told to come back with liability insurance.  At least when CA gave illegals DLs, many got insurance and most of the time the local government knew where they lived.  Now we have millions of the illegals on the road without licenses and insurance, resulting in so many hit and run incidents.  Many of these victims are left for dead.  How many lives are lost due to this?  

We need to come up with a system to document the illegals and make them own up to their actions while they are here.  I am against blanket amnesty, etc. but, we're never going to be able to deport all of them. Their being here is driving up the costs of ALL of us here.

Just my .02 and just scratching the surface of this issue!

Yellowsedeuce

[Twolanerider]

I also am in the immigrant heavy employee business. I own & operate two landscape contruction and maintenance companies.  I interview all prospects and only hire those with documents.  SSN cards, INS (green cards).  I turn away those who don't have these docs.  All are on payroll,

Perhaps the most on-point thing so far Yellow.  Yes, those hired as independent contractors and issued 1099s are far more likely to not report and under-report (for that matter the same is true of legal workers and citizens who are paid the same way--though the statistical prevalence is quite a bit less).

All the illegals can't be deported.  Whether someone would want them to be or not; they just can't.  Government can't (and can't realistically be expected to) find everyone.  The one thing everyone has in common is they have to eat.  So they have to work or steal.  Most work.  So the first lines of defense against illegality in the work force and as a segment of society is to make that illegality both not so easy and make it not pay.  In other words, it's the employers.

Government has to crack down on employers who bend or break the rules (not to be vindictive, there's just no other enforcement tool that applies so effectively).  Employers have to be responsible at greater than an individual selfish level.  Should such a thing occur on a truly national and effective level different things would happen.  Government also has to document; through things like enforcing almost draconian penalties for someone found to be avoiding things like drivers licenses or payments to ERs for purposes of evading identification and immigration or, working from the other side, finding ways to give incentive to "entering the system."

Employers have to be diligent and government has to help with both carrots and sticks.  If such things were to occur on truly effective and national levels a few things would happen:

Word would slowly start to get out it's not as "easy" anymore.
More would enter the system legitimately because it wouldn't be easier or money saving to stay out of it anymore.


Having said all that, in the current climates and with the current budget applications it's pie-in-the-sky......

[byronrb]

That is BULL S%^T!!!! You 1099 them and they have a bogus SS number so therefore they pay no taxes.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

So you're calling me a liar, because you know more about farming in Ca than I do. I'm guessing you're a fireman, tell me if I'm wrong.

[naitram]

this has been a heated and lively discussion, nothing wrong with that but its leaning towards getting personal, between a couple of members.

no one should be second guessing how another member is or isnt employing illeagles

[SPIDERMAN]

Well Naitram, in my mind I've been participating in a debate on an issue with Nationwide resonance. I've enjoyed the give and take on this thread a lot as I've gained a lot of knowlege I did not previously posses. This issue is extremly complex and the more we all understand about the various positions in the debate, the more informed we will be if the time comes to vote on a referendum or other voter initiative type legislation. I fully expect it to come to that prior to the 08 Presidential election. I'm not targeting anyone specific because I don't know what 99.999999% of you do. I do know what DC does since he reminds us all the time (LOL) and of course Beags is my best friend and bro. I digress- - - anyway, If I've offended anyone or said anything that was taken in a personal way then I sincerely apologize.

[JCZ]

We, and every other employer that I know, do get a copy of their SS card, and a copy of their ID card, and DO deduct income taxes from their checks ..... We are REQUIRED to do these by law.

I'm in the property management industry and I've hired my share of minoritys.  I photocopy their SS card, driver's license, etc. however, those can be bought at a local illegal immagrant hangout for a few bucks.  Now, our industry runs a background check on new hires, along with the drug test.......that comes back and tells us if the SS# is valid for the name that's being used with it.  But I know of one case, where the guy still got by all the checks and balances by using his friends ID and SS# and the friend (I was told it was a cousin, after he was terminated) was cashing the check and giving the money back to the employee, minus his cut.  You almost have the access that law enforcement has, when you hire.

I will throw a stick in the spokes right here.  A contractor asked me once......."why do you hire so many minoritys?".  My answer, without thought, was quite simple...."because they're willing to do work that I can't get white guys to do and they're willing to work harder without whinning about how hot or how cold it is outside (I don't make the weather and can't change it)" (housekeeping and porter/groundskeeper type work).  That's been my observation in this industry.  Do I not hire whites anymore?  The majority of my guys are white but I do and have had Hispanics, Phillapino, blacks, Asian, Samoian, Russian, Aremanian, Romanian and probably a few others that I'm just not thinking of.  I do my part to try to make certain that they're legal if for no other reason then I hate to have to hire......I want to keep employees long term.  Fortunately, for me, it's been awhile since I've had to hire and I've got some long term employees.

[JCZ]

That is BULL S%^T!!!! You 1099 them and they have a bogus SS number so therefore they pay no taxes.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

When the employer sends in the taxes for an emplyee, if the employee gave a wrong number, the taxes still went in under somebody's number......they're not returned because the name didn't match the number.

I used to work for a large nation wide property management company a few years back.  We got notified by the IRS that a whole grip of employees on the west coast (I think it was about twenty or twenty five up and down the west coast) all had SS # that did not match names.  We gave them the benefit of the doubt and allowed them a couple days to bring correct information and all of them were terminated within a few days.  That hurt our company but I can assure you that the federal government did not return any of the taxes that had been paid by the company for how ever long these employees worked for us.  Some had been with us for several years.

It got so bad that this industry (property management) now runs background checks on each emplyee applicant.  It's not mandatory for employers to do it but I think that most in our industry do it now......along with drug testing.  It's all just normal protcol now.