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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: bensonjv on March 06, 2018, 10:16:03 AM
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*Note: I recognize in advance that there are many aftermarket options available that may provide comparable or even increased performance. I'm warranty conscious so SE kits are the only ones being considered at this time.
I'm looking at a 2018 FLHTKSE. Part of the deal may include a Stage III kit. I'm looking for some help understanding the value added. Stock CVO Limited 117 specs says 4.075" bore, 4.5" stroke and 10.2:1 compression. Stage III kits says 4.075" bore and 11:1 compression.
Aren't the components of a stock CVO 117 already SE parts (cylinders, valve springs, tappets, rings, etc)? That's part of the CVO package I thought. If yes, are they the same as those in the Stage III kit? If yes, then am I correct that the only major changes the Stage III kit brings to a CVO 117 are 11:1 pistons and a new cam?
Is there an advantage of this kit versus just buying the 11:1 pistons and a SE8-498 cam by themselves?
Thanks in advance for your feedback.
JB
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The cylinders in that kit are identical to the stock CVO 117 cylinders, part numbers 16800121 & 16800123. The cylinders run about $184 each @ MSRP.
The lifters appear to be the SE version but the part number isn't listed in the kit, whereas your stock lifters are the old 99C lifters.
I couldn't find the part number for the valve springs in the kit. Your stock springs are part number 18100043.
Jerry
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Thanks. I'm considering three options right now with the 117 Stage III kit quickly losing favor as I learn more and get the impression I would be paying for a lot of redundant hardware.
- Stage III kit 92500057 as outlined or with 515 cam
- A Stage II 498 or 515 cam
- A hybrid Stage "2.5" with 11:1 pistons and 498 or 515 cam
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Thanks. I'm considering three options right now with the 117 Stage III kit quickly losing favor as I learn more and get the impression I would be paying for a lot of redundant hardware.
- Stage III kit 92500057 as outlined or with 515 cam
- A Stage II 498 or 515 cam
- A hybrid Stage "2.5" with 11:1 pistons and 498 or 515 cam
Be aware, HD only has EPA-approved fuel maps for the specific combinations in the catalog. To retain warranty, you have to use the map for that combination of parts. For example, I wanted to install the Stage 3 kit except use the Torque cam (498) instead of the one with the kit. Since HD doesn't have a map for that combo, I would have needed a non-stock (custom) map...and bye-bye warranty.
Edit: I just looked at the 92500057 kit, which says it's a 114 to 117 kit. The 2018 is already 117.
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Thanks. I'm considering three options right now with the 117 Stage III kit quickly losing favor as I learn more and get the impression I would be paying for a lot of redundant hardware.
- Stage III kit 92500057 as outlined or with 515 cam
- A Stage II 498 or 515 cam
- A hybrid Stage "2.5" with 11:1 pistons and 498 or 515 cam
The only redundant parts as best I can tell are the two cylinders. Tell the dealership to deduct the cost of the cylinders from the kit and use your stock parts. If you are thinking about subbing the Stage IV cam, make sure you understand what that will do to low end performance. Some people with the Stage IV kit aren't happy with the soft bottom end due to that 515 cam. It might be worse when combined with the parts in the Stage III kit. If you ride your bagger like most bagger riders, the bottom end is more important than the max horsepower at 6200 rpm.
JMHO - Jerry
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The cam in the 2018 CVOs is not the same cam as the 2017 CVO or regular M8.
It’s bigger. I don’t want to copy what someone else has written.
Here is the link. The specs are in this thread.
http://harleytechtalk.com/index.php?topic=101166.0
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Thanks,
I have open questions with Service Manager to confirm what combinations are possible.
I'm not sure page number in the SE catalog but the attached is from page 588 in the SE section of the 2018 P&A catalog. This was part of the reason for my earlier questions to confirm exactly what I'm getting with a Stage III kit for a stock CVO 117.
Be aware, HD only has EPA-approved fuel maps for the specific combinations in the catalog. To retain warranty, you have to use the map for that combination of parts. For example, I wanted to install the Stage 3 kit except use the Torque cam (498) instead of the one with the kit. Since HD doesn't have a map for that combo, I would have needed a non-stock (custom) map...and bye-bye warranty.
Edit: I just looked at the 92500057 kit, which says it's a 114 to 117 kit. The 2018 is already 117.
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I'll ask about a price deduction if I end up going that route.
Thanks for the clarity on the 515. I was on the cams page and not cross-referencing the Stage IV parts until later. Error on my part. You are right, I don't want the 515. I want low-mid range power and performance.
The only redundant parts as best I can tell are the two cylinders. Tell the dealership to deduct the cost of the cylinders from the kit and use your stock parts. If you are thinking about subbing the Stage IV cam, make sure you understand what that will do to low end performance. Some people with the Stage IV kit aren't happy with the soft bottom end due to that 515 cam. It might be worse when combined with the parts in the Stage III kit. If you ride your bagger like most bagger riders, the bottom end is more important than the max horsepower at 6200 rpm.
JMHO - Jerry
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*Note: I recognize in advance that there are many aftermarket options available that may provide comparable or even increased performance. I'm warranty conscious so SE kits are the only ones being considered at this time.
I'm looking at a 2018 FLHTKSE. Part of the deal may include a Stage III kit. I'm looking for some help understanding the value added. Stock CVO Limited 117 specs says 4.075" bore, 4.5" stroke and 10.2:1 compression. Stage III kits says 4.075" bore and 11:1 compression.
Aren't the components of a stock CVO 117 already SE parts (cylinders, valve springs, tappets, rings, etc)? That's part of the CVO package I thought. If yes, are they the same as those in the Stage III kit? If yes, then am I correct that the only major changes the Stage III kit brings to a CVO 117 are 11:1 pistons and a new cam?
Is there an advantage of this kit versus just buying the 11:1 pistons and a SE8-498 cam by themselves?
Thanks in advance for your feedback.
JB
I am in the same boat as you. I have a brand new CVO Limited with 5 years of ESP sitting at the dealer waiting on me. At first I thought about stage 4, but I could not stomach losing ground on the left side of the dyno chart. I looked at the stage 3, but the $ / hp and tq ratio absolutely sucks. So now I am just looking at a HD stage 2. I am told I will loose nothing on the left and gain some on the right. Sheesh, I really wish I could just get what I want from GMR or Fuel Moto.... :(
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Anxious to hear how it works out for you.
I am in the same boat as you. I have a brand new CVO Limited with 5 years of ESP sitting at the dealer waiting on me. At first I thought about stage 4, but I could not stomach losing ground on the left side of the dyno chart. I looked at the stage 3, but the $ / hp and tq ratio absolutely sucks. So now I am just looking at a HD stage 2. I am told I will loose nothing on the left and gain some on the right. Sheesh, I really wish I could just get what I want from GMR or Fuel Moto.... :(
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Got to be a PITA and too foggy on the details. Going with Stage I to start. Ride for a while and assess what the offerings are after 1-2K miles. I may decide good enough as is. ;)
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I'll ask about a price deduction if I end up going that route.
Thanks for the clarity on the 515. I was on the cams page and not cross-referencing the Stage IV parts until later. Error on my part. You are right, I don't want the 515. I want low-mid range power and performance.
The only SE cam that provides any of this Touring performance is the 447. Add a decent exhaust and a tuner, your 117 will make about 110 HP and 120+ TQ in the right place. If you have a warranty issue, go back to the stock exhaust and reflash the ECM to stock and take it in. If you go with any of their other cams and cocktails your low end will be less than stock.
Steve@fullsac.com
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The only SE cam that provides any this Touring performance is the 447. Add a decent exhaust and a tuner, your 117 will make about 110 HP and 120+ TQ in the right place. If you have a warranty issue, go back to the stock exhaust and reflash the ECM to stock and take it in. If you go with any of their other cams and cocktails your low end will be less than stock.
Steve@fullsac.com
Seen that time and again on the dyno charts people have posted. Don’t know why anyone wants a torque curve that doesn’t flatten out early and stay that way for the usable rpm range.