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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: J.D. on December 26, 2017, 09:28:43 PM
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I've run a number of different primary oils including the Red Line MTL and "wet clutch" motorcycle engine oils. RL seemed good and came out nice and clean but felt like it lost some clutch feel (engagement point) and seems relatively low viscosity. Actually the 10w-40 and 20w-50 synthetic motorcycle oils felt really nice and are quite a bit less expensive (and available locally).
In my mind the oil has do not only (first and foremost) work with the clutch but also lube everything internally (chain, compensator) and protect the seals.
I generally buy it by the case and it's that time again. What is the soup du jour?
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well, i've been using shell rotella t 15w-40 diesel engine oil. it is jaso rated for wet clutch use and runs about $14.00 for a gallon jug of it. never any issue with clutch slippage or the like. been using it for nigh on 7 years now i guess. i have always, and continue to do so, change the primary oil every 5k miles. same time as the engine oil. did the clutch adjustment at the same time. with the hydraulic clutch, don't have to adjust, but still change at the 5k interval. i do let my tranny oil go for the full 20k. figure if it can last over 100k in a car, then it should be able to withstand the 20k interval the hd engineers spec.
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Diesel oil interesting. Can't wait to see what others think...
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Is that the "wet clutch" spec (jaso)?
Edit: looks like the "wet clutch" compatible spec is JASO MA or JASO MA2. Is this correct?
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It's syn3 for me in all the holes. Easy-peazy to find, carry a quart on trips if anything gets low and I've had no issues for many years going this route.
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Mobil 1 Automatic Trans Fluid. Auto trans fluids have to be fully compatible with clutches, since the average AT has several internal clutch packs. They also have to lubricate chains and gears and operate under high heat and load conditions.
I've tried many fluids over the years and the ATF has done the best job of reducing the Harley clutch drag issue, resulting in smoother shifting.
Jerry
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Jerry, what do you mean by the "Harley clutch drag" issue?
Is this the oil: https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-transmission-fluid/synthetic-atf (https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-transmission-fluid/synthetic-atf)
If so, this is very low viscosity stuff, down around Dexron VI territory. Much lower than even RL MTL.
How is the engagement "feel" of this ATF. Something I might be interested in trying.
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well, i've been using shell rotella t 15w-40 diesel engine oil. it is jaso rated for wet clutch use and runs about $14.00 for a gallon jug of it. never any issue with clutch slippage or the like. been using it for nigh on 7 years now i guess. i have always, and continue to do so, change the primary oil every 5k miles. same time as the engine oil. did the clutch adjustment at the same time. with the hydraulic clutch, don't have to adjust, but still change at the 5k interval. i do let my tranny oil go for the full 20k. figure if it can last over 100k in a car, then it should be able to withstand the 20k interval the hd engineers spec.
I have been thinking of going the Rotella route also, there is always a couple gallons on the shelf for the truck, its cheap, and available everywhere.
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Jerry, what do you mean by the "Harley clutch drag" issue?
Is this the oil: https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-transmission-fluid/synthetic-atf (https://mobiloil.com/en/automatic-transmission-fluid/synthetic-atf)
If so, this is very low viscosity stuff, down around Dexron VI territory. Much lower than even RL MTL.
How is the engagement "feel" of this ATF. Something I might be interested in trying.
Yes, the official name is Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF (multi-vehicle) and it can be used in many different brands.
Many of the shifting and clunk issues with Harley transmissions could always be traced to a clutch that didn't release completely, especially the older five speed models. I tried a lot of different lubes since 1999 to improve the issue, mostly various types of gear oils that claimed to be clutch compatible and usually in the 75w80 viscosity range. None of them seemed to be significantly better in terms of clutch performance, until I decided to try ATF. I kept thinking about how low viscosity ATF seemed to work fine in automotive applications in not only clutch operation, but also in protecting gears and shafts as well as chains in transaxles and transfer cases. It was used in many manual gearboxes as well. I tried it in my bike, and immediately found it reduced the clunk on engagement that every Harley rider has complained about pretty much forever.
Give it a try and see what you think.
Jerry
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Thanks for the explanation.
How is the engagement "feel" of this vs. the typical primary oils? By that I mean when the clutch starts to grab and when it is fully engaged? What I find with most if not all of the modern "wet clutch" synthetics is the (properly adjusted and not worn) clutch seems to begin to grab when the hand lever is about 75% of the way out and fully engages pretty much when the lever is fully released. I even upgraded the clutch release ramps to the latest updated version to help this (still using the stock/medium diaphragm spring), which it did to a certain extent, but still not the low-speed feel I'd like.
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I use ATF in the primary as well. Specified by clutch manufacturer (barnett), seemed reasonable. Works great, never an issue. Even have used B&M trick shift. It works just as great as any brand name ATF. It's blue color clearly identifies itself as the primary fluid.
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I'm sticking with the H-D Formula +. It's Certified-Tested by the moco and meets all their specs. If there is ever a failure there's no warranty or ESP question. And as an added benefit I also use it in the tranny. That way when some migrates from the tranny to the primary I can just drain it from the primary and add it to the tranny. EZ PZ. :2vrolijk_21:
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How's the clutch feel of the F+ vs. something like SYN3?
How can the fluid migrate from the transmission to the primary?
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ATF gets my vote, been using it for years & years.
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That same Mobil-1 synthetic ATF?
Just checked online; this stuff is $11/qt. Will probably pass on it for now.
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How's the clutch feel of the F+ vs. something like SYN3?
How can the fluid migrate from the transmission to the primary?
Now I know primary & tranny fluid is right nextdoor to motor oil as far as firmly held opinions go. I can only speak to my personal experience using Syn 3, Red Line primary & tranny oils, and Formula +. Frankly I cannot tell much difference. I will say that my later model H-Ds have been much improved as far as the first gear clunk and smooth shifting is concerned. Perhaps a different lubricant does in fact aid older model bikes.
As far as fluid migrating from the tranny to the primary - it's a known problem at least since the 2014MY. Here's a recent link from right here on the forum:
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=114392.0
Of course my remark was an attempt at humor - dark humor, but humor nonetheless.
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How's the clutch feel of the F+ vs. something like SYN3?
How can the fluid migrate from the transmission to the primary?
A relatively recent issue where the fluid bypass the input shaft oil seal and winds up in the primary. There's a thread around here talking about it, late model Twin Cams and 2017 and up M8's.
As for engagement feel with ATF, I haven't noticed a significant difference. Of course I'm running a 2005 so my results may not mean much to someone with a 2007 and later primary and clutch.
Jerry
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Thanks for the information. Mine's a 2002 and I'm not current on some of the recent issues. I've been fortunate I suppose with pretty much issue-free compensator and clutch performance.
Lots of good information here to digest. Thanks to everyone who responded. Found a lot of good internet chatter about ATF as well.
All things considered, I will say I'm leaning toward sticking with the wet clutch compatible 10w-40 or 20w-50 (apparently JASO MA spec) motor oil but haven't yet made a final decision.
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Mobil 1 Automatic Trans Fluid. Auto trans fluids have to be fully compatible with clutches, since the average AT has several internal clutch packs. They also have to lubricate chains and gears and operate under high heat and load conditions.
I've tried many fluids over the years and the ATF has done the best job of reducing the Harley clutch drag issue, resulting in smoother shifting.
Jerry
Best answer on this thread. It doesn't have to be Mobil 1. Any good ATF will get the job done. If it doesn't you have another problem not related to fluid.
John
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thinking ATF would hurt the compensator.
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My thinking is the ATF is very low viscosity since it needs to be pumped in a conventional auto transmission.
In our primitive primaries, too thick of course you'll start to see clutch engagement issues but too thin you might lose some of the desirable lubrication properties.
Fortunately oil technology has progressed to the point where alot of lubricants meet multiple requirements (i.e. SYN3). So then we have the luxury of picking our favorite based on whatever criteria is most important.
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thinking ATF would hurt the compensator.
The 2007 and later compensator issues aren't caused by the lubricant, they are caused by a bad design. Harley relies on splash lubrication (lube is thrown around the primary chaincase due to the action of the chain and sprockets), and the design of the compensator didn't allow lubricant to get into some of the highest wear areas. Get enough lube into those areas, and use harder and smoother surfaces for the sliding elements, and the problems would most likely be history.
JMHO - Jerry
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One would think if the Motor Company thought they could make more money selling ATF for the primary they would specify it in the owner's manual.
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I believe the SYN3 "program" is designed to maximize profit.
Any factory lubricants and maintenance recommendations have to strike a balance between economy and reliability. With that said, the MoCo likely doesn't want these bikes to last too long as there's alot of money in both service and new sales.
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Is that the "wet clutch" spec (jaso)?
Edit: looks like the "wet clutch" compatible spec is JASO MA or JASO MA2. Is this correct?
there is ma, mb, and ma2. ma2 is a newer specification.
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So then MB you wouldn't want to use in the primary, correct?
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yep, you're right. mb is recommended for scooters. the rotella that i use is ma rated.
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Based on this link (https://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php (https://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/JASO_MA_JASO_MB.php)) it seems the JASO MA2 spec motor oils would offer the best friction characteristics for wet clutch use.
I liked the cold feel of the Valvoline synthetic 10w-40 bit like the idea of having the thicker 20w-50 when good and hot.
I would also like to stay under $10/qt.
I don't really see any immediate advantage to switching to the lighter Red Line MTL ($20/qt) or even lighter yet ATF ($11/qt).
What I decided on this time is Castrol full synthetic motorcycle 10w-50. Viscosity specs would indicate it is just a bit more viscous than the Valvoline 10w-40 cold and just a bit less viscous than the 20w-50 when hot, but close. It also meets the JASO MA2 spec. Reviews from other (non-Harley) power sports websites would suggest people are happy with their clutch feel and performance on this oil. Best part is I was able to find it online for well under $10/qt.
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The 2007 and later compensator issues aren't caused by the lubricant, they are caused by a bad design. Harley relies on splash lubrication (lube is thrown around the primary chaincase due to the action of the chain and sprockets), and the design of the compensator didn't allow lubricant to get into some of the highest wear areas. Get enough lube into those areas, and use harder and smoother surfaces for the sliding elements, and the problems would most likely be history.
JMHO - Jerry
X-2, what little lubricant gets there, they recommend lubricant should be GL1 rated, not sure about ATF. RL is GL-5, HD formula plus is GL-3. I threw a Copmpensaver in mine , to compensate..( no pun intended) for HD 's lack of engineering ..maybe it will live a little longer..
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Mobil 1 ATF is what i run after a clutch change i have built manual and automatic transmissions and gear drives it makes sense think about it would you put motor oil in your automatic transmission? this is what works for me.
RIDE SAFE...
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Still isn't really making sense to me, but if it works for you no reason to switch.
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ATF will hold up better than oil in most cases. I had a severe draw on a metal stamping in a die running on a 600 ton press. Could not get the form to stop cracking no matter what lubricant we tried. I got a quart of ATF put it in a spray bottle and wet the metal prior to the form station and bang problem cured no cracks whatsoever. I honestly never thought of running it in my primary till now even though I ran it in my dirt bikes years ago.
Thanks for the post.
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Interesting on the ATF. I'm inclined to give ATF a try but by Using ATF what affect dose it have on service milage?
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shouldn't have any effect on service mileage. atf is similar to a 15-20 wt oil. the main difference is that atf does not have the detergent additive package that engine oil has mainly because the transmission does not have to deal with combustion by products. also, does not have a lot of the friction modifiers that you find in engine oils, good for not having clutch slippage.
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Interesting information in these post regarding oils. A different animal I know used some of the oils mentioned in the threads with good results my dirt/mx bikes over the years: Ford ATF in a bike w/ sintered bronze plates and like Chains mentioned put Rotella 15/40 in my modern 4 stroke mx bikes.
Currently in my `15 S.G.S.G. with 10 k miles and started using 20/50 Amsoil & Lucas oil stabilizer 50/50. Seems to work or respectably hot and cold. My bike had H.D. synthetic oil at 5500 mi. and I tried Red Line primary oil once, but instantly noticed a lot of noise coming from front of primary suspecting from the compensator with the thinner oil.
I am paranoid about compensator failure with all of the talk about compensators going bad and feel oil with heavier viscosity might be better protection knowingly sacrificing clutch action. I`m no H.D. expert, but from my automotive engine building days the Lucas leaves a nice oil film on internal parts so hoping this recipe will prolong the compensators life.
Do not expect perfect clutch operation until I can change it to a different one my bike has the dreaded A&S clutch had issues from day 1 and is a sore spot with me know there are lots of threads on that topic lol.
Donnie
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Do not expect perfect clutch operation until I can change it to a different one my bike has the dreaded A&S clutch had issues from day 1 and is a sore spot with me know there are lots of threads on that topic lol.
what problems have you had with the a&s clutch? i've had mine since 2013 and have had no problems since day 1. other than the friction point being near the end of travel of the lever, which i have addressed with the oberon adjustable clutch lever.
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Bike had 5033 miles on test ride the clutch had a super late clutch engagement, no gradual application more of and on application, also rattling and odd vibration/clunk in clutch lever and inconsistent mushy clutch application.
Hydraulic action always been good. Got a lot of fluff from dealer and MoCo stating within H.D. specs no problem found. Eventually a new clutch master and complete clutch assembly and it worked properly and after 1500 miles now going bad again w same issues with zero abuse. If you want to call me I can give you more info.
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shouldn't have any effect on service mileage. atf is similar to a 15-20 wt oil. the main difference is that atf does not have the detergent additive package that engine oil has mainly because the transmission does not have to deal with combustion by products. also, does not have a lot of the friction modifiers that you find in engine oils, good for not having clutch slippage.
I've had no issues with clutch slippage but do have some drag. My 07 is still running it's stock clutch and compensater. I've found by giving a quick short rev reduces or eliminates the clunk if I time it right.
I'm using Motul 4T 7000 fully synthetic 20w50 (a red oil) in all three holes. I have another 2k to go before the next service. I did a oil check just last week and the motor oil is still clean can see though it same thing with the primary.
If using ATF can eliminate clutch drag that I do have at the moment the drag I can reduce again by short revs when moving backwards or pop into N.
When I had my primary apart to replace the clutch hub and inner primary case bearing ( a failure of my own doing, but that's another story) the comp was in good condition, no wear ridges.
I hadn't really thought about it before but ATF being used in auto Trans power steering pumps and I know it's used in planetary drives it would work for a primary.
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ATF is thin as it works similar to hydraulic oil in automatic transmissions and power steering pumps.
Here's some viscosity data (taken from published documents from the respective manufacturer's websites) for those into this sort of thing.
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And here's the chart for the visual.
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is there any way to put up a poll up so we can check witch oil we use and how about a break in the years because there so different like 06 and down 07-13 and 14 and up when hd put that tray in the primary and that new clutch or no use doing that what do you think
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Seems the early bikes will run on just about anything, mainly comes down to personal preference.
On the newer bikes, it would be interesting to see if there is any correlation between oil type and miles to compensator failure.
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Before assuming higher viscosity oil is preferred for the compensator, be aware that the problem with the compensators is the lube isn't getting into the areas where it's needed. A higher viscosity lube isn't going to fix that, and in fact could make it worse. ATF is a lot tougher than some of you seem to think it is, and it is subjected to a lot more in the typical automotive transmissions, transaxles, transfer cases, and even manual transmissions than anything your Harley is liable to encounter. The early SE compensators didn't survive long even for those using MTL in place of the SYN3. A different lube didn't and won't fix bad design and material choices.
Jerry
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Exactly. Do the lighter viscosity oils somehow penetrate those difficult areas better than the heavier oils and ultimately provide better protection? It would be interesting to see if there is some sort of correlation there.
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ATF and light oils do better in splash lube applications because they slash more. In submerged applications heavier oils may or may not do better but usually do better.
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I'm leery of Comp life with ATF :nervous: for years, reading about '07 & later (premature) Compensator issues on several HD Forums, the common element seemed to be ATF with Aftermarket Clutches,,, might be other common elements but none posted :confused5: I have witnessed some of my Buds (running ATF) changing Comps consistently at 20k
Most all of the Aftermarket Clutch Vendors recommend ATF because none seem to have a clue how to manufacture a Clutch to work properly with CVO Hydraulic actuation :nixweiss: stack height, rod length, etc...
Since I got the '09 SERG in '12 (2,420 mi.) I've used Formula+ and just recently went to Redline Primary Fluid. For the last 30k or so I've been doing my own services and change the Primary Fluid with the Engine Oil,,, Transmission gets a qt of RL Shockproof every other oil change...
When going to the Alto Carbonite Plate Kit, the Clutch actuation, friction zone remained perfect (linear engagement, in the center of lever travel, motorcop would love it) but neutral was evasive,,, going to 1qt (instead of the factory recommended 38oz) cured the evasive neutral,,, going into first gear of the DD7 is as smooth and quiet as any stock / modified '07+ HD...
Replaced the Compensator at around 30k while looking for a noise that turned out to be unrelated, probably has plenty more miles left...
The Bike has 62k at this time, the Primary is all original except; the latest SE Comp, Outer Primary with cast in Deflector, Alto Carbonite Plate Kit, SE HD Spring, AIM VP-95...
fwiw; this is what has been working for me,,, your results may vary... ;D
The Rotella looks interesting...