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Author Topic: Beehive Valve Springs  (Read 2843 times)

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hrdtail78

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2017, 09:13:06 AM »

Did the spring pads get checked to see if they are perpendicular to guides? 
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2017, 10:33:58 AM »

Dual springs work. Beehives not all the time. I won't be using any beehives in the big builds any longer. I too had similar failures with springs rated at .600 and .650 from name brand companies. Others I had come back for freshening up dropped serious pressure. The factory springs are not that bad but the noise the stockers make in the mid 2K rpm range is harmonics and that hammers lifters. So my point is there are dual and then there are better dual springs. Using a TI retainer becomes smart to keep the spring weight down. When working with a top quality spring such as PAC there are enough options to dial in what the build will need for pressure and the gain the ability to control the harmonics.

On a side note I have also seen two versions of the factory OEM springs used in the CVO 110, one with dual springs and dampener and one version without. I prefer no flat dampener and the interference fit . We need to keep in mind the valve train in this motor is heavy and even though the cams may not have high lift or long duration they have very high lift rates and need a proper spring with enough pressure, spring rate and seat pressure, or the valve train will loft and/or float.

I will still use the OEM beehive on the 7mm valve stuff under .600 lift except if someone is using one of the jack hammer type cams.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2017, 11:39:57 AM by HD Street Performance »
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wfolarry

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2017, 10:54:28 AM »

Did the spring pads get checked to see if they are perpendicular to guides?

Good thing to check. Have seen some that were way off after a guide change.

As to why they fail, IDK  :nixweiss:. I see some beehive springs lean when removed, and the spring seat is shiny about a third of the way around.

Talked to the PAC guys at PRI. If the springs tilt/lean I was told to send them back. This was common when they first came out but has been corrected. They should sit flat/square.
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r0de_runr

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2017, 02:10:40 PM »

Another one bites the dust.
More and more I'm gaining a major dislike for beehive springs. "I know a few things because I've seen a few things."
This one is from a 124 S&S HC crate motor. Owner is NOT a hammer. 5500 miles, and boom. Don't want to hear that GM, etc., etc, uses thousands of them(they use thousands of valve lifters also) and don't have the problems that the Harley world has with them.
Checked the assembly of the opposing head, and that was spot on. .650" lift spring, installed height 1.870", 160 lbs. on the seat.
John

I took this photograph.
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johnsachs

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2017, 06:38:36 PM »

Did the spring pads get checked to see if they are perpendicular to guides?
First thing I checked, because I couldn't tell if the broken spring was a leaner.
Used my snap gauge along with a retainer and keepers. Never more than .004" out around the retainer and base area. Valve to guide clearance within S&S specs.
My biggest problem with the beehives is if a spring breaks, 99.9 % of the time the valve drops, causing major damage. Dual spring breaks one of them 99.9% of the time usually prevents the valve from dropping. ;)
John
1 thing to note: When using valve spring shims on late 103" heads, be SURE the hole in the center of the shim has a large enough diameter to clear the guide retaining ring.  :o
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:49:21 PM by johnsachs »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2017, 10:01:24 PM »

I shim on top of the spring seat/seal holder.
I have found similar in spring seat measurements and felt it was not enough to fix it or hurt the reliability of the spring.
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MCE Performance

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2018, 01:38:42 PM »

Shimming on top of the seal's holder is always a good idea. That way you minimize the risk of the
retainer crushing the seal.

High rpm (and heat) shorten a spring's life. Choosing a bee-hive vs. dual is a trade off, like most everything.
The springs are oil cooled on these engines and they tend to run hotter than say, a water cooled V8 spring.

So we have that working against us.   If you want ultimate protection from a broken spring taking your
motor out, run a dual spring. The downside is, the spring and retainer are heavier, so more pressure may be
necessary to control the valve train.

Tradeoffs are a way of life... food for thought is all....

Added:
Springs have a natural resonant frequency. Beehives mitigate this by having many resonant points,
each of which are less than one single (major) frequency. Dual springs will have a major resonant frequency
for the inner and one (major) for the outer. (hopefully those are nowhere close to one another)

Keeping the spring out of the resonant range also makes them live longer. What's the resonant frequency
you may ask. Good question, that needs to be answered by the spring manufacturer or spintron testing.

Running at an RPM where the spring resonates (rings) will kill them too.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 01:50:35 PM by MCE Performance »
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DesertHOG

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 07:06:51 PM »

This is an example of what resonance can do to a structure.

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Twolanerider

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 07:22:04 PM »


This is an example of what resonance can do to a structure.




That's definitely what's going on inside a Harley valve train (or compensator)!
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 10:42:19 AM »

So Matt
What are you recommending for the CVO head motors?
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MCE Performance

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 03:00:03 PM »

dual spring
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prodrag1320

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 06:15:13 PM »

These posts on different forums have got me also thinking twice about beehives,have too many heads out there we've done with no failures reported back to us,but hearing from others is a eye opener

wfolarry

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 12:35:19 PM »

These posts on different forums have got me also thinking twice about beehives,have too many heads out there we've done with no failures reported back to us,but hearing from others is a eye opener

Don't give up yet.  ;D
I've seen more dual spring failures in the past year than I have beehive. Most failures can be traced back to something other than the spring.
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Unbalanced

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Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 12:49:32 PM »

Larry,

How many of the dual spring were catastrophic failures vs beehive failures that you saw?

Also to put the failures in perspective how many have you seen the (past year) of each to understand the comparison?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 12:53:59 PM by Unbalanced »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Beehive Valve Springs
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2018, 01:19:54 PM »

We are close to having shelf springs that won't have any compromise, a dual conical with appropriate spring rates and installed heights for what we are doing in these roller cam applications.
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