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[110tHunDer]

Here's some active dicussion on the Electra Glide Garage website on this subject.  http://forums.delphiforums.com/electraglide1/messages/?msg=4850.1  In that message it also points to the Harley Tech Talk website and another thread talking about the same thing.  Thanks again to Glave for taking the time and going to the expense of having his Syn 3 analyzed and posting the results here so we know to avoid this junk in the tranny. [smiley=beerchug.gif]

[Glave]

Here's some active dicussion on the Electra Glide Garage website on this subject.

[mfgreen]

Glave,
you got the rest of this post??  not all fit into the allotted space

[Glave]

Glave,
you got the rest of this post??

[Glave]

 [smiley=1syellow1.gif] Here is the Mobile Tech post in full, Page One, Page 2 on next Post

I spent quite a bit of time on the phone the other day with a tech at Mobil. We talked a lot about the VTwin Mobil 1, as well as the 15W50 "Redcap" Mobil 1 car oil.

Here is what I learned:

The "redcap" 15W50 does have friction modifiers in it, but not in as large a quantity as you'll find in 40 weight and lighter oils. Friction modifiers are simply additives that bond to the metal and make things more slippery. It's true that synthetic oil is NOT more slippery than dino oil, but with the addition of friction modifiers it will be. ('course you can put the FM's in the dino oil too...)

That's why Mobil doesn't recommend using the 15W50 redcap in motorcycles, which have wet clutch systems. The redcap used to not have the friction mods, but now it does--in small amounts. So if you hear someone tell you that redcap is without friction modifiers, tell them that's old news...

This said, many, many folks very successfully use the current production redcap in their wet clutch bikes and never have any clutch problems. I used it in my Harley Davidson's primary chain case with no clutch problems. The tech said that he was aware that many folks "swore" by the recap 15W50 in their wet clutch bikes, and made no further comment.

As for the 20W50 VTwin Mobil 1 oil...

That oil--as best I could understand between the lines--is aimed at keeping Mobil's share of the Harley Davidson synthetic oil market. Harley now offers their "Screamin' Eagle" Syn3 oil (an oil which according to the MSDS is only about 60 percent synthetic, by the way). Harley claims that this 20W50 Syn3 oil can be used in all three holes on the Harley Davidson motorcycle. This is a convenience issue, however, and not a matter of the best lube in each spot.

Mobil says that technically Harley Davidson could void the factory warranty if one were to use 15W50 oil since the manual calls for a 20W50 oil. That's ridiculous, of course--and the Mobil tech agreed--but nonetheless Mobil had to respond to Harley's Syn3 oil in proper fashion, hence the 20W50 VTwin stuff.

The additive package in the VTwin oil contains about ten percent more phosphorus and zinc than does the redcap 15W50. But here's the thing: Your engine only depends on the phosphorus/zinc content on two occasions. One is when you start the engine up cold. The phosphorus/zinc additive remains attached to the cylinder walls and cam lobes and other places high in the motor and provides lubrication until such time as the oil gets circulated to that part of the engine. Does Mobil 1 15W50 have enough of this additive to provide start-up protection? I asked. "More than enough" answered the tech. I asked him why the VTwin had about ten percent more of the additive and he said that was in case of catastrophic failure of the oil--the "extra" additive would be spread about 10 percent thicker on the engine parts and provide about ten percent more time to get the engine shut down before metal hits metal. If you're thinking "big whoop" so was I. Considering that Mobil 1 Redcap doesn't begin to fail until well over 400 degrees I don't think the oil will ever need to hand over the lube detail to the additive package. I presented the Mobil tech with this notion and he sheepishly agreed.

So. For the Harley Davidson engine there would seem to be only one good reason for running the VTwin 20W50 over the redcap 15W50 car oil: factory warranty. I said "So let's assume that my factory warranty has expired. How much additional protection--realistically speaking--does the VTwin oil provide my engine over the 15W50 redcap car oil? I mean, considering that neither oil isn't going to break down anywhere this side of 400 degrees, and both oils have more than enough zinc and phosphorous to provide good start-up protection--is it worth double the price for the VTwin oil?" The tech paused a moment, and finally said "If I weren't at work I would tell you to run the 15W50." And that's a direct quote.

As for the transmission and primary chain case on the Harleys...

[Glave]

 [smiley=6.gif], Page 2

The "Three in One" oil is a compromise--it's not the best lube for the tranny and the chain case. I know that Amsoil markets their 20W50 for all three spots, but again, that's a new thing, done in response to Harley Davidson's marketing of the Syn3 stuff. Amsoil doesn't want to lose any market share to Harley's Syn3, so forth comes the recommendation. The 20W50 will lube the primary and the tranny, but not as well as separate, dedicated oils can. Yes, the 20W50 is the best oil for the engine (but actually no better than the redcap 15W50). But the best primary chain oil will be a lighter viscosity for better penetration. Harley Davidson's own "Genuine" primary oil is nothing more than a decent 10W40 oil according to independent sources. So the Mobil tech recommended the MX4T 10W40 motorcycle oil which they now market since it doesn't have friction modifiers which may (and it appears that that is a big "may") be bad for the clutch life. The MX4T is eight bucks a quart also...

For the tranny, we lube gears with gear oil. Mobil 1's synthetic 75W90 is probably the best stuff for this job according to the tech.

So for his "hypothetical Harley" (on a day when he's not at work and not bound by contract to toe the company line, remember) the Mobil 1 tech would use 15W50 in the crankcase (four bucks a quart as opposed to eight for the VTwin oil) and Mobil 1 75W90 in the tranny (better shear strength and cushion to the gears) and MX4T 10W40 (unfortunately eight bucks a quart as well) in the primary case.

For my part, I've got the 15W50 redcap in my engine, the 75W90 Mobil 1 in my gear box, and currently just standard "Genuine!" Harley 10W40 overpriced motor oil in the primary.

I'm going to locate a good synthetic without friction modifiers in the 10W40 weight range for use in the primary when it comes time to change that oil. It may be difficult finding a 10W40 oil without friction modifiers since the government is mandating the inclusion of such additives in lighter oils to promote fuel economy (more slippery oil, higher gas mileage on the engines, or so goes the notion).

Anyway, just remember that the "three in one" thing is, for the most part, a response to Harley Davidson's Syn3 oil. It is definitely not the best lube for all three locations...

Dan Posts: 27 | From: wytheville, va | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged |

[jfscheck]

Lot's of good info there!