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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: vrog on May 04, 2011, 10:40:09 PM
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Not sure if this is the right spot to ask.
What is a brand new zero mile 2011 103" out of a street glide worth? Is this motor a good starting point for a build?
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What it's worth depends on what you want from it ?
Obviously the 103 even in stock condition has more Oomph than a 96"
But is that enough for you ?
Have you ridden a 2011 103"
I have and they're nice but not as potent as my used to be a 96" built up 103"
Then there's the little matter of asking price.
If I had a stock standard issue 2011 H-D with a 96" motor and somebody offered me a 2011 103" motor for say $3k, yeah, that'd be worth it.
If they wanted anything north of $3,500 I'd be sinking that money into my 96, keeping my matching VIN and Engine # intact and ending being happier for it.
Bottom line is as with all things, it comes down to money. How much something is worth is how much it's worth to YOU. Not me, not Naitram, not d00d or JCZ but YOU.
That's all I've got given what you gave me to work with
B B
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What it's worth depends on what you want from it ?
Obviously the 103 even in stock condition has more Oomph than a 96"
But is that enough for you ?
Have you ridden a 2011 103"
I have and they're nice but not as potent as my used to be a 96" built up 103"
Then there's the little matter of asking price.
If I had a stock standard issue 2011 H-D with a 96" motor and somebody offered me a 2011 103" motor for say $3k, yeah, that'd be worth it.
If they wanted anything north of $3,500 I'd be sinking that money into my 96, keeping my matching VIN and Engine # intact and ending being happier for it.
Bottom line is as with all things, it comes down to money. How much something is worth is how much it's worth to YOU. Not me, not Naitram, not d00d or JCZ but YOU.
That's all I've got given what you gave me to work with
B B
Thanks for the response. I have not rode a bike with the new 103. Was having a conversation with a friend about pulling out a brand new 103" and putting in a 120R and trying to sell the 103" to get some money back. I figured the same, $3-$3,500.
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Doubt if that'll pull that kind of dough..........
For about $3500.00, the savy guy, can have a 107"(120/120)from his 96",(minus tuning)that'll blow the ever-lovin' shorts off that OE 103"er boat anchor. :)
Scott
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Doubt if that'll pull that kind of dough..........
For about $3500.00, the savy guy, can have a 107"(120/120)from his 96",(minus tuning)that'll blow the ever-lovin' shorts off that OE 103"er boat anchor. :)
Scott
well in that case, what if you threw $3000-$3,500 at the 103"? But at that point does it make sense just to buy the 120R? Thanks for your professional opinion. ( I'm being serious as i install floors and have no clue about motors! )
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well in that case, what if you threw $3000-$3,500 at the 103"? But at that point does it make sense just to buy the 120R? Thanks for your professional opinion. ( I'm being serious as i install floors and have no clue about motors! )
People seem to think that by buying the 120R they will get power and reliability... but the 120R out of the crate still needs the crank/bottom end beefed up, some more compression, and if it were me, a little head work too. While the 120R crate motor is a great start, it's not 'all good to go' right out of the crate... if it was it wouldn't be so cheap.
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People seem to think that by buying the 120R they will get power and reliability... but the 120R out of the crate still needs the crank/bottom end beefed up, some more compression, and if it were me, a little head work too. While the 120R crate motor is a great start, it's not 'all good to go' right out of the crate... if it was it wouldn't be so cheap.
Do you mean it needs all of the above just like thats what our 110's need in order to get the most out of them? I have been reading up quite a bit on this and it seems that Harley and Vance & Hines have done a lot of testing on these 102R's. Seems as if the guys who just throw them in are with the 125/125+ are more than happy. A few others have changed cams trying to get more TQ earlier are regretting it. If left alone as designed buy Harley I'm wondering if its just as good as the 110's?
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People seem to think that by buying the 120R they will get power and reliability... but the 120R out of the crate still needs the crank/bottom end beefed up, some more compression, and if it were me, a little head work too. While the 120R crate motor is a great start, it's not 'all good to go' right out of the crate... if it was it wouldn't be so cheap.
Half Crazy,
Do you have any first hand personal experience with the 120r to speak from? What failures have "You" seen so far? Why does it need more compression if they are making 120/120 out of the box for most people that is near perfect compared to what they are coming from and in a lot of cases its nearing 1 /12 to 2 times what they already have such as a stock 103 motor. Hell most 110 owners are looking for 120/120 without the compression out the roof.
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It's always more cost effective to do it right the first time. I wish I heeded that advice two years ago, but no, I had to learn the lesson the hard way! That little bit of education cost me 6 months time and $6,000.
No, I don't have ANY experience with the 120R. I would suggest talking to some reputable engine builders and doing a whole lot of reading/studying before plunking down lots of cash. From what I can glean off the web, the 120R crank is not welded and the cams that come with it could use more compression to work at their best efficiency. Why settle for a 'maybe' on reliability and settle for 120/120 on power, when you can have a 'yes' on reliablity and make an easy 135/135 with great low end torque?
Just sayin'
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The 266 cam is running at about 3/4's of a point shy on compression to pull full effectiveness from it, our a plug/play Wood 408. :)
Scott
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Half Crazy,
Do you have any first hand personal experience with the 120r to speak from? What failures have "You" seen so far? Why does it need more compression if they are making 120/120 out of the box for most people that is near perfect compared to what they are coming from and in a lot of cases its nearing 1 /12 to 2 times what they already have such as a stock 103 motor. Hell most 110 owners are looking for 120/120 without the compression out the roof.
120 square, is a day at the beach, for a 110"er set up correctly. :)
Scott
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120 square, is a day at the beach, for a 110"er set up correctly. :)
Scott
And back to Harry's comment.....in that 110" set up correctly, what would the compression be?
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Just for chits and giggles, let's toss into this discussion the reliability factor. There's no doubt you can build a rocket motor out of almost any stock H-D, or you can buy a big inch fast motor, spend more money and make it go even faster. One thing you never see is any metrics on the reliability of any of the big aftermarket motors. At best you join a forum like this one and hope you can glean some useful information on what you can expect to get for your hard earned Benjamins out of motors A, B, C or D. Another issue is how fast is fast enough - - -or too fast. At what point are you building something you truly only get to make use of on those rare occasions when you throw caution to the wind (ie - -ignore the possibility of getting caught) or you take the vehicle to a track. A long time ago I had to have bigger better faster more. At some point, I got tired of tickets and insurance costs being through the roof and something always needing attention mechanically and decided to settle for faster than OEM but still reliable and not so insanely quick as to keep me in a constant adrenaline rush which renders me unable to think logically.
And that's my soapbox for the day
B B
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And back to Harry's comment.....in that 110" set up correctly, what would the compression be?
And to answer Harry's question.........
It would have the same, or a tick less, ccp as an OEM 255(ie, "school bus cam") equipped 110", and run down the road at a corrected compression of approx. 9.6, and run cooler as well, doing so. :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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Everyone is making good points here. I guess what I'm asking is the 120R similiar to the 110" we have as far as reliablility?
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No reason that a 120" R, or 124", or 131"er shouldn't be just fine. :)
Scott
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Everyone is making good points here. I guess what I'm asking is the 120R similiar to the 110" we have as far as reliablility?
Vrog,
Ask Sandubar how he likes his in the 07 SE Ultra.
IMO it is better and stronger out of the gate with lower compression that a 110 would have to be to get there to the same 120/120. There are 4 of these 120r's running around locally and so far no issues. One is/will be beat pretty hard so that imo will be the real test of how well they hold up.
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Vrog,
Ask Sandubar how he likes his in the 07 SE Ultra.
IMO it is better and stronger out of the gate with lower compression that a 110 would have to be to get there to the same 120/120. There are 4 of these 120r's running around locally and so far no issues. One is/will be beat pretty hard so that imo will be the real test of how well they hold up.
I take it that's yours? :nixweiss:
Three other 120's that will not be beat pretty hard? That's a concern. :nervous:
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Everyone is making good points here. I guess what I'm asking is the 120R similiar to the 110" we have as far as reliablility?
I think you're asking a question that at this point, really can't be answered because there are not enough of them out there on the road at this point to know.
Like Spiderman said, how much is enough? I guess that depends on who you are, and how much money you want to spend, and how reliable you need the motor to be. For me, enough has always been putting decent headers, mufflers, and if needed, a different air cleaner assembly, then getting a decent MAP for the bike to cool things down a bit, and at the same time make drivability better. Beyond that, it's hard to figure out where to stop with the modifications, IMO, and you have to start being concerned with the bottom end of the motor, which gets into some more serious $$. Even stock, the crankshaft on the 110 is something to be concerned about, and if the 120 has the same type, I'd be even more concerned. But, I'm not a motor head, so take what I say with however many grains of salt you choose. If I really wanted to go fast, I'd just buy a 13K Ducati and scare myself to death....which I did, and sold it.
But, back to the point...in another year or so, when there are enough 120's out there with some real miles on them, there might be a better answer to you question...especially if they put the 120 in ALL CVO bikes in 2012.
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how fast is fast enough?
That is a tough question. Some people think stock is plenty fast enough, and it's hard to argue with that. Considering the speed limit is 75 at the most, in theory, a bike that will accelerate OK and cruise easily at 75-80 mph should be plenty adequate... But then again, if that was all we bought bikes for no one needs a CVO Harley. If doing the speed limit was the only criterion, a Honda Rebel would meet the requirement. We buy what we buy for subjective/emotional reasons and I would venture a guess that most guys on CVOHarley.com didn't buy their current bike because it was practical. If they wanted practical they'd be driving a freakin' mini-van, right?
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JCZ,
I have not ventured this particular path as of yet, my Krypto is just getting passed the break in although once I sell my 131 that was replaced by Jim's I will probably pull the trigger :)
The one that is rode hard was built to play with his friend that has an Rev Performance build. They run them hard all the time.
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Just for chits and giggles, let's toss into this discussion the reliability factor. There's no doubt you can build a rocket motor out of almost any stock H-D, or you can buy a big inch fast motor, spend more money and make it go even faster. One thing you never see is any metrics on the reliability of any of the big aftermarket motors. At best you join a forum like this one and hope you can glean some useful information on what you can expect to get for your hard earned Benjamins out of motors A, B, C or D. Another issue is how fast is fast enough - - -or too fast. At what point are you building something you truly only get to make use of on those rare occasions when you throw caution to the wind (ie - -ignore the possibility of getting caught) or you take the vehicle to a track. A long time ago I had to have bigger better faster more. At some point, I got tired of tickets and insurance costs being through the roof and something always needing attention mechanically and decided to settle for faster than OEM but still reliable and not so insanely quick as to keep me in a constant adrenaline rush which renders me unable to think logically.
And that's my soapbox for the day
B B
This is probably the smartest comment I have heard lately on this forum! All any Harley really needs is just more torque. Plain old brute torque. All of us know that in stock trim , with the exception of the 110's they take 3 days to pass a car. You do headpipe , tune, and mufflers (baffles , slipons , whatever) and that pretty well fixes the problem. Anything over that and you are asking for more trouble in the form of the types experienced by spiderman. Nothing wrong at all with building that big ass motor , we have all done it, just keep in mind there is a place for everything. If you just want to enjoy your ride , long or short, and not be wrenching or watching for the man all the time then the mods described above should trip your trigger just fine. Whatever you decide be safe and be sane!