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[GregKhougaz]

After over a month of "polite persistence" and going back and forth between dealer and HD customer service, HD finally agreed to replace both "cupped" tires at 9,100 miles; not as a warranty issue but to "keep customer satisfied."  

September 1, dealer replaced rear tire for "cupping" but did not have a front in stock.  How strange is that?    Dealer calls today with a front tire, a D402 F.  Dunlop web site for the D402 says:  

The D402 is the approved Harley-Davidson touring tire.

Built with a three-ply polyester casing with two fiberglass belts, the D402 offers greater load-carrying capacity and stability.

Computer-optimized tread profile with offset center groove improves rider confidence over rain grooves and steel-grated bridges, while reducing cupping for even wear.

The D402 is available in front and rear black, slim white-bar and wide-white sidewall, all with an H speed rating.

New 130/70-18 front tire in blackwall for custom fitment[/b]

Specs seem about the same as the D407.  

Any thoughts?  

Thank you! ! !
 

[LarryB]

Greg, the replacement for your front is a D408F
dealer is trying to switch you.
the fronts have been on back order from Dlop.
its the same tread pattern except backwards
Dunlop is not warrantying these this is from HD as it was there mistake

[grc]

Seems rather strange to me that the tires are still backordered (D408F) after all this time, but somehow they have D408's to use in production.  I still think it's all BS designed to get all the inventory of D407F's used up first, to save H-D a few bucks.  I find it impossible to believe that in a period of severely depressed motorcycle sales and curtailed production that Dunlop can't build them fast enough.  BS!

Greg, what is your current status on the front end?  If you're in a bind because they don't have a tire available and your current one is worn out or unsafe, you need to escalate the entire thing over their heads.  Try the Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.  I'll bet if those folks got enough safety related complaints good ol' H-D and Dunflop would get their acts together and "find" some 408's. 

As for the 402, I wouldn't go that way unless they are offering it free only until they can get the correct tire, and then only if H-D and Dunlop agree that the front/rear mismatch won't affect handling.

Jerry

[djkak]

From what I can tell, the 44026-09A D408 130/70B18 has been available for awhile; week or more anyway. Of course the -09 is obsolete. Try the Give your parts guy a call with the -09A number and see what happens.

For what it’s worth, I see wheel application for the 402 front is 3.0” wide and the 407 is 3.5”.

[Highjagger]

I ordered both tires at my local tire shop because the dealer is not able to get them and i was waiting one week , yesterday i picked up the both tires for my SERG : front D 408 F and rear D 407 , totally Euro 316 . Less than half the price at the dealer . Now i have them lying in my garage till i will need them , second set is still ok .
I love to be on the secure site ( for half the bucks ) 

[GregKhougaz]

For what it’s worth, I see wheel application for the 402 front is 3.0” wide and the 407 is 3.5”.

That is correct (from the Dunlop web site) but yesterday, dealer mounted the D402.  Mgr. tells me they have not had problems with the 402 series.  Bike seems to ride fine so... we'll see.     Have not hit twisties yet and will do so carefully!     I'll report after some good riding this weekend.

I know the "replacement was the 408 but also heard they have stopped that and went back to the 407.  I'm certainly not in favor of the 408's "reverse" tread patter.   

Thanks for the help everyone!   

[Hoist!]

That is correct (from the Dunlop web site) but yesterday, dealer mounted the D402.  Mgr. tells me they have not had problems with the 402 series.  Bike seems to ride fine so... we'll see.     Have not hit twisties yet and will do so carefully!     I'll report after some good riding this weekend.

I know the "replacement was the 408 but also heard they have stopped that and went back to the 407.  I'm certainly not in favor of the 408's "reverse" tread patter.   

Thanks for the help everyone!   

Well, they shorted you some extra contact area with that smaller tire! Result is slower track times!

Hoist!

[sblair]

D408's are coming out on the 2010 production bikes.  The issue is that the specific tires we want are low profile tires.  The D402's that are comparable are the previous years CVO applications.  The rear is only made for the SERG and maybe some 2010 applications.  Personally I would not settle for the D402.  Also do you have the tire insurance? and is it specific in nature?  ( I guess I should go check it too!!!!)   

[GregKhougaz]

Here is a comparison between the D407 and D402 from Dunlops specs. 


SIZE        LOAD/        SIDEWALL    PART #      RIMS   DIAMETER     WIDTH  TREAD DEPTH            MAXIMUM
           SPEED INDEX                                                                                                     LOAD @ PSI

 D407
130/70B18  63H              BW        3030-78      3.50      25.32          4.91         5/32                   600 @ 41


 D402
130/70-18  63H              BW        3020-78      3.00      25.27          5.18         6/32                   600 @ 41

Dealer put the D402 on the Front.  The Dunlop site says this from is for "custom applications."  As you can see, there is a difference in the recommended rim, a .05" difference in height and a .17" difference in width, the D402 being slightly lower and wider.  I road about 120 miles this past weekend with a passenger and the front seemed fine though I have a leaking rear shock for which the dealer has ordered a replacement.  Spent the entire ride bottoming out. 

This morning, I sent the following to Dunlop through their web site:

Hello,  I have a 2009 Harley Davidson Screamin' Eagle Road Glide (FLTRSE3)with 10,000 miles.  I noticed that after I had the tires replaced, the rear is a D407 180/55B18 but the front is now a D402 130/70-18.  Is this front tire the correct (and current) proper application for this motorcycle???  Thank you very much in advance for your response.    

Awaiting response from Dunlop.  Should be interesting.  Don't have the tire insurance but this is a warranty issue, not an extended warranty issue so I don't think that matters.  HD deemed the 402 to be appropriate and we'll see what Dunlop says.   

[charles05663]

Here is a comparison between the D407 and D402 from Dunlops specs. 


SIZE        LOAD/        SIDEWALL    PART #      RIMS   DIAMETER     WIDTH  TREAD DEPTH            MAXIMUM
           SPEED INDEX                                                                                                     LOAD @ PSI

 D407
130/70B18  63H              BW        3030-78      3.50      25.32          4.91         5/32                   600 @ 41


 D402
130/70-18  63H              BW        3020-78      3.00      25.27          5.18         6/32                   600 @ 41

Dealer put the D402 on the Front.  The Dunlop site says this from is for "custom applications."  As you can see, there is a difference in the recommended rim, a .05" difference in height and a .17" difference in width, the D402 being slightly lower and wider.  I road about 120 miles this past weekend with a passenger and the front seemed fine though I have a leaking rear shock for which the dealer has ordered a replacement.  Spent the entire ride bottoming out. 

I might be reading this wrong but is the D407's rim 0.5" wider then for the D402's?

[GregKhougaz]

I might be reading this wrong but is the D407's rim 0.5" wider then for the D402's?

That's the recommended wheel (rim) width. 

[GregKhougaz]

    UPDATE:

      No prompt response from Dunlop so I this morning I resent and then called their 800 number.  I spoke with Al Wittmeyer at Dunlop cusomer service.  After telling him my situation, he told me the D402F should not be used with the D407 Rear.  He said he would send a confirming e mail and here is is:

Gregory,

Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your motorcycle tire questions.  It is always best to match, exactly, tire brand, model and tread pattern whenever possible.  Correct matching of front and rear tires is important to obtain optimum performance and handling.  Mixing radial tires, or radials with non-radials, may adversely affect handling and stability.  That being said, we do NOT recommend using the Dunlop D402 and Dunlop D407 on the same vehicle at the same time.  The recommended replacement front tire is either the Dunlop D407F or the Dunlop D408F as both are compatible with the Dunlop D407 rear.                                                                           
             "Dunlop Tire"                                                 
             <website@dunlopmo                                             
             torcycle.com>                                             
To         awittmeyer@dunloptire.com           
             09/23/2009 02:20   cc              PM                                                           
             
Subject      Dunlop Tire Contact Form Submission

             Please respond to                                             
             GregKhougaz@earthlink.net                                         
                                                                           
****************************************
* Dunlop Tire Contact Form Submission  *
****************************************

Sent On : 9/23/2009 11:20:41 AM
From : Gregory Khougaz
Address : 1929 Idaho Ave.
City : Santa Monica
State : CA
Zip Code : 90403
Country : U.S.A.

Email : GregKhougaz@earthlink.net
Website :

Comments :
ON Sept. 15, I sent the following through this web site:

"Hello,  I have a 2009 Harley Davidson Screamin' Eagle Road Glide (FLTRSE3)with 10,000 miles.  I noticed that after I had the tires replaced, the rear is a D407 180/55B18 but the front is now a D402 130/70-18.  Is this front tire the correct (and current) proper application for this motorcycle???  Thank you very much in advance for your response."

Still awaiting response from Dunlop. Thank you!


Now I have to call HD customer service again! ! !

Any thought / comments? ?  Thanks! ! !

[LarryB]

my thoughts are this, buy a D408F and have it mounted elsewhere and be done with it. you got 9100 miles off the first set. your just gonna dig yourself a deeper hole.

[GregKhougaz]

damn greg, you sure have had your problems with your bike.

That's why I'm not inclined to let HD make me use the wrong tire or replace it at my expense! 

[jettjocky]

I just assumed this info had already been posted, while there is a cupping issue with the rear tire, it usually occurs near end of life say 12K, the front tire is another very compilcated issue, the tread pattern was put on the wrong way, simple as that.  During my last trip in Aug., I met up with a buddy that just has taken delivery of his 09 SERG.  First night at the motel we noticed that the front tread pattern was opposite of mine.........but both direction arrows were correct. Upon arriving in Rapid City I talked at great lenght with the Dunlop guys.  Only after great presistance did I obtain the true story.   Dunlop had completed all their testing and production QC & presented the tires to MOCO for approval.  The tires were approved and placement on the new bikes started.     THEN MOCO marketing noticed that the front tire was opposite of the tread pattern on the rear tire, & MOCO directed Dunlop to change the direction arrow (and tread pattern) so both were the same.  Of course Dunlop advise  that no real testing had been done on the front with the pattern the other way, but MOCO insisted & the change be made, Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, that is why the fronts are cupping @ about 12K, and that is why neither MOCO or Dunlop is taking responisbility for this problem, but will replace if you stay on them about it. . & yet I continue to see new 09s sitting in dealers with front instaled the wrong direction, &  that tire will cup out within the first 12K, & both MOCO & Dunlop do nothing because they know many new bikes never reach 12K before they are traded.   

[GregKhougaz]

JJ,  That's quite a story.  While I don't doubt you, if true, it would expose both HD and Dunlop to serious product liability litigation.  That does seem to explain the D407 vs. D408 issue, though. 

I have a call into HD customer service about the D402 the dealer put on mine.  As I explained above, dealer says this is what HD instructed.  Dunlop says no way.  HD customer service is supposed to get back to me but the person on the phone had never heard of a D402 being used on a SERG.     Should be interesting. 

[jettjocky]

I made up nothing believe me, that is what the Dunlop guys  told me (he was a Regional manager) , could they be covering that these new tires are simply just not as good as the old design, maybe, but I doubt it, tires tech. has come a long way, and tires (like most other items)   usually always get better...... not worse, when former fronts always got at least 30K miles (straight touring miles)  with really very real wear, & these new ones are cupped to the point of having to be replaced at 11K, then there is a problem, & we both  know Dunlop did endless testing on these tires prior to releasing them,  they just never spent much time testing the them put on in the incorrect direction from the direction they were designed for, , & that is what they told MOCO.  That is the explanation for the early released 09s having the front tread running one way, & then late released 09s have the tread running the other direction.

[GregKhougaz]

JJ,

I believe YOU.  And the story makes sense. 

But after my dealings with HD, I'm not sure I believe anything else!        

[jettjocky]

Yes I know what you mean, it's kinda rare, in my opinion,  that two companies in business together BOTH incorrectly address an issue like this.

[jettjocky]

UPDATE, as I had indicated "they" warrentied my rear about 70% of cost that had almost 12K on it, which I feel was very fair, was just advised that the front that "cupped" & had to be replaced @ 13,260mi  "they" warrentied 100% including labor, so I guess I'm a satisfied camper. These tires were replaced while on the "road" in Aug. by two different dealers, so my advise is if you want to file a warrenty claim  at replacement be sure that the dealer doing the work "holds" the tire as "they" usually want info & measurements off the tire.  And who is "they", the dealer isn't saying,  it's  either MOCO or Dunlop and  at this point I really don't care which.

[sblair]

For what its worth, A buddy (who is also a service writer at a dealer) states that the MoCo no longer performs warranty replacements on the D407's(this is from Corporate).  Good luck everyone!

Greg;
  You have got an awesome "get out of jail free card" from Dunlap.  Unfortunately (or fortunately) they do not make an D402 18" rear. 

[GregKhougaz]

...   Upon arriving in Rapid City I talked at great lenght with the Dunlop guys.  Only after great presistance did I obtain the true story.   Dunlop had completed all their testing and production QC & presented the tires to MOCO for approval.  The tires were approved and placement on the new bikes started.     THEN MOCO marketing noticed that the front tire was opposite of the tread pattern on the rear tire, & MOCO directed Dunlop to change the direction arrow (and tread pattern) so both were the same.  Of course Dunlop advise  that no real testing had been done on the front with the pattern the other way, but MOCO insisted & the change be made, Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, that is why the fronts are cupping @ about 12K, and that is why neither MOCO or Dunlop is taking responisbility for this problem, but will replace if you stay on them about it. . & yet I continue to see new 09s sitting in dealers with front instaled the wrong direction, &  that tire will cup out within the first 12K, & both MOCO & Dunlop do nothing because they know many new bikes never reach 12K before they are traded.   

Hey JJ, 

       Thought about this and realized that may explain the front tire (D407F) cupping but not the rear (D407R).  In my case, the rear was cupped more than the front.  Examination after removal showed the rear was cupped a lot more.  So, what would be the reason for that?     I'm just not sure I buy the claim that turning the tire around would cure the issue or that Dunlop would allow it and risk product liability lawsuits.  "Directional" tread is used for wet conditions. 

       BTW, still waiting for HD customer service to call back from Friday...   

[Diamondback]

 

[grc]

I think you just hit on something that I questioned once before Greg.  If the cupping and rapid wear was due to the tread pattern running backward, why have many rear tires with the tread supposedly running in the proper direction also shown cupping and abnormal wear? 

There is a lot more to this entire issue than what has been reported by Dunlop and Harley, and unless someone knows a high level insider at one of those companies that can be convinced to spill the beans, I doubt we will ever know the real story.  Of course, those who are having abnormal wear issues don't need to prove to anyone what the real issue is, just that the wear is not normal nor is it acceptable.  If H-D and/or Dunlop decide to jerk folks around and not step up, I still recommend filing a complaint with NHTSA (you can do it on-line) and then looking into what it would take to file in small claims court.  If Harley and Dunlop get enough chit thrown at them by NHTSA and the local courts, I'll bet they get off their duff and take care of the people.

JMHO - Jerry

[Diamondback]

 

[jettjocky]

I forgot to mention that the reason the rear was replaced @ 11,300, was that it was also cupped badly, (70% warrenty) however I was not too concerned because it did get to 11,300, so just in my opinion, there is a "cupping issue" on both tires,  then changing the rotation of the front wheel (100% warrenty @ 13,300) just added to to the problem.  From at least just what I have seen "someone" is I believe, addressing the replacement issue as I preceive these tires are being replaced, perhaps reluctedly under warrenty.

[Diamondback]

 

The rear is not as bad as the front.  Plus you don't normally hear or feel the rear like the front.

 

[bandit]

My front 407 was replaced under warranty. But I had to email this
issue up to the new Managing Director of Europe. He then kicked
down to the national sales director, dealer manager and dealer.
Got the seat replaced as well, a little better but still not satisfied.

Bandit

[Highjagger]

My front 407 was replaced under warranty. But I had to email this
issue up to the new Managing Director of Europe. He then kicked
down to the national sales director, dealer manager and dealer.
Got the seat replaced as well, a little better but still not satisfied.

Bandit

AHA , good job from you , in germany i had no success

[ice6900]

My front 407 was replaced under warranty. But I had to email this
issue up to the new Managing Director of Europe. He then kicked
down to the national sales director, dealer manager and dealer.
Got the seat replaced as well, a little better but still not satisfied.

Bandit

I have also had success going along the same route as Bandit,
going to the higher echelons has also helped me in the past to get a replacment petrol tank, well done Bruno

[GregKhougaz]

I have found that polite persistence works with HD customer service.  They have to give some resistance or they'd be doing too much, I imagine.  Probably best not to mention anything "legal."  It appears that the customer service reps are instructed to just stop talking if you do. 

Interesting that I have still not gotten a call back from HD re the D402F dealer installed and that Dunlop says should not have been.    On the other hand, the SERG seems to ride fine with the 402 on the front.  I have not pushed it at all though.   Dunlop's comments and e mail concern me but I take them with "salt."

Jerry is right, above.  It makes no sense that with all the testing these companies do, that we have this much of an issue with the tires. 

GK

[Diamondback]

 

So they will only replace those bikes for which the owners (whom ride the most) complain the loudest.

Not good customer relations..

 

[LETS_ROLL]

Just thought I post my recent experiece with a cuping issue and taking it to the dealer.
Went to the dealer and told them what was happening with my front tire and the service manager was like, no sweat got a recall notice right here. You have to be with in the guide lines of course, like X amount of thread life left, wich I had only 7800 miles on the tire.  They are putting a 408 tire on the bike no charge. Let's Roll

[GregKhougaz]

Gabe, 

     Let us know if you can get a copy of the recall notice.  Thanks! !

Greg

[04se103]

Just thought I post my recent experiece with a cuping issue and taking it to the dealer.
Went to the dealer and told them what was happening with my front tire and the service manager was like, no sweat got a recall notice right here. You have to be with in the guide lines of course, like X amount of thread life left, wich I had only 7800 miles on the tire.  They are putting a 408 tire on the bike no charge. Let's Roll

That's the way my experience went with my Dealer Saturday new 408 replaced 407  

[grc]

Just thought I post my recent experiece with a cuping issue and taking it to the dealer.
Went to the dealer and told them what was happening with my front tire and the service manager was like, no sweat got a recall notice right here. You have to be with in the guide lines of course, like X amount of thread life left, wich I had only 7800 miles on the tire.  They are putting a 408 tire on the bike no charge. Let's Roll

It would be nice to know the details of that notice or bulletin.  As in what are they going to do for those who had to buy new tires previously because H-D blew them off?  If this is a true recall, and not just another so-called H-D "enhancement" program, there should be recourse for those who had to pay previously for new tires.

Jerry

[GregKhougaz]

Anybody??     Let us know if you can get a copy of the tire recall notice.  Thanks! !

Update:  Debbie from HD customer service finally called me back today (after I had called her again) and says I was supposed to get a D408 and that the dealer had been instructed.  She says that she thought it was already taken care of.  I'm supposed to receive a call from the service dept at dealer tomorrow to come in and get the D408.  Really tired of this!   

[Diamondback]

 

[grc]

I just finished searching the NHTSA web site for recalls or defect investigations for either H-D or Dunlop, and came up with nothing for this issue.  Odds are this isn't a safety recall, but another H-D program.  If anyone gets hold of a copy, they need to post it so other's can print it out and take it to their dealer. 

Jerry

[LarryB]

HD stock couldn't handle it, this is left to dealer discression, no cross the board recall.

[GregKhougaz]

       If the sequence of events was as jettjockey was told above, (Reply #14) it could be easily documented or "discovered" if there were ever litigation over this.  If it came out that HD insisted turning the tire around for cosmetic reasons and Dunlop complied, it would be embarrasing to both, to say the least.  I thus think that HD will replace cupped tires within reason for those who complain (see reply above re "polite persistance"). 

       This may be a dealer discretion item at first.  My dealer was no help.  That may be because HD is not paying the dealers for their labor.  Once I went to HD customer service, it got handled though even then I had to go back and forth between HD and dealer several times.  Dealer says HD sent wrong tire (D402) but HD is silent.  I'd call the whole thing a cluster f___ ! 

[jettjocky]

Will, after all that has been said & speculated, I agree with your summary of the situation, 

[DICKW]

I'd call the whole thing a cluster f___ ! 

I agree with you.

I talked to my dealer on Friday and called MOCO and they are replacing my tire (no charge) with an 408................... took a total of 15 minutes. Quite a few miles on it too.


Some dealers 

[GregKhougaz]

Finally got my 408F, today! Does not feel noticably different than the 402 but at least it's what Dunlop says should be on there. 

Let the cupping begin? ! ? ! ?                     

[LarryB]

Finally got my 408F, today! Does not feel noticably different than the 402 but at least it's what Dunlop says should be on there. 

Let the cupping begin? ! ? ! ?                     

Greg, I got 6k on my 408f and it's fine. just sayin. but I got 13.5k on my 407f

[GregKhougaz]

They took my original D407 tires off at about 9,100 miles.  The rear was far worse than the front.  I've heard from UFO_HOG (Bryan) and others the 408F works well. 

But what about the rear?

[sem_bunda]

I've got the 408F and 407R, almost 12k miles and no cupping, barely noticeable whining noise from rear that disappears if I have BSR or t-bag on.  I would think by now the cupping would have begun.  Can't be road conditions because I've been on all kinds of roads in several states.  What gives for so many SERG to have cupping and others not?  Doesn't make sense to me.

I noticed on one of the replies earlier someone mentioned getting 30k on a tire?

[GregKhougaz]

I think the "whining" is indicative of cupping.  But if it's only barely noticable after 12K miles... that's very good!

[Highjagger]

The second set of tires now ( front 408 , rear 407 ) was better than the first , they both will be replaced today because cupping started again with about 8k miles on them , i hear them whining .
 When I look at the front-tire then i can see that the right side is more cupped than the left one , that is because of driving right side of street than you have right-turns that are closer than all left-turns on the street , so you have to brake more for right turns and you have to lean more into them .
The rest of the tire would still be good for another 5k miles riding straight on .
But it is getting winter and a new set of tires should be not the cause of slippering .
Also the rear tire would be goog enough for another 5k miles in the summer (but not in the winter) for me .
The tires on my Fatboy had to be replaced at maximum 4k miles , so 8k on the SERG is double , i don`t want to complain.
And it is surely a question of riding style , aggressive or not , how much miles the tires will be good enough . 

[DICKW]

I managed to get 14,300 out of my first set. I was happy with that.

[Highjagger]

I managed to get 14,300 out of my first set. I was happy with that.

That shows that you are able to handle your bike carefully enough to save your tires , i wish i could also .

[hdbrad03]

Dealer just replace my rear D407 it was cupped 3/32. The bike had 10700 miles. Sure is nice to ride a quite bike again, hard to beleive the cupped tire made that much noise.


 
      Brad

[GregKhougaz]

Brad,  Great jog.        If you don't mind, please tell us what you had to do to get the replacement.  It may help some of the folks here.  Thanks! 

[hdbrad03]

Brad,  Great jog.      If you don't mind, please tell us what you had to do to get the replacement.  It may help some of the folks here.  Thanks!  

I just asked and 2 hours later I had a new tire installed including labor (same with the front tire 2 months ago new D408). My dealer understands the D407 are junk!! The shop foreman had just returned from the Mother Ship in Milwaukee and they had allot of discussions on the D407 issues he claimed.

 
      Brad

[charles05663]

I took Petunia in yesterday for her final service of the year before she goes into storage for the winter.    The service manager called me today and informed me that the front D407 tire is starting to cup.  Then he ask me if they could replace my D407 front tire with a D408 at no cost.      I guess it was starting to show at 4400 miles.

The dealer took a big jump in warm and fuzzies today.

[Highjagger]

good service from the dealer , wish all would be like him .