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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: 1roadking on December 12, 2018, 07:52:52 PM
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Hey guys, looking for some input on upgrading the crank in my 117 twin cam. It’s currently using stock crank with Suburban Speed HD 117 kit including the throttle body and injector upgrade set at 10.7 to 1, Tman 590 Cam, Suburban Speed ported/modified heads with bigger intake valve, Bassani B4 2 into 1 exhaust and tuned by Big Boyz in Maine. I’m really happy with the power and tune but it feels like it vibrates a lot more then it did stock under 3000 rpms. I’m pushing about 125 square on R&R’s dyno with they say is on the low side compared to most dynos. I’m wondering if changing to their 5 piece crank would be worth the investment and smooth it back out. I don’t want to do any more motor work for power just longevity and smoothness. I’ve also noticed my comp knocks and is noisy at idle since the build. Thoughts? The crank is pricey, but I’m local to R&R and know they make a great product and can do the install as well. Any input is appreciated:)
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Better off with a s&s 3 piece crank
They can balance to your pistons
No need for plugging or welding
Should have your bike tuned on a dynojet Dyno Dyno using afr instead of the 4 gas nonesense
La Harley or Robb's Dyno are capable tuners
Tyler's performance in Auburn more than capable of doing the wrenching
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I have the S&S Crank in my 117, it's the smoothest running Harley motor I have ever run/built.
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go with either a S&S FW assy or have dark horse rebuild,balance & plug your OEM FW
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When I upgraded to the SE Pro Race 117" build, I went with Dark Horse. Had the works done to my original crank.
I could not more stoked and as a bonus, I can sleep at night and not worry whether or not my Crank was going to scissor.
At least for now, I know it's better & stronger then stock.
YB
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So you have noticed a big difference in smoothness with the upgraded crank?
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Did you check runout while doing the upgrades?
Does it vibrate when just holding a constant speed out of gear?
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+1 on the S&S crank. (You can't go wrong with S&S). My customers (and myself) all have great results
with S&S' cranks. (Hoban has some nice stuff as well).
When you start playing around with the stroke (rod ratio) he intake centerline needs to be altered slightly
for optimum results. Not absolutely necessary for a mild street engine though.
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You might also consider the P3R crank, a little pricey to start out with, but re-buildable if ever necessary.
https://www.p3rflywheels.com/
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+1 on the S&S crank. (You can't go wrong with S&S). My customers (and myself) all have great results
with S&S' cranks.
Check out this video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkLUWqnk9s4
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That's a pretty convincing test/argument. S&S has always been superior to OEM. There's simply nothing
out there that even compares.
The crank takes allot of abuse, so putting the very best crank money can buy is always a good idea. I used
L.A. Enterprises billet cranks in my Big Block boat engines. They're very expensive, but you get what you
pay for. Harley cranks are no different. All that weld does is tell you that the crank has shifted. You'd have
to significantly "V" that out before welding it in order for it to add any real strength. (No good imo)
Factory cranks are junk for true high-performance builds. (They're barely adequate for a stock engine)
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That's a pretty convincing test/argument. S&S has always been superior to OEM. There's simply nothing
out there that even compares.
The crank takes allot of abuse, so putting the very best crank money can buy is always a good idea. I used
L.A. Enterprises billet cranks in my Big Block boat engines. They're very expensive, but you get what you
pay for. Harley cranks are no different. All that weld does is tell you that the crank has shifted. You'd have
to significantly "V" that out before welding it in order for it to add any real strength. (No good imo)
Factory cranks are junk for true high-performance builds. (They're barely adequate for a stock engine)
Matt,
Your reasoning on the boat motors is exactly why the P3R crank is my choice- Don’t have to worry about soft pins and it will withstand a lot more power and punishment than the stock, welded and S&S crank. It’s American made, and Dave the owner is a super nice guy to work with.
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a S&S F/W will handle any amount of HP/TQ you can put to it,its also just as rebuildable (if needed) as a P3R and you can buy 2 for hat the P3R costs
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+1, I'm pretty sure Kirby abuses the $hit out of his cranks. If S&S is good enough for a T/F bike, they're certainly good enough for anything we can dish out.
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Who said he uses an S&S crank in that bike? Kirby?
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Say what you want but pictures don’t lie
I guess this input shaft handled the power right up to when it snapped off.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181216/deba878a237b2d5aee58f63daaebb93d.jpg)
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Thanks for the replies:) it looks like the S&S would be the way to go and there is a certified installer/machine shop locally that looks really good for the work. I called P3R and it sounds like a great product but very expensive and I think it’s more then I need based on my build. Should I have a Timken bearing installed as well or is that more then I need? I do ride very hard on occasion and want this motor Bullit proof? I’m also considering having my SE lifters replaces while it’s spart. They are new 2000 miles ago from the 117 kit, but I was not happy about using them to begin with. Anything else I should consider while it’s apart? Keep I mind the heads have already been done.
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+1 for the timken
I’d consider a shim or the S&S pump plate combo
This will bring your pressure at hot idle up to around 10 pounds
Agree with dumping those lifters, I prefer the S&S without the travel limiters
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Thanks for the replies:) it looks like the S&S would be the way to go and there is a certified installer/machine shop locally that looks really good for the work. I called P3R and it sounds like a great product but very expensive and I think it’s more then I need based on my build. Should I have a Timken bearing installed as well or is that more then I need? I do ride very hard on occasion and want this motor Bullit proof? I’m also considering having my SE lifters replaces while it’s spart. They are new 2000 miles ago from the 117 kit, but I was not happy about using them to begin with. Anything else I should consider while it’s apart? Keep I mind the heads have already been done.
An improperly done timken
Make sure whomever is doing it aligns the case halves
Just using the Jim's tool bad idea
Better off with 2 Lefty's and a trued up balanced crank
S&s crank more than up to the task
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An improperly done timken
Make sure whomever is doing it aligns the case halves
Just using the Jim's tool bad idea
Better off with 2 Lefty's and a trued up balanced crank
S&s crank more than up to the task
John is absolutely right. S&S cranks are more than up to the task. (They'll even do the machine work).
I wouldn't skimp on this part, getting it done right the first time is money well spent. Doing it twice will
always cost (allot) more. Let S&S do that machine work, you'll be a happy camper. Guaranteed!
2 cents...
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go with the Timken conversion,the timkens help stabilize the flywheels way more than OEM roller bearing or "lefties".also go with S&S lifters over SE
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Who said he uses an S&S crank in that bike? Kirby?
I never said we use a S&S F/W and we don't,(we`de twist a S&S or P3R or any regular crank to chit in a heart beat)we made our crank out of 4340 C/M,output shaft is 3.5" & uses very large timkens on both sides
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I never said we use a S&S F/W and we don't,(we`de twist a S&S or P3R or any regular crank to chit in a heart beat)we made our crank out of 4340 C/M,output shaft is 3.5" & uses very large timkens on both sides
Well. There you have it. (I'm not surprised you need a 3 1/2" output shaft for that thing) lol.
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So looking like S&S crank with Timken bearing, S&s lifters and Baker comp. any thoughts on the Baker compensater and Hayden tensioner.
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So looking like S&S crank with Timken bearing, S&s lifters and Baker comp. any thoughts on the Baker compensater and Hayden tensioner.
Good choice. Baker is top notch stuff as well. I'm not familiar with Hayden but they're probably pretty good.
The Harley tensioner is not known to be problematic, fwtw...
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So looking like S&S crank with Timken bearing, S&s lifters and Baker comp. any thoughts on the Baker compensater and Hayden tensioner.
I would not suggest the baker comp with the bigger inch motors for 2 reasons
1 it only supports 130 HP
2 it is noisey
Manual tensioner is good, Baker is the one who said to not use the comp were worried about it coming apart on bigger inch/power motors.
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Some of the locals here with 135+ hp use a solid front sprocket and have accumulated many miles on that setup with no downside that they can feel or hear. Plus no maintenance.
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Thanks unbalanced, I called Baker and they are realeasing a heavy duty comp in March made for higher output motors. He said to wait and get the new HD version. He also recommended a new chain and his adjuster if I want super quite and smooth. Apparently used chains can make a lot of noise when used with a their compensator and tension adjuster because of being worn in for a different angle. I’m ready for perfection in my primary so I think this whole set up is worth it. The new comp is suppose to be much stronger with much stronger spring pressure to deal with high HP and TQ loads.
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Thanks unbalanced, I called Baker and they are realeasing a heavy duty comp in March made for higher output motors. He said to wait and get the new HD version. He also recommended a new chain and his adjuster if I want super quite and smooth. Apparently used chains can make a lot of noise when used with a their compensator and tension adjuster because of being worn in for a different angle. I’m ready for perfection in my primary so I think this whole set up is worth it. The new comp is suppose to be much stronger with much stronger spring pressure to deal with high HP and TQ loads.
Thanks for the info on the upgraded compensator.
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Looking for clarification on the Timken bearing install. The guy is planning on using the Jim’s set up. Someone on here said that’s not the right way to do it. Can you clarify what I should be asking please? Is the Jim’s Timken design bad or is it how it’s installed I should be worried about?
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Looking for clarification on the Timken bearing install. The guy is planning on using the Jim’s set up. Someone on here said that’s not the right way to do it. Can you clarify what I should be asking please? Is the Jim’s Timken design bad or is it how it’s installed I should be worried about?
the JIMS insert is the way to do it.theres talk about improper install on alignment or even some places that make their own off set inserts.we`ve installed 100`s of JIMS inserts,checking every case for misalignment,worse we`ve ever seen was .0008,no where near the point of needing any special insert made and still way better than 1 or 2 lefties on the sprocket side. most are within .0005 or less
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Scheduled this work for this month:)