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[TRS300]

Hi folks,

So I had an idea to add an oil cooler to my 2015 CVO SG.  The bike has 54K miles and is working well but I do modifications and projects on a regular basis.  The twin cooling system has always caught my interest and I've always wondered if it really worked all that well at all.

Like most CVOs mine runs a bit to warm for my liking. Besides, the bike simply runs better when it's cooler.  I've done s number of mods to the bike. one such mod was to take control of the cooling fans.  They always came on way too late IMO so I have them starting now based on engine temp, not water temp.  Anyway, I'll not get into that now.

Before I dove too deep into the cooling system I wanted to try a project to install a water-cooled oil cooler.  The project was eye opening experience.  Anyone with a twin cooled Harley should read this paper.  If you are like me I strongly suggest you remove the thermostat from your twin cooled motor. In the end that change alone produced a huge reduction in engine temp.

Anyway, I placed all of the project notes, pictures and test results in the file at this link.  The PDF file is about 2.6mb so be careful if you not on wifi.

http://sta-bul.com/projects/OilCoolerProjectPhase1.pdf

Hope you enjoy and learn something like I did.

Best Regards,

Tim

[Phreakyz]

If you want the bike to run cooler, buy a tuner and re-flash it.  The OE Calibrations are very lean in order to meet tough emission requirements which causes the high combustion chamber temps.     

I live in a state that does not emission test bikes.  I have removed my cat and then re-flashed my CVO Street Glide with a Vance and Hines FP3, now my fans barely ever run except for the most extreme stop and go traffic on HOT days.    Sometimes I run them manually just to make sure they don't freeze up from lack of use.    The comfort level is so much higher because your right side calf and thigh is no longer roasting...

Your bike will run better and cooler and you will be happier 

[Mikey]

Hi folks,

So I had an idea to add an oil cooler to my 2015 CVO SG.  The bike has 54K miles and is working well but I do modifications and projects on a regular basis.  The twin cooling system has always caught my interest and I've always wondered if it really worked all that well at all.

Like most CVOs mine runs a bit to warm for my liking. Besides, the bike simply runs better when it's cooler.  I've done s number of mods to the bike. one such mod was to take control of the cooling fans.  They always came on way too late IMO so I have them starting now based on engine temp, not water temp. Anyway, I'll not get into that now.

Before I dove too deep into the cooling system I wanted to try a project to install a water-cooled oil cooler.  The project was eye opening experience.  Anyone with a twin cooled Harley should read this paper.  If you are like me I strongly suggest you remove the thermostat from your twin cooled motor. In the end that change alone produced a huge reduction in engine temp.

Anyway, I placed all of the project notes, pictures and test results in the file at this link.  The PDF file is about 2.6mb so be careful if you not on wifi.

http://sta-bul.com/projects/OilCoolerProjectPhase1.pdf

Hope you enjoy and learn something like I did.

Best Regards,

Tim

Wow interesting! I agree with the fans to late, mine seldom run at all. How did you take control of the fans?
Thanks,
Mikey

[HD Street Performance]

Not to discount your efforts but head fans go a long way in cooling these motors down. The software, such as tts, allows tuning the factory fans without external control.

[Mikey]

Not to discount your efforts but head fans go a long way in cooking these motors down. The software, such as tts, allows tuning the factory fans without external control.

Cooling?

[HD Street Performance]

Yes, hate this phone. Cooling

[TRS300]

Yes, hate this phone. Cooling

ha ha.  No worries.  I understood what you meant.

Hey folks,

I did not post this thread to start yet another debate over how "best" to cool your Harley.  I know about head fans, I know about tuning etc...  I was sharing this information to let folks with "Twin Cooling" know that if they remove their thermostat that the system has a lot of extra capacity to remove heat from the heads when the thermostat is removed.  A significant amount of heat for that matter.  It's a simple mod that only takes an hour.  And with the thermostat out refilling the system and getting the air out is easier as the cooling system is a loop with the bypass removed.  I'm just sharing what I've found that's all.

As for head fans, something simply does not "seem right" if I have to add head fans to a bike with water cooling in the heads.  Furthermore, the twin cool system works at all speeds, even better at high speeds where-as the head fans work more at low to no speed.  Anyway, I have done tests to the effect of blowing air across the head and it does help.  But frankly i think that water cooling from the twin cooled system is better solution as it removes the heat from the inside, from around the valves, whereas the fan cooling is cooling the surface temp of the head, not the core.

Regards,  Tim

[TRS300]

Wow interesting! I agree with the fans to late, mine seldom run at all. How did you take control of the fans?
Thanks,
Mikey

I had a feeling this question would come up since I mentioned it.  There are a number of ways you can do this but it depends on your skill level and how comfortable you feel in altering things on your bike.  I suppose I could write a "How-To" if there was enough interest.  But here's a list of different ways to do this... Which one is best is up to you.


1.) Tap the wires that go to the temp sensor on the bottom left radiator and run a jumper circuit that has ~ 390<>400 ohm resistor and an on/off switch where you can reach it (I would mount it via a hole in the plastic inner shroud in the lower itself where it's not noticable). The switch is so you can defeat the effect of the resistor in the jumper wire.  The resistor fakes the signal to the ECU that the water temp is hotter than it really is.  This is a great solution because the ECU will still shut down the fans when the bike gets moving. What it does too is run the fans and the pump for a few minutes every time you shut down the bike.  So even if you make a quick stop (for gas for example) on a hot day the fans and the pump will cool down the motor while filling up. When you take off again the heads have been "pe-cooled" during the pit stop.  If you do not like that the fans run after shutdown, simply flick the switch to "off" and break the resistor circuit and the system will return to normal and fans will shutdown.

Edit: The lower the value of the resistor the sooner the fans will turn on, you should play with what value works best for you. If you still think they come on too late put a lower value resistor in the loop.  Do not go below 100 ohm I would say.  It take a complete short circuit, or open circuit in the sensor loop to throw a CEL. As long as the sensor is plugged in you should not see an open circuit. And as long as you have a resistor in the jumper you will not see a short circuit.

Edit2:  If you do not want the fans to operate after shutdown at all you can use a simple reed relay switch that closes when accessory wire is powered. that way the resistor is engaged only when the run switch is engaged.

2.) Take full control of the fans by switch:  a.) use a 1K ohm resistor jumper on the fan circuit to fool the ECU into thinking the fans are ok and in the loop.  Then run the fans any method you like (switch. thermal switch, etc...)

3.) I have a microcontroller that reads information off the CAN bus and does a few things for me.  One of the things it does is directly control my fans based on head temperature.  I can adjust when the fans start and I can adjust when I want to shut them down based on MPH.  I have my fan set to engage ant any speed less than 50 mph and engine temp is greater than 170.  But this is a bit beyond what most folks can do.  Oddly, my system will not run the fans after shutdown because I've not taken over control of the water pump...  I like the "Run after S/D" feature... So I may actually add another control circuit to manage a resistor jumper on the cooling water thermal sensor to get that feature working...

Not sure if any of this made sense but there it is...

<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>

[TRS300]

If you want the bike to run cooler, buy a tuner and re-flash it.  The OE Calibrations are very lean in order to meet tough emission requirements which causes the high combustion chamber temps.     

I live in a state that does not emission test bikes.  I have removed my cat and then re-flashed my CVO Street Glide with a Vance and Hines FP3, now my fans barely ever run except for the most extreme stop and go traffic on HOT days.    Sometimes I run them manually just to make sure they don't freeze up from lack of use.    The comfort level is so much higher because your right side calf and thigh is no longer roasting...

Your bike will run better and cooler and you will be happier 

I also have an FP3. 

What calibrations did you use to flash the ECM to get this good result?

My right calf is still uncomfortable and it's from the exhaust so I know the bike is running lean.  I've not found any help on the web on how to get the mixture to be richer with the FP3.

[BigLew55]

You might want to add a note that this is applicable to the 14-16 MY bikes.  In '17 they removed the thermostat and made the pump motor variable speed.

Cool project, BTW.  Thanks for sharing.

[TRS300]

You might want to add a note that this is applicable to the 14-16 MY bikes.  In '17 they removed the thermostat and made the pump motor variable speed.

Cool project, BTW.  Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for sharing that BigLew.  I'd be curious to read the manual to see how they are controlling the speed of the pump.  I'll bet you they are holding back on circulation and the condition is similar (not using all the cooling available).  For some reason Harley is (was) using water temp as the control variable, whereas I think they should be using engine temp instead.  Maybe that is what they are doing in the new design, maybe not.  On any day > 80 degs your pump should be running at 100% speed, if it's not they are doing the same mistake they did with the thermostat but just with a different design (supplying too warm of water) .

I suspect someone realized that you could use variable speed to control the pump and get the same effect as the old design plus save the cost of the thermostat, yet not change the temperature control logic that was with the thermostat.  The T-Stat would begin to open at 160 deg and be fully open at 190 deg.  I bet they are ramping the pump speed up on the same guidelines.

If I had your bike I would check it, and if it is doing that I would find a way to get the pump to run at 100% sooner (possibly using the resistor jumper on the coolant temp sensor) But who knows... Maybe HD would surprise me and they actually are driving the pump based on engine temp instead of coolant temp...

Thank you the info.

Regards,

Tim

[Mikey]

The bike has 54K miles and is working well

So are you on the original water pump?
Mikey

[TRS300]

The bike has 54K miles and is working well

So are you on the original water pump?
Mikey

I think so yes.  I bought the bike from a dealer and they had all the service records.  Bike was still under warrantee at the time.  No issues related tp cooling system were listed.

I know a lot of folks get in a twist about the water pump and water cooled system.  But frankly, I'm not sure why.  The bike can run just fine without the precision cooled water system (you just need to use common sense and not be riding like a bat out of heck if it fails).  With all the electronics ECU. EFI, Etc. The water system is the least of my concerns. Even when on a trip away from home.  This is a precision (targeted) cooling system (not a fully water cooled engine) it's the best situation you can have.  You get the benefits of water cooled heads and if something goes wrong you're not stranded on the side of the road.

FYI:  You may know this but apparently many failures on these pumps is a weak solder connection that comes loose.  The pump it self is a magnet drive (no coupling) and the motor is brushless.  Frankly the thing should run forever (short of bearing failure) if the wire connections do not come apart.  I may open mine up to inspect and maybe secure things just as a preventive maintenance step.

--

[TRS300]

.... The software, such as tts, allows tuning the factory fans without external control.

Can you expand on this?  What is tts? And are you saying it can set the Cooling temperature and MPH targets that control when the radiator fans run?

[HD Street Performance]

TTS mastertune,  read up on it. These parameters are unlocked.