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[Whiskey Jim]

 Looking for starter help. I just purchased 05 SEEG and it starts fine cold but has trouble when hot. Starter grinds and acts like it cant engage. Any ideas?

[hdbrad03]

Welcome to the crowd. I replaced the ring gear and pinion to a 10/84 setup. Solved the issue.

http://www.mcadvantages.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.view&productid=16765&cids=-1,34,165,168

 
Brad

[porthole]

Looking for starter help. I just purchased 05 SEEG and it starts fine cold but has trouble when hot. Starter grinds and acts like it cant engage. Any ideas?

Sounds about normal. I find it best to let the engine cool down at least 15 minutes before re-starting.

[hd-dude]

Check your battery cables. Pull the sheath back, If you see any corrosion on the copper replace them.

[ccr]

I can not start my bike after it has been underway for a bit unless I kick it into neutral.  I am on starter 3.  The original crapped out soon after new - replaced with chrome, which died - on the road in the middle of a ride all kinds of burned up stuff.  Replaced that one with chrome and it is still living, but still gives problems.  Leave the house, go five miles stop for gas, gotta kick it down into neutral to start.  Sorry for your problems.

[BAKRDS]

Guess I've been lucky.Only had to replace the bendix drive on my '04 at about 50,000 miles.If it didn't start the 1st time over it would slam in & out 'till it sounded like it was going to come apart.

[Whiskey Jim]

Hey guys thanks for the responses turn out to have been a weak starter. Dealer took almost three weeks to solve issue did not give me a warm fuzzy if there are futher issues. Thanks again.

[Gettinold]

Let us know how it holds up.

[Boatman]

Welcome to the crowd. I replaced the ring gear and pinion to a 10/84 setup. Solved the issue.

http://www.mcadvantages.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.view&productid=16765&cids=-1,34,165,168

 
Brad

Jim, I did the same as Brad.  Completely happy with the Rivera 10-84T ring gear set up.  The stock gearset is a 102T fine mesh setup where the Rivera has a larger pinion (bendix) gear and a smaller ringear so the teeth splines are coarser.  When the bendix engages into the ringear, it is easier for the 2 gears to mesh.

When you have the primary cover off, the old ringear does not look that bad, but once you have the clutch hub off, you can see the teeth much better.

I also put the chrome starter on at that time and looks great with the TD headpipes.

TECH TIP-Tighten the jackshaft bolt hand tight and don't torque it to the 60-80" #'s..  (Just tighten the bolt to the point where the pinion gear just starts to turn).  I have more starter experience than I want.  Works great now.  Will write a report after Maggie Valley trip.

[porthole]

Works great now.  Will write a report after Maggie Valley trip.

Well, you've been home a week now git with it 

[porthole]

I can not start my bike after it has been underway for a bit unless I kick it into neutral.  I am on starter 3.  The original crapped out soon after new - replaced with chrome, which died - on the road in the middle of a ride all kinds of burned up stuff.  Replaced that one with chrome and it is still living, but still gives problems.  Leave the house, go five miles stop for gas, gotta kick it down into neutral to start.  Sorry for your problems.

Two SEEG's mine and Bob's

Mine I can start with no problems anytime in gear
Bob's - has to be in neutral

Both - sound like chit when hot and grind like all those that have the same bike know. I thought CR's would help, but the ring gear seems easier.

Bob - is that a Riviera part? the link didn't specify. Did you try getting it from a 20% dealer?

[JCZ]

I think I've had a problem five times in the 42k miles.  When the bike gets really hot (when it's up above 100 F outside and I've rode a long way) and I turn it off for gas or whatever, it will not start when I hit the starter button.  It doesn't do anything except a small click on two of the occassions.

Three times, my road dogs pushed me down the driveway (doesn't take much to push start them) and twice I've used a small piece of wire that I now keep in my windshield pouch to jump it over.

It certainly doesn't do it every time it gets hot, since it's often over 100F here and not even often enough that I've done anything more with it than to check the cables.

[Cvostu]

i made sure that the cables from the battery were nice and tight and the same with the ground wires inder the seat connected to the frame. Seems to be much better.  Starts right up just about any and all the time now.

[VANAMAL]

http://harleyzone.tenmagazines.com/ew/topic.asp?id=77827&s=service_bulletin_starter

[Boatman]

Bob - is that a Riviera part? the link didn't specify. Did you try getting it from a 20% dealer?

Duane-The link provided is a gear set from Compufire.  I used the 10-84 gearset from Rivera.  I bought  the Rivera gearset from a recommendation of Mark from M&M Cycles over the Compufire as he did not like the Compufire starters.  He will sell you the Rivera gearset and primary gasket and seal kit from Cometic at 15-20% off list.  I also put on the MOCO chrome starter and the Rivera starter jackshaft kit at the time of the ringear replacement.

www.mandmcycles.com   The main thing you have to remember with Mark is that it takes 10-14 days to get as he has to order most everything.

[Boatman]

it will not start when I hit the starter button.  It doesn't do anything except a small click on two of the occassions.

and twice I've used a small piece of wire that I now keep in my windshield pouch to jump it over.

If you have already removed the ground&positive cables from the starter and cleaned as Jim and Stu have suggested, remove the 3 bolt soloenoid cover cover on the starter and remove the plunger and lightly sand the contact washer on the plunger as well as the contacts in the starter housing.  Also, don't forget the starter relay under the seat that will sometimes just click and not send the signal to the trigger wire on the starter.  You have done well in only having a few starter problems in 42K miles.  Hope this helps.

[porthole]

Duane-The link provided is a gear set from Compufire.  I used the 10-84 gearset from Rivera.  I bought  the Rivera gearset from a recommendation of Mark from M&M Cycles over the Compufire as he did not like the Compufire starters.  He will sell you the Rivera gearset and primary gasket and seal kit from Cometic at 15-20% off list.  I also put on the MOCO chrome starter and the Rivera starter jackshaft kit at the time of the ringear replacement.

www.mandmcycles.com   The main thing you have to remember with Mark is that it takes 10-14 days to get as he has to order most everything.

Bob, have dealt with M&M several times.

Was is the "Rivera starter jackshaft kit"?

[Boatman]

Was is the "Rivera starter jackshaft kit"?

The starter jackshaft kit is their part# 1185-0004 and the 10-84 ring gear set is 2171-0011.
www.riveraengineering.com   page 223

I replaced the jackshaft (kit) as I didn't want any more starter problems (didn't know if mine was bent or worn).  The jackshaft goes between the starter and the starter bendix (pinion gear)..  You have to remove the inner primary to replace the jackshaft and related parts.  You do not have to pull the inner primary to replace just the starter pinion gear.

You can read the install instructions on Rivera's website.  When you install the new ringear, the bevel goes AWAY from the pinion gear.  Rivera's website says to put bevel towards the pinion gear but that only pertains to belt drives for clearance.  I called them and confirmed this.  If you read Compufire's instructions, their's says AWAY from pinion gear (bevel edge).



You probably already know that but just in case.  Bob

[porthole]

Now I have a reason to get that spare inner primary I have chromed, thanks Bob 

[Classic Beast]

The grinding noise can also be from the over running clutch be careful when you replace this as there are 2 main types but in those types it seems each manufacturer is slightly different, keep the jack shaft and spring that comes with the new over running clutch together as they can be different lengths and if miss matched will not engage the ring gear all the way which rips the teeth out. I went to a 66/9 ratio which is the strongest as my 127 is a bit of a bitch to turn over. The other thing is you might have to go to a higher amp battery when you upgrade the starter. The other thing that can help is to run a separate ground wire from the battery directly to a mounting bolt on the starter then upgrade the size of the positive cable. Especially with the rubber mounted motors. My 110 S&S was the worst because of no compression releases.

[efrbc1]

Sounds like I'm experiencing the same.  '05 SEEG grinding when starting hot (been getting progressively worse) to the point where I thought it wouldn't start today.  Talked with Mark at M&M and the 10-84 Riviera gear set is on the way.  Never been in the primary before but I have done the cams and top end so I'm hoping its not too difficult to do myself.

Chris

[Hoist!]

Sounds like I'm experiencing the same.  '05 SEEG grinding when starting hot (been getting progressively worse) to the point where I thought it wouldn't start today.  Talked with Mark at M&M and the 10-84 Riviera gear set is on the way.  Never been in the primary before but I have done the cams and top end so I'm hoping its not too difficult to do myself.

Chris

With these big motors using hydraulic lifters, I imagine you must have some type of compression relese to keep from tearing up starters/ring gears. The hydraulic lifter will bleed down at some point and cause all the valves to be closed, regardless of where in the engine/cam rotation you are. Then you have to get the lifters pumped up again before they'll open any valves again. This has got to be very tough on starters!

Hoist!

[toneman]

I recently did some cam work to my 04 SEEG, didn't have any starting problems prior to work. Dealer recommended a compression release...too costly. The 2 least expensive fixes are to let the bike cool down for 10-15 minutes or keep an open end 5/8 box wrench handy. When you have to make a quick stop loosen up the rear spark plug and re-tighten...instant $4.00 compression release. Goofy but effective..works every time.   

[Classic Beast]

If you have some big friends push starting works good too then you don't wear anything out.

[efrbc1]

So now my curiousity is up - why does this only happen when they are hot?

Chris

[DESERTBEAR54]

Mine does it only when it sits and cools down. Like first thing in the morning or when I get ready to go home from work in the afternoon. When I stop for gas and re-fire it up it starts normal? Harley tells me ACR's are good and SERT is tied in with them. I have had the Starter Ring Replaced??

[Classic Beast]

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=19569.new;topicseen#new

There is another thread discussing similar issues. I used to have a corvette that wouldn't start when it was hot. Change out the starter and it was good for 6 months then the same issue again. The exhaust was too close to the starter, changed out the exhaust system then no more problems. The other issue when hot could be pre ignition the motor is trying to fire back against the starter if you check out the link above there is an explanation of why this happens. Based on this I would say it could be as simple as going to a higher amp battery on the 110's Some of the new Glass Matt batteries are really powerful but if you really want some power see http://www.tekbattery.com/ they make some really powerful and light batteries that can be mounted in any position.

Battery rating vs. starter size
275 CCA = 1.0 starter ( stock )
300 CCA = 1.4 starter
385 CCA = 1.8 starter
500 CCA = 2.4 starter

[DESERTBEAR54]

This a cool start issue not when it is hot. It loves to start normal when its Hot.

[Classic Beast]

Looking for starter help. I just purchased 05 SEEG and it starts fine cold but has trouble when hot. Starter grinds and acts like it cant engage. Any ideas?

Sorry I was meaning this begining starting when hot issue. Cold of course its more load on the starter since it's a cold engine so I would load test the battery and clean all the connections. I use a product from Thomas And Betts Called Copper Shield. You can get it at most Electrical wholesalers and use it on all your battery and other connections it works wonderful and makes a huge difference, prevents corrosion. When I went to a higher amp battery, larger more flexible cables a separate ground cable from the battery to the starter and a 2kw starter with the 66/9 ring gear and pinion my problems are gone. This is on a 127 engine with 10.5 /1 compression so it takes a bit to start it.

[DESERTBEAR54]

Thanks Classic Beast!! I will relay that info to Harley when I take it in. Bike is just a year old and in Arizona we have no humidity.

[efrbc1]

Went to the dealer today to get a primary gasket.  He told me of the "new" procedure to tighten the comp nut.  Use red loctite.  Torque to 50 ft/lb, loosen and re-torque to 75 ft/lb.  Mark the nut and tighten 90 degrees (another 1/4 turn).

Anyone else familiar with this "new" technique?  My '03 manual says to torque to 150-165 ft/lb.

Chris

[Smiler]

what size engine you running, 103/95 if 88 soundds like you may need to change something.

[efrbc1]

103" Screamin Eagle Electra Glide (2005).

[SPIDERMAN]

Went to the dealer today to get a primary gasket.  He told me of the "new" procedure to tighten the comp nut.  Use red loctite.  Torque to 50 ft/lb, loosen and re-torque to 75 ft/lb.  Mark the nut and tighten 90 degrees (another 1/4 turn).

Anyone else familiar with this "new" technique?  My '03 manual says to torque to 150-165 ft/lb.

Chris

1/2 " pnuematic impact wrench. Wind it down till she binds.  Been doin it that way for more years than I can count.  Never had a problem

B B

[Fired00d]

Went to the dealer today to get a primary gasket.  He told me of the "new" procedure to tighten the comp nut.  Use red loctite.  Torque to 50 ft/lb, loosen and re-torque to 75 ft/lb.  Mark the nut and tighten 90 degrees (another 1/4 turn).

Anyone else familiar with this "new" technique?  My '03 manual says to torque to 150-165 ft/lb.

Chris

Hear is the Tech Bulletin that might apply to your bike if it was built before May 2005.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Boatman]

Went to the dealer today to get a primary gasket.  He told me of the "new" procedure to tighten the comp nut.  Use red loctite.  Torque to 50 ft/lb, loosen and re-torque to 75 ft/lb.  Mark the nut and tighten 90 degrees (another 1/4 turn).

Anyone else familiar with this "new" technique?  My '03 manual says to torque to 150-165 ft/lb.

Chris

I tightened mine by the procedure that d00d was nice enough to post.  So far so good.
With an impact. I'm not smart enough to quit until something is broke or ruined.   

[hogasm]

I would recommend replacing the compensator nut each time it is removed.

After MV last fall I had to replace the primary chain due to stretching. While tightening the comp nut it broke at 125 ft lbs. Had to split the cases to make repairs. Very costly.

Guess the old saying comes to mind...you can pay me now or pay me later

[Hoist!]

I picked up the new SE Compensator for Cybil. This is the procedure that came with the new Compensator.

Install the new screw by hand, and snug against the sprocket retainer. Using a 1-3/4" box end wrench to hold the crankshaft, tighten the screw to 100 ft-lbs. Loosen the screw by one full turn (360 degrees), then tighten to 140 ft-lbs.

This is very similar to efrbc1's post below!

Hoist!

[Boatman]

I would recommend replacing the compensator nut each time it is removed.

I listened Brian and put on a new nut when the ringgear was replaced.  Was even cheap by MOCO standards.  Forgot I replaced it until you brought it up again now even though you had told me earlier several months ago to do so.   

[SPIDERMAN]

I picked up the new SE Compensator for Cybil. This is the procedure that came with the new Compensator.

Install the new screw by hand, and snug against the sprocket retainer. Using a 1-3/4" box end wrench to hold the crankshaft, tighten the screw to 100 ft-lbs. Loosen the screw by one full turn (360 degrees), then tighten to 140 ft-lbs.

This is very similar to efrbc1's post below!

Hoist!

$20 solution to a nickle problem in my book

B B

[hd-dude]

1/2 " pnuematic impact wrench. Wind it down till she binds.  Been doin it that way for more years than I can count.  Never had a problem

B B

I would not recommend using an impact gun to tighten the comp nut or clutch basket. It is pretty much required to break the loose but the impact can break the magnets off of the rotor.

[Classic Beast]

I have also seen the impact gun knock the flywheels out of true. I would never use it. Had to re-true a set because of it.

[efrbc1]

Got it all done in about 2 1/2 hours.  Per the TSB, torque to 75 ft/lb and then tighten 45 degrees (1/8 of a turn) more.  Holy chit - it took two of us to tighten it!  It is sure a lot tighter now than it was when I took it off.

Very straightforward installation.  My "old" pinion gear wasn't broken but it is sure worn with a bit of a twist.  From the looks of the Rivera gears, I shouldn't have any more issues.  Per their suggestion, I will also be upgrading the battery cables.

Chris

[JCZ]

Got it all done in about 2 1/2 hours.  Per the TSB, torque to 75 ft/lb and then tighten 45 degrees (1/8 of a turn) more.  Holy chit - it took two of us to tighten it!  It is sure a lot tighter now than it was when I took it off.

Very straightforward installation.  My "old" pinion gear wasn't broken but it is sure worn with a bit of a twist.  From the looks of the Rivera gears, I shouldn't have any more issues.  Per their suggestion, I will also be upgrading the battery cables.

Chris

Are they saying (or suggesting) that the stock battery cables are defective or just insufficient to carry the full amp load?

[Boatman]

Are they saying (or suggesting) that the stock battery cables are defective or just insufficient to carry the full amp load?

I think they are saying that the MOCO cables are very cheaply made and the ends are just crimped on.  I bought and installed cables from www.harleyhog.co.uk/yooperbattery/cables.htm   .  They are at least soldered on.

The fellow is from Wisconsin.

[efrbc1]

I was looking at the Sumax - for twice the $$.  How do you like the Yoopers??

Chris

[Boatman]

I was looking at the Sumax - for twice the $$.  How do you like the Yoopers??

Chris

They appeared to be well made when I installed them and the ends were soldered on.  I also liked the fact that the cable from the negative battery to the stud under the seat was actually a cable and not a small wire that is crimped onto the negative cable that goes to the starter.  I would buy them again.  I believe I paid $39.00 for the 3 cables (2 ground, 1 positive) which included shipping.

The ends are not gold plated anymore (FWIW).

[DESERTBEAR54]

Boatman,
           Did the new cables help with starting or was that just part of your fix? Did you go with a bigger battery?

[Boatman]

Boatman,
           Did the new cables help with starting or was that just part of your fix? Did you go with a bigger battery?

Just upgraded to what I think was a better cable(s).  Did not fix my starter click problem.  I just installed the standard $150 MOCO dual post battery.

[DESERTBEAR54]

Thanks!! It will be part of my process also.

[Cvostu]

Thanks to Bob (Boatman), I replaced the ring/pinion gear and went the the Rivera 84/10 set up. I did replace the positive cable too and things seem to be a whole lot better.   No more of the "starting when hot" issue. The install was really easy and it starts right up now without that embarrassing noise.   Thanks Bob once again.

[Boatman]

Happy the starter ring gear replacement worked fine  Stuart.  A lot of us had that problem and I believe the 04-05's had a bad batch of cheap steel ring gears.   

[Mr. We]

Anyone here replaced the starter clutch? I was just talking with a friend in Belgium, and he said that a mechanic at Fort Washington HD recomended this and it worked great for him. I googled it and found some info on the V-Twin forum link here.

Looks like something to explore, anyone done this? 

[porthole]

Bob

Did I miss something here?

What is the purpose of the jack shaft kit once you have installed the 10/84 kit?

[Boatman]

Bob

Did I miss something here?

What is the purpose of the jack shaft kit once you have installed the 10/84 kit?

Duane-

You probably don't need to buy the jackshaft kit.  Being anal as I am and only wanting to do the job once, I took no chances and replaced the jackshaft too.  Kept the old one for a spare.  bob

[hogasm]

Anyone here replaced the starter clutch? I was just talking with a friend in Belgium, and he said that a mechanic at Fort Washington HD recomended this and it worked great for him. I googled it and found some info on the V-Twin forum link here.

Looks like something to explore, anyone done this? 

Not too bad

Pull primary,guts, install new clutch, comp nut, and 3 hours later it starts.....in a nutshell

[porthole]

Not too bad

Pull primary,guts, install new clutch, comp nut, and 3 hours later it starts.....in a nutshell

You recommending a new comp nut too? Why?

[porthole]

Duane-

You probably don't need to buy the jack shaft kit.  Being anal as I am and only wanting to do the job once, I took no chances and replaced the jack shaft too.  Kept the old one for a spare.  bob

Yeah, anal here too - but why did you do it? What does it serve in the end (as an improvement)?

We had 20% night last night at my dealer, so I ordered that along with a few other "parts"

[Boatman]

You recommending a new comp nut too? Why?

I did a compensating nut too as Brian and 2lane recommended it.  Wasn't very expensive (I believe less than $10) and already came precoated with loctite.  My nut had come loose once when I first got the bike and it was hard to scrape all the old loctite out of the threads. 

[porthole]

I did a compensating nut too as Brian and 2lane recommended it.  Wasn't very expensive (I believe less than $10) and already came precoated with loctite.  My nut had come loose once when I first got the bike and it was hard to scrape all the old loctite out of the threads. 

Mine too, but there was a service bulletin on that for a new torque procedure.

I didn't notice mine at first, riding home from the hospital, in the cold, radio going. But when I pulled in the garage my wife came out see to see what all the racket was.

[porthole]

What about that jack shaft reason Bob?

[Boatman]

What about that jack shaft reason Bob?

The main reason I ordered the jackshaft kit is that I had to order the 10-84 kit and seals and gaskets.  When I tore it down, I did not want to find something else wrong (like a bent jackshaft) and have to be broke down waiting for more parts to arrive.  Figured I would order everything I "thought" I might need at one time so I could put it back together and ride.  Did this just before the York 08 trip and didn't want to miss it (trip) with you guys/gals.

[porthole]

OK, good. I ordered both the 10/84 and the jack shaft kit last night

[porthole]

Well here is what my ring gear looks like

[porthole]

Bob - does that kit come with the necessary instructions?

I looked up the Jim's tool kit for this repair - ain't happening here - over $300!

[hogasm]

You recommending a new comp nut too? Why?

Has one bread while torquing it. Not a fun job trying to remove it after it breaks.

CHEAP INSURANCE

[hogasm]

Bob - does that kit come with the necessary instructions?

I looked up the Jim's tool kit for this repair - ain't happening here over $300!

Most new ring gears require you to drill out or grind off the pins that hold the stock one on. Then the new one gets bolted on.

Use red or better locktite

[porthole]

Has one bread while torquing it. Not a fun job trying to remove it after it breaks.

Seem to recall you breaking one. I will get one when I pick up the rest of my parts. Mine was torqued once when built and once when it loosened up by the shop, don't know if the TSB was out then.

Most new ring gears require you to drill out or grind off the pins that hold the stock one on. Then the new one gets bolted on.

Use red or better locktite

Yeah and I'm guessing my MOPAR automatic trans clutch tool will not fit this basket to disassemble the clutch so I can grind away 

[Classic Beast]

Bob - does that kit come with the necessary instructions?

I looked up the Jim's tool kit for this repair - ain't happening here - over $300!

Yup had that happen before, the reason was because the pinnion was not engaging the ring gear far enough I had changed out the over running clutch with a new one that came with a new shaft but the spring and the shaft were mixed up with the old one which was slightly shorter this prevented the pinnion gear from engaging properly, when I changed it out I also went to a 9 T pinion 66T ring gear which is much stronger and works waay better this is on a 127" 10.5 / 1 compression and has gone several seasons with no problems.

[Cvostu]

Well I broke down and put a new chrome starter in. So far so good. Hopefully with the new Rivera ring gear set, new battery cables, this will solve my starting issues. That grinding noise was killing me. Almost hated starting the bike when there were people around. I should be good now (I hope).

[uawman]

This thread made my day.  I've got all the symptoms as these.
I just ordered the parts from m and m cycle in Ohio (nice guy)
Thanks to all who commented.

[Cvostu]

after all the "stuff"   I still needed a new starter..  good now.  I did get the chrome of course.