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[HOGMIKE]

I think a lot of people are waiting for the aftermarket to come up with exhaust systems. Most I've seen here are NOT waiting (remember guys, patience is a virtue!!!) and doing their own mods. It's interesting to see how creative bikers can be!
My own thoughts are to wait until after the new year, get rid of my cat one way or another, bite the bullet, do a full dyno tune and ride happy! Most of us have another bike that we have "dialed in", and can ride that until the aftermarket catches up with the '09's, right?? LOL
From what I've seen here, this forum is full of "gear heads", and that's great for gathering info, and getting answers that the dealership can't (won't) supply!
"Great job" to all those who are not afraid to experiment, ask questions, grab a torch, saw, drill, etc!!!

[miker]

That is how I tuned my last bike.  I did not have combustion analyzers so I went with map, ve and afr...It seemed to work pretty good.

Other than the speeding ticket between data set changes...I forgot to mention the safety disclaimer about 3 gear full pulls on public roads...

[GregKhougaz]

I actually spent the last 3 hrs with a local dyno guy (using Master Tune), and he walked me through most all of what the stock system can do, or, is capable of doing verses what a good dyno and Mastertune can do.   Takes him about 8-10 hrs! Hmmmm....I guess it goes back to HP=$$, how fast do you want to go?

 He showed me the charts using sniffers in each cyl, at every 250 RPM and the A/F at that setting under a set load. Seems you can adjust to MAP and not really need the O2, right??

That seems extreme to me.  Dynos have no standard calibration so you can't compare numbers from bike to bike unless dyno'd on the same machine.  My tuner says the computer / SERT does everything at and the guys who "custom tune"  at every 250 are spending a lot of your $$ to get maybe 1 extra hp.  On the track, that may mean something but does it really to us?  Just askin'

[HOGMIKE]

That seems extreme to me.  Dynos have no standard calibration so you can't compare numbers from bike to bike unless dyno'd on the same machine.  My tuner says the computer / SERT does everything at and the guys who "custom tune"  at every 250 are spending a lot of your $$ to get maybe 1 extra hp.  On the track, that may mean something but does it really to us?  Just askin'

I was wondering about that also; if the cost justified the small increase you would actually receive. I'm not really convinced that you would need to see VE at EXACTLY your target at every 250 RPM on each cylinder. Granted, if you are racing and want a 1HP edge, yes, but, everyday riding??? Hmmmm.....Maybe Steve C. can convince me how deep you really have to go into the programming for 90% of the riding we do. My plan is to go "all the way", but, I have some other things to add to the bike first.
Just askin'

[Steve Cole]

Look at it this way and maybe it will answer most of your questions. The older bikes (pre 2006) ran in open loop so you got what was in there with no adjustments. So those models would act just like a carb. bike and need to be tuned with just about any changes to the airflow of the bike. Now you get to the later bikes with O2 sensors and the system can make changes to bring the fuel mixture around for small airflow changes. An Air Cleaner or Slip-on muffler by themselves and the stock system can adjust for it, but put them together and it's too much for it to adjust for. Now with the later bikes and Mastertune anyone who is willing to spend the time and has a laptop can tune the bike and get at least 90% of the power and drive ability without a dyno. With some understanding of how the engine works and spending the time making adjustment you can get to 95% as you learn. Now the early bikes you have to do the old fashion way, just as you would with a carb. and lots of people have tuned a carb's without a dyno but you need to know what your doing.

Now is the last little bit worth it to you, only you can answer that question on an O2 equipped bike. If it's an early bike without O2 sensors I would let someone who knows what there doing tune it.

[HOGMIKE]

Look at it this way and maybe it will answer most of your questions. The older bikes (pre 2006) ran in open loop so you got what was in there with no adjustments. So those models would act just like a carb. bike and need to be tuned with just about any changes to the airflow of the bike. Now you get to the later bikes with O2 sensors and the system can make changes to bring the fuel mixture around for small airflow changes. An Air Cleaner or Slip-on muffler by themselves and the stock system can adjust for it, but put them together and it's too much for it to adjust for. Now with the later bikes and Mastertune anyone who is willing to spend the time and has a laptop can tune the bike and get at least 90% of the power and drive ability without a dyno. With some understanding of how the engine works and spending the time making adjustment you can get to 95% as you learn. Now the early bikes you have to do the old fashion way, just as you would with a carb. and lots of people have tuned a carb's without a dyno but you need to know what your doing.

Now is the last little bit worth it to you, only you can answer that question on an O2 equipped bike. If it's an early bike without O2 sensors I would let someone who knows what there doing tune it.

Thanks, Steve.
If I understand this correctly, with you a dyno and Mastertune, you can achieve 99-100% of the potential of the new bikes ('09). Do you use the N/B O2 sensors? If so, that would work in closed loop, right?
Local tech here says he can't use them because of the N/B limitations (basically an "on/off" switch), and has to use "open loop" programming.

It looks like that given a little instruction with Mastertune and getting a baseline (using the OEM A/F targets) you can actually GET the 90% you speak of, right?? I like the idea you can save the OEM program, and load it back to the ECU if necessary. I also like the idea of speedo calibration, FBW calibration and all the rest. Can you actually get your target A/F at all loads (using MAP?) and rpms with this software?? If so, perfect!
Thanks again for educating me on the new stuff.......woe is me.......why can't I just slap a Linkert on the '09 and make it run??? LOL

[Steve Cole]

Let me start by saying the local HD tech needs to go back to school and learn. The Factory O2 sensors are used and work quite well. Remember that is what your bike runs on day in and day out! They allow you to get the VE tables correct at all the areas you collect data in. So on a load control dyno you can get more areas quicker than you can on the street this is what makes it easier to do on the dyno. On the street you will have to see what you get by normal riding then move on to using the brake to hold the motor back or adding some weight (passenger) to get the engine into other operating ranges. Once the VE's are corrected the AFR table will give you what you call for and that handles the open loop areas. So what's left is timing and WOT runs. Those too can be done with the software but it just takes the time to read the instructions and follow them. Everything you need is there in the software provided.

[HOGMIKE]

Let me start by saying the local HD tech needs to go back to school and learn. The Factory O2 sensors are used and work quite well. Remember that is what your bike runs on day in and day out! They allow you to get the VE tables correct at all the areas you collect data in. So on a load control dyno you can get more areas quicker than you can on the street this is what makes it easier to do on the dyno. On the street you will have to see what you get by normal riding then move on to using the brake to hold the motor back or adding some weight (passenger) to get the engine into other operating ranges. Once the VE's are corrected the AFR table will give you what you call for and that handles the open loop areas. So what's left is timing and WOT runs. Those too can be done with the software but it just takes the time to read the instructions and follow them. Everything you need is there in the software provided.

Kinda what I was thinking too.....seems to me going backwards is not the correct way to go!
Thanks for the reply!

Mike

[Highjagger]

That`s exactly the reason why the Thundermax autotune is the best system , because it controls all features and reacts on different parameters for itself , you don`t have to do nothing but riding , and you do not have a bad feeling . But the Thundermax is still not available for the 09ers :
Response from them :

       <sup>The Thunder Max for the 2008-2009 Touring models are not available yet. They should be soon. If you reply back to me with all of your information I can put you on the list for one when they do become available. I will need your full name, phone number and address to put you in our data base.
 
Thanks
 
Pat Little
pat.l@zippersperformance.com

Phone 410.579.2828 x108
Fax 410.579.2833
www.zippersperformance.com
www.thunder-max.com


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[HOGMIKE]

That`s exactly the reason why the Thundermax autotune is the best system , because it controls all features and reacts on different parameters for itself , you don`t have to do nothing but riding , and you do not have a bad feeling . But the Thundermax is still not available for the 09ers :
Response from them :

       ^{The Thunder Max for the 2008-2009 Touring models are not available yet. They should be soon. If you reply back to me with all of your information I can put you on the list for one when they do become available. I will need your full name, phone number and address to put you in our data base.
 
My dilemma, only a few systems are available for the '09's, and when I make the decision, it will have to have product support, and upgrade capabilities.
Thanks for your input.}