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[Doc 1]

Gentleman here are five questions you can ask your tuner to see what his skill level is without being conspicuous.  These are 5 simple questions that a good experienced tuner can and will be able to spit out the answers correctly and without a great deal of thought and the whole time your asking them the questions it will seem like a general conversation of you getting a little knowledge of the tuning procedures from him. If your tuner can't answer all, or any, of these questions it's time for you to search out another shop.

1) How long will my bike be on the Dyno to tune the SERT?
(answer)  4 to 5 hours
 
2) How many Dyno runs will you have to make to finish a tune?
(answer) 50 to 70 on a average
 
3) What are people talking about when they say you have to SYNCHRONIZE the VE tables?
(answer) By Synchronizing the VE Table to the Fuel Table your telling the ECM the new air flow through the motor from the mods you made.

4) I heard something about a Step Test, can you tell me what that is?
(answer) The Step Test is a program in the winPEP 7 software (Dyno Software) that allows us to sample the AFR longer for a better reading at 2%, 5%, 7%, 10%, and 15% Throttle Position. This is where the bike lives so we want a good AFR sample to make our edits.

5) Do you change the AFR Table to one value as you tune?
(answer) Yes, 13.2. This makes it easier to synchronize the VE Table.
 
If your tuner can answer these simple questions chances are (99%) you will get a good tune. I hope this will give you all a better idea who your trusting your $20,000.00 investment with.

Just trying to help!
Doc 

PS. If they don't answer all of the questions correctly, PLEASE give them my phone number for training - it's in my signature.

[SBB]

If your tuner can answer these simple questions chances are (99%) you will get a good tune. I hope this will give you all a better idea who your trusting your $20,000.00 investment with.

Doc

$20,000.00 is usually the amount spent on upgrades to the bike not including the cost of the bike!
After all, this is CVO Harley.com

Thanks for the info you post!

 

[rednectum]

Doc

$20,000.00 is usually the amount spent on upgrades to the bike not including the cost of the bike!
After all, this is CVO Harley.com

Thanks for the info you post!

 

i tried to tell him you guys were anal retentive and to be careful.                       

not really, i just made that up. for yall that dont know doc, he is one of three tuners in the world that can answer the kinda questions i ask. sometimes i lay awake at night thinking of ways to trick him, that just slows him down a little. LOL he is old ya know!

no kidding, Doc is the guy that woul be able to get that litle low speed ping out of my buddies bike---------if possible. not to mention he is very colorful.

[FR8TRN]

i tried to tell him you guys were anal retentive and to be careful.                       

not really, i just made that up. for yall that dont know doc, he is one of three tuners in the world that can answer the kinda questions i ask. sometimes i lay awake at night thinking of ways to trick him, that just slows him down a little. LOL he is old ya know!

no kidding, Doc is the guy that woul be able to get that litle low speed ping out of my buddies bike---------if possible. not to mention he is very colorful.

Would Doc be the guy that use to own Braggin Rights in Central FL??

[Unbalanced]

FR8TRN,

Bragging Rights is not Doc although I know Doc had done some tuning on Jim's dyno as they have known each a while and live just a few miles from each other.   Jim Brown owns Bragging Rights.   

Doc no pressure here, but maybe you should share some of your background with ohters on this site, so they can get a feel for how valuable your information is.   

Any chance Doc you might let some of us know where besides Gator HD in Leesburg that you have trained and qualified tuners for those with SERTs to visit.

Thanks in advance,

-harry

[rednectum]

damned unbalanced---------now you done got him started. i was trying to use scare tactics. he is kinda like you-----------------once you get him started-------------------------------.

[bigdave110]

YOU ALL ARE LOOKIN FOR GOOD ADVICE ON HOW TO TUNE.
GO NO FURTHER, THIS IS THE GUY.
VERY HELPFUL.
THANKS AGAIN DOC
 

[FR8TRN]

FR8TRN,
Bragging Rights is not Doc although I know Doc had done some tuning on Jim's dyno as they have known each a while and live just a few miles from each other.   Jim Brown owns Bragging Rights.   
Doc no pressure here, but maybe you should share some of your background with ohters on this site, so they can get a feel for how valuable your information is.   
Any chance Doc you might let some of us know where besides Gator HD in Leesburg that you have trained and qualified tuners for those with SERTs to visit.
Thanks in advance,
-harry

Thanks, I'd heard Braggin Rights had shut down (just a rumor I'd heard), thought maybe this was the previous owner and was doing something else now along the same lines.  Sounds like Doc knows his stuff also.  Hopefully I can look him up next time I get down to Clermont and have mine done....

[Unbalanced]

Thanks, I'd heard Braggin Rights had shut down (just a rumor I'd heard), thought maybe this was the previous owner and was doing something else now along the same lines.  Sounds like Doc knows his stuff also.  Hopefully I can look him up next time I get down to Clermont and have mine done....

Rumor has it he is working for Drag Specialities now.  I have tried to get a hold of him, but his voicemail is full     Can't confirm if he is completely shut down or parlty shut down though.   But if your needing tuning in the clermont area Doc trained 2 guys up at Gator in Leesburg and they are doing a good job from what I hear thus far.

[Doc 1]

FR8TRN,

Bragging Rights is not Doc although I know Doc had done some tuning on Jim's dyno as they have known each a while and live just a few miles from each other.   Jim Brown owns Bragging Rights.   

Doc no pressure here, but maybe you should share some of your background with ohters on this site, so they can get a feel for how valuable your information is.   

Any chance Doc you might let some of us know where besides Gator HD in Leesburg that you have trained and qualified tuners for those with SERTs to visit.

Thanks in advance,

-harry

Dave at JD's Cycle Works in Bethelehem Pa.
Joe and Tom at Horsepower Harley Davidson in Willamsport Pa.
Brian at Zepka Harley Davidson in Johnstown Pa
Mike at Battlefield Harley Davidson in Gettysburgh Pa.
Bill at Highland Harley Davidson in Summer Set Pa.
Tim at McDaniel's Harley Davidson in South Bend Ind.
Todd at Kokomo Harley Davidson in Kokomo Ind.
Brandon at Indywest Harley Davidson in Ind.
Jack at American Harley Davidson in Ann Arbor Mi
Noah at Grand Rapids Harley Davidson in Grand Rapids Mi
John at Brighton Harley Davidson in Brighton Mi
Josh at F&S Harley Davidson in Dayton Oh.
Patrick at Gator Harley Davidson in Leesburgh Fl.
Eddie (Doc) at Harley Davidson of Greenville in Greenville SC.

[Unbalanced]

Dave at JD's Cycle Works in Bethelehem Pa.
Joe and Tom at Horsepower Harley Davidson in Willamsport Pa.
Brian at Zepka Harley Davidson in Johnstown Pa
Mike at Battlefield Harley Davidson in Gettysburgh Pa.
Mark and the boys at Highland Harley Davidson in Summer Set Pa.
Tim at McDaniel's Harley Davidson in South Bend Ind.
Todd at Kokomo Harley Davidson in Kokomo Ind.
Brandon at Indywest Harley Davidson in Ind.
Jack at American Harley Davidson in Ann Arbor Mi
Noah at Grand Rapids Harley Davidson in Grand Rapids Mi
John at Brighton Harley Davidson in Brighton Mi
Josh at F&S Harley Davidson in Dayton Oh.
Patrick at Gator Harley Davidson in Leesburgh Fl.
Eddie (Doc) at Harley Davidson of Greenville in Greenville SC.

Thanks Doc I am sure quite a few here will appreciate having names to trust.

[Sean M Cary]

Rumor has it he is working for Drag Specialities now.  I have tried to get a hold of him, but his voicemail is full     Can't confirm if he is completely shut down or parlty shut down though.   But if your needing tuning in the clermont area Doc trained 2 guys up at Gator in Leesburg and they are doing a good job from what I hear thus far.

Better half is from Eustis...have to make a point of riding down one day to check these folks out.

[SCRM-R]

I have an appointment with Patrick at Gator H-D in Leesburg in mid-September...I'm going to get the TMAX O-U-T, put the stock ECM with SERT back in and have them tune the 117" motor.  I've talked to Doc a few times (via email), and he said that he would go and look over their shoulder.  He has been extremely helpful and forthcoming with information.  Service oriented...that's the type folks I like to deal with.  I'm looking forward to the tune and I'll let you all know the results.

[BaggerDave]

Thanks for the info!

[Capo]

Thanks Doc I am sure quite a few here will appreciate having names to trust.

Please add Georges "Springer(CVO member)" Saucier from Big Boyz in Augusta Maine. Georges literally spent 4 hours on the phone with me getting my Super Tuner software updated and a canned map that was as close as I could find to my scoot cleaned up so I could flash my ECM. Finished last night at 1 am EDST after a 15 minute ride. The results are 100% improvement from the "dyno" I had the dealer do that had an absolutely terrible bottom end that fell flat on it's face. Georges said they tuned me "Fat and retarded" (rich and timing retarded). There is a noticeable difference in the power curve, the bottom end is now smooth, and the exhaust is actually quieter-which is owed to reduced fuel being dumped into the exhaust. The oil temp never exceeded 170. So there you have it. Doc do you have a tuner rec for the Seattle area? I will post the results in fuel which has been 27 mpg since the debacle dyno tune of July 8.

[Unbalanced]

Better half is from Eustis...have to make a point of riding down one day to check these folks out.

If you get down this way let me know I not far from Useless  Eustis.

[Sean M Cary]

If you get down this way let me know I not far from Useless  Eustis.

look to be down there in Oct...

[miker]

I usually stay here, the website is down...I will get reservations for 10.10-10.12.

[genecvo]

Thanks for the information - I plan on using this in the very near future. 

[Sean M Cary]

I usually stay here, the website is down...I will get reservations for 10.10-10.12.

We're looking at Shades of Green - all of the places near the convention are booked already!

Should be in Eustis the night of the 10th - day of the 11th then I have my Conference the 12-16th.  Will be working my way BACK up via Eustis and then Hog Town and then out...

Sean

[Unbalanced]

Florida Marine,

Let me know if you end up with time and want to visit some of the great back roads through the forest.

[ontos]

I wish I had read this before I had my 08 SERK dyno'd. I got the bike back last week after the dealer installed RHTD, SE A/C and SERT. It had 1012 miles on it. Bike runs worse than it did stock! Dyno guy said he couldn't adjust AFR because I have a "closed loop." Is this true? He only had the bike for about an hour and there were only 14 miles put on it. The mileage includes a test ride by the tech. Is the mileage a good indicator of how many runs he made?
I got a graph from the dyno with only two lines showing HP 90 and torque 110. No temp, no AFR, no base line. I paid $260 for the tune.

[springer-]

I wish I had read this before I had my 08 SERK dyno'd. I got the bike back last week after the dealer installed RHTD, SE A/C and SERT. It had 1012 miles on it. Bike runs worse than it did stock! Dyno guy said he couldn't adjust AFR because I have a "closed loop." Is this true? He only had the bike for about an hour and there were only 14 miles put on it. The mileage includes a test ride by the tech. Is the mileage a good indicator of how many runs he made?
I got a graph from the dyno with only two lines showing HP 90 and torque 110. No temp, no AFR, no base line. I paid $260 for the tune.

Did you get SERT key with it?  Little black box with connectors on each end?  Is it a SERT or the new super tuner?  If it is the super tuner it will have a red button on the black box.  Was any software included?

[ontos]

I originally ordered the super tuner, but when I picked up the bike they told me the super tuner "wouldn't take" so they installed the SERT. They gave me credit for the price difference but didn't tell me they had done it. I noticed it on the bill when I got home. I have the CD and the dongle for the SERT. I haven't put the CD in the computer because I complained to the dealer and I didn't want to accidentally change something on the CD.

[springer-]

Ok, you don't have to worry about the CD, you can't change anything on it and you can download the software to use.  Did you get a copy of the map they "made" for you?  Also did you get any cables with the SERT?

[ontos]

No I didn't get a copy of the map. There is a number on the work order that I think identifies the map. The paper work is at home in San Antonio and I'm in Dallas. I'll be home tonight and get the #. I didn't get the cables since I didn't think I was sharp enough to mess with it myself. This is my 6th Harley but 1st fuel injection

[springer-]

The cables don't come with it, I was just checking to see if you had them anyway.  The number on the paper work might be the cal they started with.  I'll PM you my number and maybe I can help you out with it.

[Classic Beast]

Gentleman here are five questions you can ask your tuner to see what his skill level is without being conspicuous.  These are 5 simple questions that a good experienced tuner can and will be able to spit out the answers correctly and without a great deal of thought and the whole time your asking them the questions it will seem like a general conversation of you getting a little knowledge of the tuning procedures from him. If your tuner can't answer all, or any, of these questions it's time for you to search out another shop.

1) How long will my bike be on the Dyno to tune the SERT?
(answer)  4 to 5 hours
 
2) How many Dyno runs will you have to make to finish a tune?
(answer) 50 to 70 on a average
 

3) What are people talking about when they say you have to SYNCHRONIZE the VE tables?
(answer) By Synchronizing the VE Table to the Fuel Table your telling the ECM the new air flow through the motor from the mods you made.

4) I heard something about a Step Test, can you tell me what that is?
(answer) The Step Test is a program in the winPEP 7 software (Dyno Software) that allows us to sample the AFR longer for a better reading at 2%, 5%, 7%, 10%, and 15% Throttle Position. This is where the bike lives so we want a good AFR sample to make our edits.

5) Do you change the AFR Table to one value as you tune?
(answer) Yes, 13.2. This makes it easier to synchronize the VE Table.
 
If your tuner can answer these simple questions chances are (99%) you will get a good tune. I hope this will give you all a better idea who your trusting your $20,000.00 investment with.

Just trying to help!
Doc 

PS. If they don't answer all of the questions correctly, PLEASE give them my phone number for training - it's in my signature.

I have just ordered my first FI bike 09 CVO ultra classic, a few friends that have had upgrades done at the local harley shop who installed the Zippers closed loop unit for them, the shop didn't set it up very well so I had to play with it for them and got it working good so have a small amount of experiance with the Zippers unit but found the maps available were limited. My question is what would the best unit be to install on my new bike as there are lots of claims and opinions on this topic. I work on electronic controlled Caterpillar Diesels so not new to computer controlled Fuel injection, in the local area there is no one to rely on for advice or even a good dyno.

[Unbalanced]

That question is an easy one.

The TTS.. Why you say.   Steve Cole (TTS) are the ones that provided the original SERTS to Harley.   Why wouldnt you go with the guy that started it and has the most experience with it.   Besides that he has added a ton of functionality to the product that Harley wouldnt let him deliver to you the public previously.   To me that is a no brainer, and besides that if you have a look at the super tuner and spend any time with it you will be greatly disappointed by it compared to the SERT / TTS unit.

Like you said opinions are just that, but these are some hard facts that are difficult to ignore.

[sportygordy]

That question is an easy one.

The TTS.. Why you say.   Steve Cole (TTS) are the ones that provided the original SERTS to Harley.   Why wouldnt you go with the guy that started it and has the most experience with it.   Besides that he has added a ton of functionality to the product that Harley wouldnt let him deliver to you the public previously.   To me that is a no brainer, and besides that if you have a look at the super tuner and spend any time with it you will be greatly disappointed by it compared to the SERT / TTS unit.

Like you said opinions are just that, but these are some hard facts that are difficult to ignore.

Unbalanced, There were some thread discussions awhile back about full throttle problems with 2008 throttle by wire versions. The problems discussed the ECM on these models were rolling the throttle back when it sensed full throttle. A few people were thinking this could be fixed with a SERT software modification. Do you know if TTS addressed this problem with their current release?

[Unbalanced]

That is something for Doc or Steve to answer.   I haven't played with it yet.

[Doc 1]

Unbalanced, There were some thread discussions awhile back about full throttle problems with 2008 throttle by wire versions. The problems discussed the ECM on these models were rolling the throttle back when it sensed full throttle. A few people were thinking this could be fixed with a SERT software modification. Do you know if TTS addressed this problem with their current release?

Yes indeed this problem has been eliminated. In the ECM for the Drive By Wire there was a code that shut down the throttle plate at a certain speed, it is called the Vehicle Speed Limiter, Steve removed the code in the 200 calibrations so this won't be an issue with the TTS calibrations....super Tuner still has it in their 202 cals.

[sportygordy]

Yes indeed this problem has been eliminated. In the ECM for the Drive By Wire there was a code that shut down the throttle plate at a certain speed, it is called the Vehicle Speed Limiter, Steve removed the code in the 200 calibrations so this won't be an issue with the TTS calibrations....super Tuner still has it in their 202 cals.

Doc,, good news, I'll be ordering one up here shortely.. Do you have it set up for Visa or MC yet..

thanks

[Doc 1]

Doc,, good news, I'll be ordering one up here shortely.. Do you have it set up for Visa or MC yet..

thanks

No credit cards....sorry, I will take pay pal if your willing to pay the 3% charge they charge me to give you a discount. This is why I want to deal with money orders or personal checks. Giving pay pal $17.50 for every transaction is just a rip, I want to help you all out with the 10% discount but I won't go in the hole doing it.

[Steve Cole]

There are several reasons things happen in the 2008  DBW bikes and they have been addressed in our new .mt7 files. Some dyno operators have noticed that the throttle blade does not go full open and they do not understand why. The truth is it does not need to be full open at all engine speeds for the best performance. What you need to look at is intake pressure to determine where the blade needs to be. Once the engine MAP reading hits 98 kPa opening the blade further will do nothing and can event hurt performance. The blade opening is adjustable in our product but I do not recommend anyone reseting it until they properly understand how to work with it. I think if you use one of our base files and tune it into your combination you will be very happy how it rides and runs.

[Classic Beast]

I'm new to the Harley fuel injection and of course there is as much miss information out there as there is the good stuff. Below are a couple of excerpts from a website I found, with the link below, would you find any truth to this. The other thing is the Delphi system on the Harley superior in any way to the replacement ECU's like the Tmax or others. It would seem to me the reason to supply a new control box is because you have no way to write software on the Harley system but of course in your situation it's different as you can do that. I have ordered a 09 CVO Ultra Classic will your system be compatable to that.


Your RSR ECU is speed-density based. It is not a speed/throttle angle or "N-Alpha"system. This means it looks at manifold pressure and engine speed to determine how much fuel to deliver to your engine.

Unlike notchy throttle angle systems your RSR EFi constantly monitors load and rpm and adjusts for temperatures, altitude, O2 feedback, accleration enrichments and throttle postion to provide smooth transitions. If you think about it you will realize you really do not move your throttle very much, so throttle angle systems do not make much sense.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/efiharley.htm

[Steve Cole]

That is the same as the stock Delphi system as it's Speed Density as well and it compensated  for all the same things already so why change to nothing more than the same old thing. To me it's much simpler to tune it properly and be done with it. We just checked out 2 2009 bikes at the dealership and we should have some base calibrations ready in 2 to 3 weeks. So 2009 looks pretty good to go at this point.

[nomadltd]

Yes indeed this problem has been eliminated. In the ECM for the Drive By Wire there was a code that shut down the throttle plate at a certain speed, it is called the Vehicle Speed Limiter, Steve removed the code in the 200 calibrations so this won't be an issue with the TTS calibrations....super Tuner still has it in their 202 cals.

I have an 08 springer. It has V&H longshots and it was dynotuned (SE pro super tuner kit) where it made 87 HP and 108 tq. It comes on strong (near straight up) at around 3200 and stays there straight thru till around 5800, where it starts to taper off, but not by much. The issue I have is that it hits 120 mph fast and hard in fourth... then nothing... it will not move any faster than that. the rev limiter is set at 6200, and the dealer doesn't know if or how to make it any faster. They tell me that that is all the bike has. Is what you are talking about above the same as what I am dealing with? I don't think my bike is wire controlled, and I don't know if the tuner I have is the same as what you guys are talking about. Any info is appreciated, thanks a ton,


Ryan

[spydglide]

I have an 08 springer. It has V&H longshots and it was dynotuned (SE pro super tuner kit) where it made 87 HP and 108 tq. It comes on strong (near straight up) at around 3200 and stays there straight thru till around 5800, where it starts to taper off, but not by much. The issue I have is that it hits 120 mph fast and hard in fourth... then nothing... it will not move any faster than that. the rev limiter is set at 6200, and the dealer doesn't know if or how to make it any faster. They tell me that that is all the bike has. Is what you are talking about above the same as what I am dealing with? I don't think my bike is wire controlled, and I don't know if the tuner I have is the same as what you guys are talking about. Any info is appreciated, thanks a ton,


Ryan

Whew........a 'buck twenty-five' is fast enough for me on a 'springer'.  har!  spyder

[nomadltd]

yeah, it was for me too till I took a gixxer on. Left him straight up till I ran outta legs. He didnt get me by much, but still. Its a funny thing, I never was into the speed thing till I had something that could go. I never even knew what a CVO was till I went in to buy a heritage. When they showed me the picture of a springer, I knew I had to have one. No idea that they were as fast as they are. Now all I want to do is go faster! My first 1/4 run will be next friday, and I am anxious to see what it will pull. Any one here tracked theirs?

[rednectum]

yeah, it was for me too till I took a gixxer on. Left him straight up till I ran outta legs. He didnt get me by much, but still. Its a funny thing, I never was into the speed thing till I had something that could go. I never even knew what a CVO was till I went in to buy a heritage. When they showed me the picture of a springer, I knew I had to have one. No idea that they were as fast as they are. Now all I want to do is go faster! My first 1/4 run will be next friday, and I am anxious to see what it will pull. Any one here tracked theirs?

woohooo!!!!!!!!!!!1 please report back. RT, 60 ft, 1000 ft, trap speed, et. get video, have fun. make several runs to find the best run. yeeeeehaaaa, another drag racer!

[nomadltd]

okay, here it is. I got two runs in due to technical difficulties with their computers at the track, and then bad weather. Both were near identical, and this was my first run at the track ever.

r/t ( .243)
60' (2.038)
330' (5.307)
1/8 (8.032)
MPH  90.72
1000' (10.424)
1/4 (12.471)
MPH (108.84)

I think with a better launch I will be able to trim some off of that, but time will tell.