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[DHTDHT]

Your concerns are very similar to mine. When I took delivery of my SE 110 Springer, I could feel excessive heat pouring off the engine, and then became aware of the lean factory condtions.  But unlike many here, I found the stock SE mufflers sufficiently loud and the bike sufficiently torquey. Yours will have 10 more ft-lbs. of torque than mine — that is how the dresser is factory tuned.  For me, I wanted the bike to run cooler as a first priority, and also be able to do future mods if needed.  I did the SERT only, and achieved the proper A/F ratio. The bike runs much cooler now. Our dealer in Arizona has noted overheating problems with the SE Electraglide and the Road King, but not with the Dyna and Springer.

I don't think you'll lose a thing by addressing the AF ratio first and doing no mods, be that with a SERT or a PC.  Ride the bike a while with a richer mixture, then decide for yourself if you want a louder and more potent bike. You can always change pipes and programs later. As some of the above posts allude, the cross-over pipe "may" give more low end torque.

[Fired00d]

Your concerns are very similar to mine. When I took delivery of my SE 110 Springer, I could feel excessive heat pouring off the engine, and then became aware of the lean factory condtions.  But unlike many here, I found the stock SE mufflers sufficiently loud and the bike sufficiently torquey. Yours will have 10 more ft-lbs. of torque than mine — that is how the dresser is factory tuned.  For me, I wanted the bike to run cooler as a first priority, and also be able to do future mods if needed.  I did the [highlight]SERK[/highlight] only, and achieved the proper A/F ratio. The bike runs much cooler now. Our dealer in Arizona has noted overheating problems with the SE Electraglide and the Road King, but not with the Dyna and Springer.

I don't think you'll lose a thing by addressing the AF ratio first and doing no mods, be that with a [highlight]SERK[/highlight] or a PC.  Ride the bike a while with a richer mixture, then decide for yourself if you want a louder and more potent bike. You can always change pipes and programs later. As some of the above posts allude, the cross-over pipe "may" give more low end torque.

I'm thinking you mean SERT/Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in the highlighted statements above?

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Rhino]

Hi WO,

Just thought I would add  my 02.  So far everyone's suggestions seem pretty good.  It comes down to personal preference.  I disagree that warranty will be voided with any mild changes, even sert.  99% of dealers will cover, especially your own.  There are a few dealers that really suck, and only want to sell accessories, no engine anything.  Stay away from them and you will have a great time.  Larger dealers are really into the modifications, and certainly any one of those will tow the line if they approve an install.  

But as far as performance, the reality is that there is not going to be ANY seat-of-the-pants discernable difference when you go to your choice of aftermarket Air Filter (say more intake air), slip on's  (more exhaust air flow) or true duals (more air flow but less torque than stock crossover arrangement and slip on's) versus stock, and finally, 2 gozinta 1's (more torque than TD's and Stock, but naked on one side)    But when you make the change over from stock, whatever your choice, make sure you have a way to change, and monitor, the air fuel across the board.  Of course more fuel will run the motor cooler, but to much and it is inefficient.  To lean, well, you are defeating the purpose then.

Stay away (IMHO [smiley=nervous.gif])...from gadgets that lie to your ecm. Here's why.  If for some reason you had a failure of the add on lying machine, you will be running so lean that you can burn stuff up.  So you now have a bike you should not ride, and should get to a dealer.  If you had a SERT installed by Harley, why enjoy the warranty. The first map costs, and any good dyno shop came make it right because you travel with the inteface module. And that's only if you have a problem.  But if you got one of those funky market hype Fuel Pacages for example, and it fails, what are ya gonna do?  Roll into your harley dealer and buy another one or wait for an exchange or repair? Or just have em plug the SERT Module in and get you going fast. Any way I see it is this:  If Harley's ECM codes are secret, and they want to sell you a sert for the privledge of using a map that can be changed, to specifically change fuel to handle open air systems, so be it.  But to try and run aftermarket and not change to a SERT? Well, THAT would be a warranty breaker for sure.

JMnotsoHO

Rhino

[size=8]Welcome to fantasyland[/size]

[Hoist!]

Va,
The bike I heard them on was an '05 Ultra w/a 95 big bore kit.  For some reason, and I've never been accused of having great hearing, they sounded "flat" and didn't have the rumble that I want in my exhaust.  When he rev'd the bike up when leaving the parking lot, they just seemed to lack any character, IMHO.  It's hard to describe, but they just didn't do anything for me.  And I wasn't too impressed with the looks from behind.  Obviously, I like the oval look, but these are almost retangular.  I'm not trying to flame anyone that has them or is thinking about getting them.  I know I wouldn't have been happy with them.  But that's just me.  I know web sound files can be misleading but go to this link  http://www.sscycle.com/ and click on "Feature" and then click on the sound file for the SPO mufflers.  What I heard is pretty dog gone close to that sound.  This link is a fairly good representation of the Vance and Hines Ovals.  click on the link then, "hear the oval slip-ons" : http://www.vanceandhines.com/a201_ovals_drs.html
Red

Hey RD, Thanks for the congrats. Your post is good to compare these two mufflers. Open both sites up in separate windows. Put the S&S site on top of the V&H site, where you can hit the V&H play button right after the S&S sound ends. The end of the S&S is the bike pulling away. That's all the V&H gives you. You can compare them next to each other. Try to use a decent sound sys. with subwoofer and crank it up a little. Compared to what I've heard with these mufflers live, these are accurate reproductions, to my ear. The S&S are quieter and deeper, muffled hot-rod style. The V&H can bark a little louder but seem to resonate a little more. It's amazing how much different peoples ears are when it comes to this. You like the V&H, I like the S&S. We both love our bikes and the way they sound! Hoist!  8-)

[Hoist!]

Hi WO,

Just thought I would add  my 02.  So far everyone's suggestions seem pretty good.  It comes down to personal preference.  I disagree that warranty will be voided with any mild changes, even sert.  99% of dealers will cover, especially your own.  There are a few dealers that really suck, and only want to sell accessories, no engine anything.  Stay away from them and you will have a great time.  Larger dealers are really into the modifications, and certainly any one of those will tow the line if they approve an install.  

But as far as performance, the reality is that there is not going to be ANY seat-of-the-pants discernable difference when you go to your choice of aftermarket Air Filter (say more intake air), slip on's  (more exhaust air flow) or true duals (more air flow but less torque than stock crossover arrangement and slip on's) versus stock, and finally, 2 gozinta 1's (more torque than TD's and Stock, but naked on one side)    But when you make the change over from stock, whatever your choice, make sure you have a way to change, and monitor, the air fuel across the board.  Of course more fuel will run the motor cooler, but to much and it is inefficient.  To lean, well, you are defeating the purpose then.

Stay away (IMHO [smiley=nervous.gif])...from gadgets that lie to your ecm. Here's why.  If for some reason you had a failure of the add on lying machine, you will be running so lean that you can burn stuff up.  So you now have a bike you should not ride, and should get to a dealer.  If you had a SERT installed by Harley, why enjoy the warranty. The first map costs, and any good dyno shop came make it right because you travel with the inteface module. And that's only if you have a problem.  But if you got one of those funky market hype Fuel Pacages for example, and it fails, what are ya gonna do?  Roll into your harley dealer and buy another one or wait for an exchange or repair? Or just have em plug the SERT Module in and get you going fast. Any way I see it is this:  If Harley's ECM codes are secret, and they want to sell you a sert for the privledge of using a map that can be changed, to specifically change fuel to handle open air systems, so be it.  But to try and run aftermarket and not change to a SERT? Well, THAT would be a warranty breaker for sure.

JMnotsoHO

Rhino

[size=8]Welcome to fantasyland[/size]

The other side.

First you need to determine what level of mods you're planning to do. If all you're doing is "open air" A/C and pipes, a stock '07 HD can handle this with no ECM modifications. This is per HD. Therefore your bike should be able to run fine, without doing any damage by running too lean, no worse than as stock. The narrow band closed loop system is supposed to account for this. Do I believe this? NO. The stock isn't even right! However, this allows me to pull off the PC and O2 Elims and get to any dealer to look at my bike under warranty. This also gives me the flexibility of having who I want to do my service and mods instead of being locked into a dealer. I'm not saying all dealers won't allow you warranty flexibility, but this way any dealer should have to honor it. I've thought long and hard about this one. I think this solution makes sense. What am I missing? It is a tough choice! This arguement doesn't apply at all if you're planning any more work than we're talking here. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

Hey RD, Thanks for the congrats. Your post is good to compare these two mufflers. Open both sites up in separate windows. Put the S&S site on top of the V&H site, where you can hit the V&H play button right after the S&S sound ends. The end of the S&S is the bike pulling away. That's all the V&H gives you. You can compare them next to each other. Try to use a decent sound sys. with subwoofer and crank it up a little. Compared to what I've heard with these mufflers live, these are accurate reproductions, to my ear. The S&S are quieter and deeper, muffled hot-rod style. The V&H can bark a little louder but seem to resonate a little more. [highlight]It's amazing how much different peoples ears are when it comes to this. You like the V&H, I like the S&S. We both love our bikes and the way they sound![/highlight] Hoist!  8-)

You're absolutely right Hoist, that's why I always say what I do..."the only person that has to like, or be happy with, what you put on your machine, is you."   Everyone has different tastes and likes, that's why there's soooooooooooooo many choices out there.   As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter which way you go, as long as you're happy, and keeps you in the saddle and on the road. Cuz, that's what it's all about, ridin in the wind. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  And you're right on the sounds, with some fairly good speakers, they are pretty dog gone realistic. 8-)
Red

[Fired00d]

....  And you're right on the sounds, with some fairly good speakers, they are pretty dog gone realistic. 8-)
Red

That's no joke. I have some what I would say are "fairly good speakers" (surround sound, center speaker, and woofer) and and I could definitely say the sound is nice. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[RedDevil]

That's no joke. I have some what I would say are "fairly good speakers" (surround sound, center speaker, and woofer) and and I could definitely say the sound is nice. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Sounds like you've got a nice setup for your 'puter.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  I've been trying to find a sound bite for the Rineharts, but haven't had any luck.  Maybe someone with a set could make one and we could post all the sound bites.  They're not perfect, but they would give some idea as to what the different mufflers sound like, and could be more helpful in deciding what is "best" for each individual's tastes.  Just a thought....

Red

[Fired00d]

.....I've been trying to find a sound bite for the Rineharts, but haven't had any luck.....

Red

I've got one (Rinehart) but its in MP3 format, can't post it, but I can email it to you if you want. Send me a PM w/email address.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[RedDevil]

I've got one (Rinehart) but its in MP3 format, can't post it, but I can email it to you if you want. Send me a PM w/email address.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

d00d,
Thanks for the offer.  I was fortunate to get to hear a side-by-side comparrison at my dealership with the V&H Ovals and the Rineharts.   It was a really tough decision as to which way to go.  They priced about about equally, the dealer said they provided roughly the same performance characteristics, and it boiled down to which sound and looks I wanted to go with.   Both mufflers, IMHO, sound great.   I was hoping that we could post sound bites on the forum so that others can get an idea of what the various mufflers sound like.  To me it's an important decision.  It's like an audio system, you can have the best top-of-the-line receiver, amp, digital media, but if your speakers don't sound right, it makes the whole system sound bad.   Kind of the same with the mufflers....if they don't sound the way you like them, then it kind of changes the way you feel about the whole setup.  It was just a thought....I don't know if anyone else would be interested in something like that.   Either way, I'm planning on taking advantage of the 50 degree weather here today and getting out on the ride.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Red

[Fired00d]

d00d,
Thanks for the offer.  I was fortunate to get to hear a side-by-side comparrison at my dealership with the V&H Ovals and the Rineharts......   Either way, I'm planning on taking advantage of the 50 degree weather here today and getting out on the ride.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Red

No problem, have a great ride today. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[SilverDawg]

Was at a Harley store today and got to hear what a set of RH true duals sound like in person.

They were installed on an 05 SE and they sounded great.  Could only listen for about 5 seconds, but long enough to pretty much make up my mind to do with RH.  Now, do I go slips, or TD?  Decisions, decisions. [smiley=nervous.gif]

[GC_Super]

Cobalt, the true dual RH's will sound toatlly different than the RH slip ons. The stock crossover sends most of the flow out the right side, where the duals are more equal and will be much louder.

[Hoist!]

Cobalt, the true dual RH's will sound toatlly different than the RH slip ons. The stock crossover sends most of the flow out the right side, where the duals are more equal and will be much louder.

That being said, what kind of difference would you notice with the stepdown RH TD's vs. the RH Slip-ons w/TD headpipes (smaller version muffler)? Thanks. Hoist!  8-)

[GC_Super]

Hoist, to me, after looking at lots of dynos, the RH duals seem to produce the most HP, but at the expense of torque in the lower rpms. Compared to a V&H dual that's not stepped, the V&H's are better down low. Granted, the seat of the pants dyno may not notice the difference, it's just what shows up on a dyno.
I'm sort of a pipe freak, I've had them all. Rineharts, V&H, FAt Cat, slip ons, modified this and modified that.  It all boils down to what you like personally and more importantly, how it feel to you on your particular bike. A pipe like the Fat Cat can sound TOTALLY different with different motors and especially cams. I wish someone would tell me what the perfect pipe is so I could stop adding supplies to build a chrome fence.