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[Graybeard]

Mike;

I have seen the Nightrider option and it does look like a quick solution, but I wonder if you go with the Fullsac solution and have them cut the cat out, there should be a substantial change in back pressure with the cat missing. Mike over at Harley seemed to say that the stock HD ECM was very limited, and with any substantial changes, I would need a PCV or some other brand to accommodate it.

Didn't know about the stock intake. Will research and see how much difference the improved model is for the 2010 CVO conv.

Also, if Fullsac does the cat removal, are you going to have the muffler powder coated in ceramic. I seem to have read that somewhere (Might have been on of your articles). I was also wondering about the db level of the Rush 1.75 vs the Fullsac modification. I'm looking for a little more "Harley" rumble, but I don;t want a lot of noise at cruise. If the cat is removed, and new baffles installed in your stock, I wonder if that will be louder than the Rush with just the 1.75s.

BTW...if you feel comfortable, what is Fullsac charging for the mod you described, and what time frame are they talking about


PS...Sorry if I get some of the technical details wrong. Been away from Bikes for a long time, and a lot of the technology is new to me.

Thanks

Mickey

[Wheelsnkeels]

Mike;

I have seen the Nightrider option and it does look like a quick solution, but I wonder if you go with the Fullsac solution and have them cut the cat out, there should be a substantial change in back pressure with the cat missing. Mike over at Harley seemed to say that the stock HD ECM was very limited, and with any substantial changes, I would need a PCV or some other brand to accommodate it.


Thanks

Mickey

Thats what they're taught at the Installer (Sales) classes taught by the vendors. Have those certs in the drawer here. The stock ECM has all the capability that the after market does even more. The limitations come from the O2 sensors (narrow Band) they get signal from. this is remedied using a programming tool (Master Tune TTS SERT or the HD Super SERT) The Nightrider solution will adjust to the given A/F ratio in closed loop operation. none of the methods adjust open loop. (clear as mud right)

IMO
He is just repeating what he was taught at the sales training disguised as technical training.

[MikeV]

Mickey,

This is what I was talking about the misinformation. The catalytic converter on the FLSTSE is in the muffler baffles not in the header pipes. Removal is very easy - change the mufflers or the baffles and you remove the cat. This bike is new so it no fault of the vendors. Eventually the design specifics will get out there but for now - know thy ride!

Mike

[Mr. Wizard]

Goldfar came over today joining me for a nice ride in the country. It's 52* here today and the last sun we will see for a while.

He listened as I cranked the SESG with the Fullsac "B" X Pipe and 1.75 Fullsac baffles. He rode behind me so I cranked her up through the RPM's on a few shifts on an wide open road. When we came back he immediately wanted to know how to get in touch with Fullsac for his 1.75 baffles for his ConV.

Now, I'm going to say this which will probably get me in all kinds of trouble but it is "my opinion" and mine only. So don't whoop me for being honest about my beliefs.

Rush, My opinion is... they sell a ton of mufflers and baffles. That's great! They have a good marketing campaign so I'm very happy for their success but... to me, Rush has a distinct tinny sound that will not be going back on any Harley I own or will own. The sound is just not what I want period. I apologize to any Rush owner that I have just offended but each of us has their own likes and dislikes.

Fullsac, I've never used Fullsac until recently. I've used Rinehart, Hooker and V&H (yes, Rush too). The Rinehart's were too loud for my taste yet I still have a set on my 07 EG Trike. Hooker has a very good sound to them, like no other, but I couldn't use them for what I own now. V&H has run me off due to their engineering practices, no thanks, their quality is not what I am looking for. I'll leave the rest of that one alone. I was skeptical about Fullsac but some of the guys here like them, some like them a lot. So, I read through some of Steve's posts and understood what he stood for and the quality he stands behind. I bit the bullet not knowing how this would turn out but but when I heard the Fullsac baffles for the first time I was very impressed with the sound and tone.

Deep tone, nice rumble, no tinny sound. The idle was nice and quiet but just a little louder than stock with a deep tone. I can't wait to put cams in my SESG and listen to the lop she will make with these pipes. Also, when you twist the throttle you don't get the "call every cop in the county" loud noise one gets with other pipes, you get a little louder deep tone that says Yes, that's right, it's a Harley so move over. While cruising you still have this deep tone but I haven't had to turn up the radio one notch yet and the decel growl makes you want to keep kicking it down in the lower gears until the bike stops and you fall over.

OK,   standing down now. Once again, I apologize if I have offended anyone with my aforementioned opinions.

[goldfar]

Yes sir, those new Fullsac baffles on Mr Wizard's SESG sound just the way a Harley should sound (to my ears).  Not too loud, nice deep rumble.  I'll be purchasing a set once they are available for the Convertable!

Beautiful afternoon here in Georgia, a little cool but clear and crisp.  Our little ride in the country this afternoon reminded me about exactly what it is that I love about riding a motorcycle. 

Thanks Mr W.

[MikeV]

Wiz,

No need for apologies that was good information based on your personal experience. I personally found it very helpful. I already know I am going to use Steve's baffles but I am not sure if I want the 1.75" or 2" ones now. I know he needed one of the baffles in hand from the ConV to take accurate measurements to start production. Did you send him one of yours? If not I would be happy to pull one of mine and send it on over to get the process going.

Mike

[Mr. Wizard]

Yes sir, those new Fullsac baffles on Mr Wizard's SESG sound just the way a Harley should sound (to my ears).  Not too loud, nice deep rumble.  I'll be purchasing a set once they are available for the Convertable!

Beautiful afternoon here in Georgia, a little cool but clear and crisp.  Our little ride in the country this afternoon reminded me about exactly what it is that I love about riding a motorcycle. 

Thanks Mr W.

Yup... was a great day for sure. Nice to see you again. Will need to get the better half's out with us and enjoy a spring day.

-wiz

[Mr. Wizard]

Wiz,

No need for apologies that was good information based on your personal experience. I personally found it very helpful. I already know I am going to use Steve's baffles but I am not sure if I want the 1.75" or 2" ones now. I know he needed one of the baffles in hand from the ConV to take accurate measurements to start production. Did you send him one of yours? If not I would be happy to pull one of mine and send it on over to get the process going.

Mike

Mike...  GF is going with the 1.75's, we are going with the 2.0's for the wife's ConV. We can compare the two and sound off (no pun intended)

I didn't send Steve one of our stock baffles. Seems he didn't need it as I couldn't part with it for long.  I did, however, send him plenty of pictures and measurements. We also knows the ConV muffler seems to be the same as most late softails with the exception of the Nostalgic Deluxe and the Cross Bones. (They have shorter mufflers.) The ConV has the CVO style muffler can with a replaceable/removable baffle. Also seems they are the same as his touring baffles, just a few inches shorter with a slash down end cap.

He is working to make the baffle lengths and size once he gets the end caps in. If these baffles sound anything like what I have they will be a good choice for the ConV. Maybe GF can tell you how far back he was when I kicked it and how loud he thought they were at that time but from where I was sitting, I was very pleased.

[Graybeard]

Guys;

Thanks again for the input. It gives me a lot to think about. Last November when I went to the Annapolis HD dealer like so many times before, just to look around. When I planted my but on the CVO convertable, I was sold. Of course.., thanks to that decision, to date in Annapolis we have had more snow this year than the past 5 combined. And this weekend they are forecasting a "perfect storm" condition, that will bring a Noreaster snow storm with forecast from 18" to 3 or more feet. I may move the Harley out of the garage and into the family room..., light a fire and sit on it while watching Wild Hogs     


I shot off a few replies to some of your comments...

Thanks for helping this new guy with his ride..

Mickey

Wheelsnkeels;

Thanks for the input and suggestions. Considering the amount of $$$ I paid for the ride, I'm a little pissed the guys are playing this game with me. I do intend to challenge them after I get more data to back me up with. I don't mind installing a PCV if it helps with the problems I'm trying to eliminate. I do have a question.., under what conditions would you install a PCV or similar......Thanks


Mike V...

I understand that Fullsac need to cut open the muffler near the head and dig out the cat element, then weld it back together. The baffles are another story..., if seen the process on other threads. I like the fact that I keep the original look. I still wonder with that much change, do you plan on a remap or dyno after? How about having Fullsac do a ceramic coat over the welded area?  ...Thanks


Mr Wizard

Great info on the Fullsac mod. I think I'm looking for the same type of sound..., not a major window rattling effect.., just a deeper tone that sounds more Harley. As for your weather.., you see from above what I'm dealing with reading what ....Thanks


Goldfar

Appreciate your endorsement also. This info really helps me a lot in making my decision. Glad you are enjoying the weather down there.

[Graybeard]

Since you mentioned it then he should be willing to give the same discount that all the other vendors that have joined here have given and that is clearly written in our rules of posting to www.CVOHARLEY.com. Think about it if you were one of the vendors that have offered the required discount and we gave him something different/special..... I doubt you would be happy. Fair is fair, sorry he couldn't abide by our request, but it wouldn't be fair to treat him different then the vendors that have come before him or will come after him.


 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

Wanted to comment on Fired00d response.

Please understand I did not know the policy and in no way am I critical of the way this site is managed. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to participate. Just was a little sympathetic with Jamie at Fuelmoto, based on his observations. I don't want to take sides here. CVOHARLEY has a policy that equally applies to everyone.....fair enough......Thanks again

Mickey

[Fired00d]

Wanted to comment on Fired00d response.

Please understand I did not know the policy and in no way am I critical of the way this site is managed. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to participate. Just was a little sympathetic with Jamie at Fuelmoto, based on his observations. I don't want to take sides here. CVOHARLEY has a policy that equally applies to everyone.....fair enough......Thanks again

Mickey

It's all good.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[MikeV]

Mike V...

I understand that Fullsac need to cut open the muffler near the head and dig out the cat element, then weld it back together. The baffles are another story..., if seen the process on other threads. I like the fact that I keep the original look. I still wonder with that much change, do you plan on a remap or dyno after? How about having Fullsac do a ceramic coat over the welded area?  ...Thanks

Graybeard,

Luckily for us that's only the case for the touring models, not the Softail ConV. The cat lives only in the muffler baffles and that does not need any  cutting or welding to remove. If you change the muffler or just the baffles you will be cat free (fellas, correct me if I am wrong here). I am leaving the air cleaner alone for now so adding the XiED's to richen up the mixture is all I plan on doing for now. I really do not think a remap or dyno is necessary for these relatively minor changes. Either way I'll know soon enough and I can always go back and do futher tuning.

Mike

[Mr. Wizard]

Guys;

Thanks again for the input. It gives me a lot to think about. Last November when I went to the Annapolis HD dealer like so many times before, just to look around. When I planted my but on the CVO convertable, I was sold. Of course.., thanks to that decision, to date in Annapolis we have had more snow this year than the past 5 combined. And this weekend they are forecasting a "perfect storm" condition, that will bring a Noreaster snow storm with forecast from 18" to 3 or more feet. I may move the Harley out of the garage and into the family room..., light a fire and sit on it while watching Wild Hogs     

My wife's family is still in Silver Spring. Thanks for the update. We just called Mamma to make sure she is prepared and has her cell phone charged. Extra coffee, milk and bread will be picked up tomorrow just in case.

[Mr. Wizard]

Graybeard,

Luckily for us that's only the case for the touring models, not the Softail ConV. The cat lives only in the muffler baffles and that does not need any  cutting or welding to remove. If you change the muffler or just the baffles you will be cat free (fellas, correct me if I am wrong here). I am leaving the air cleaner alone for now so adding the XiED's to richen up the mixture is all I plan on doing for now. I really do not think a remap or dyno is necessary for these relatively minor changes. Either way I'll know soon enough and I can always go back and do futher tuning.

Mike

No correction needed. You hit the nail on the head.

Simply remove your mufflers from the ConV, drill out six pop rivets, pop out the stock baffles, remove the stock baffle wrap and install it on your new baffles. Install the pop rivets after sliding the baffles in the cans and put them back on the bike... done.

The bike's computer, the ECM, will compensate for the extra back pressure relief and will soon resort back to the original lean stock condition for up to a 2.0" baffle if no other changes were made. I would, however, recommend some sort of fuel management system to relieve the heat you will experience this summer and to improve the bike's performance.

I can only suggest that you do your homework to see which fuel management system is right for you and completely understand it's limitations before you buy. Please don't regulate your decision on cost. Cheap is exactly that, cheap, and may not give your the results you need. There's no substitute for quality and is the best use for your hard earned cash when you consider more modifications at a later date.   

[MikeV]

I would love to see the AFR values as they are in the stock computer on a stock CVO and compare it to the values in one of the maps that would be used for mild intake and exhaust mods. This is my first time through all this and while I am picking up a lot of good information nothing beats empirical evaluation of the data. The IED decision is not a matter of the lower cost (although it's a plus), it's because it will get the closed loop AFR to 13.8:1 but otherwise maintains the other stock settings. The extra fuel should keep the engine running better and cooler.  From what I have read so far, I am mot sure what else more aggressive fuel mapping would buy me at this stage of the build. I have an IR thermometer to measure the before and after temps and It should be a fun experiment.

NOW - should I continue with mods which seems like the natural progression for this disease, I will have to dig deeper into optimizing the performace as the deviation from stock goes outside the range of what the computer can handle. That will get me into all the discussions on which fuel management system to go with as well as the big question whether to dyno or not to dyno. But that is for another thread.

I think I got it bad - I can't say you guys didn't warn me, you did on the first day.  I think I need a beer now...


Mike