Topic: Front End DECELL wobble!!!!!!!!!! (Read 14930 times)

motosman1 · « **on:** January 15, 2011, 03:19:55 PM »

Had my third customer, this morning, with a potentially violent "headshake" only when decelling from anything above 50mph. All three cases the same symptoms. 2010 and 2011 (today was the first 2011) FLTRSE, less than 3000 mi., one with stock windshield, two with Klok Werks. 4th, 5th or 6th gear, roll off throttle to slow down. As speedo reaches apx. 45mph, slight wobble begins and increases until apx. 35 mph, then quits. Found strg. head set at 3-4 full swings, adjusted to 1 1/4 swings. Bikes will still set up a headshake at same conditions, BUT only if hands are not on bars. Better, but I know there is still a geometry issue not addressed yet. No such irrepairable complaints from "Batwing" fairing owners, only fixed fairing bikes. Already investigated the more obvious/traditional points: tires, air psi, runout, alignment etc... Hard to believe in frame flex, but is the new frame TOO rigid? Does the "Batwing" fairing act as a spoiler to mask the condition?

I've seen this condition as far back as 2001. I can't come up with a solution until I understand the cause. ANY help? Anybody?

motosman1 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2011, 03:25:28 PM »

I know......I've already used the MOCO scapegoat of "at no time should you remove both hands from the bars" to buy myself a little time. BUT I know someting is amiss!

BryantH · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2011, 05:43:58 PM »

Had the same exact problem on my 09 SERG. Hands off the bars from 45 - 35 and she did an extreme dance. Hands lightly on the bars, she still danced upon slowing down or coasting but not as bad. Explained situation to dealer and was told never to ride with hands off the bars. One of the techs took her for a spin and came back and approached the shop manager and said, he's right - the bike shouldn't do that even if he takes his hands off bars. I veleive it shook him up a bit.

He tightened the neck bearing to the specs of the 08 (I think that's what he said) and I have been problem free for 12,000 miles (hands off or on bars at any speed). This occured when my SERG had 3,000 or so miles.

BryantH

Ghost__Rider · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2011, 06:13:04 PM »

This is nothing new. Roadglides have had this problem for many years. Just don't let go of the handle bars is the only fix.

screem · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2011, 06:39:07 PM »

Had the de-cell issue with my hands of bars too, worse if the tourpak was on. I have found this bike is very sensitive to front fork oil being left in for recomended time. Wobble went away with the neck properly adjusted, and fresh fork oil

sadunbar · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2011, 06:46:32 PM »

Quote from: bobmcmahon on January 15, 2011, 06:13:04 PM

This is nothing new. Roadglides have had this problem for many years. Just don't let go of the handle bars is the only fix.

Really? None of my Roadglides had this issue...

Not that I doubt some are experiencing this problem, but there has to be a cause that can be diagnosed and corrected...

mhoppe · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2011, 08:13:21 PM »

I had an 09 FLHTRSE no problem. The first ride out on my 11 FLTRUSE I almost dumped the motorcycle. HD South technician took it for a spin and came back right away and adjusted the neck bearing torque.
No more issues.

Ghost__Rider · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2011, 10:03:03 PM »

They are awesome bikes, but if you haven't experienced this you are one of the lucky ones. Just be aware there is a issue with this. tightening the steering head bearings does help, but does not give a explanation for the problem. Do a search, this has been around for several years with the Road Glides. I have buddy with a 09 and his will tank slap the bars if you don't grab the bars. And the head bearing have been tightened. If he is slowing down and lets the bars go below 35 mph, his front end with start wobbling and if not stopped will go from a wobble to a full blown tank slap.

hard10 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2011, 10:47:57 PM »

Would a Traxxion Dynamics front end solve this problem?

Ghost__Rider · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2011, 10:51:49 PM »

I would think a steering stabilizer like they put on the trikes would be the ticket. Rather than over tightening the steering bearings.

FNGw/08SERK · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2011, 08:53:55 AM »

Quote from: sadunbar on January 15, 2011, 06:46:32 PM

Really? None of my Roadglides had this issue...

Not that I doubt some are experiencing this problem, but there has to be a cause that can be diagnosed and corrected...

With the Traxxion I had the decel wobble. Tightened up steering head and all better. The further back I adjusted the king tp on the George Anderson relocator the worse the decel wobble reared it's ugly head. I think there was a spec change to the fall away test but I can't find the document. Anybody else have that info??

grc · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2011, 09:59:55 AM »

Quote from: GH on January 16, 2011, 08:53:55 AM

With the Traxxion I had the decel wobble. Tightened up steering head and all better. The further back I adjusted the king tp on the George Anderson relocator the worse the decel wobble reared it's ugly head. I think there was a spec change to the fall away test but I can't find the document. Anybody else have that info??

This might be what you're looking for:

Jerry

BTW, one of the earlier posts is absolutely correct, the actual cause of the problem isn't the head bearings. But head bearing adjustment is critical to controlling the situation, as well as it is to the life of the bearings and races. A thorough review of things like rake and trail might give folks a better understanding of the root cause. Also a trip down memory lane to the days of those spinning tops and other toys. Remember how they would lose their tight rotation and start to wobble and spiral as they slowed?

motosman1 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2011, 12:04:26 PM »

Update!!! Just got a call from the owner of the bike in question. Fortunately he is somewhat of a do-it-yourselfer. The bike left our shop with apx. 1 1/4 swings in FE. After a twenty mile ride back to his house, he put the bike on a Fat Jack and measured 3 1/2-4 swings. He said the stem nut and pinch bolts were tight. He had the tool to reach the spanner nut so adjusted down to only 1 swing. Rode bike over the weekend and said he cannot MAKE the FE shake, even with no hands on bars! He saw the 1 1/4 swing and watched me torque the nut and pinch bolts, so it was set to factory specs. Service manual (section 1.20) says 1 swing minimum, 2 swings max. Possible that the races were not fully seated? Apparently 1 full swing, possibly a little less, is the proper spec?

??

motosman1 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2011, 12:11:15 PM »

OBTW- This may be the "fix" but I still have NO technical explanation!

Pony Boy · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2011, 12:55:38 PM »

I have a 2011 SERG and i had the same problem out of the box.....It may be the front tire....my dealer adjusted the "fallaway" with no change... put on a wheel from diffferent bike and ...TA.. DA! no issue... they removed the tire and spun the wheel no issues... placed on difernet new tire and re-installed on bike... Issue gone.... the Dunlop tires are hit or miss.....

cwright2 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2011, 11:38:15 AM »

I had a 03 had a bad front tire which cause the Walpole replaced it and it went away. Never had a issue with my 09. But my 2011 right out of the box at 35, it was pretty violent. Dealer adjusted the head and it went away, but it is back again now. I believe the neck bearings were not seated properly.

motosman1 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2011, 07:30:20 PM »

I think I'm to the point of accepting that the neck brg. races were not fully seated in the frame. Only makes sense that other bikes I adjusted at 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 mi. services have not had repeat incidences. Thanks for all the input!

kiwihog · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2011, 10:46:54 PM »

just experienced this for myself just got going on some errands went to pull jacket sleeves down to cover my gloves and away it went kinda freaked me out hope they get a fix for it

danner55 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2011, 07:07:37 AM »

This problem is not new to the FLT"S. I bought my FLTC back in 1991 & had to address this issue from day 1. I've had everything checked out & their is no explanation for the wobble. Back in 1991 MOCO said you were not to ride with no hands. I've replaced tires over the years & no help. About 12 years ago I added new chrome lower legs & it did help but didn't fix it. It did make it better. BUT you never know when it will go into a wobble. I've been told it has something to do with the fixed fairing. It has never done it at high speeds, just @ 35mph.It is just a characteristic of the beast. My new 2011 FLHTCUSE6 doesn't have that handling issue. I guess after riding a FLT for 20 years I wanted to try a batwing fairing bike. So far I like my new ride.

09S/E roadglide · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2011, 07:46:08 AM »

19k mi on mine and the problem has always come and gone. had the neck adjusted, front tire change, traxxion, it just comes and goes ?

danner55 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2011, 07:53:48 AM »

I have 86K on my 1989 FLT & still have the problem once in a while!

darth davidson · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:56:23 AM »

Quote from: Ghost__Rider on January 15, 2011, 06:13:04 PM

This is nothing new. Roadglides have had this problem for many years. Just don't let go of the handle bars is the only fix.

Don't let go the handlebars? I thought that safety first includes keeping your hands on the Handles at all times. I guess i'll never notice this issue , since I ALWAYS have my hands on the bars.

spydglide · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2011, 08:59:03 AM »

Quote from: darth davidson on February 10, 2011, 08:56:23 AM

Don't let go the handlebars? I thought that safety first includes keeping your hands on the Handles at all times. I guess i'll never notice this issue , since I ALWAYS have my hands on the bars.

And how pray tell, do you reload when returning fire?

har. spyder

grc · « **Reply #23 on:** February 10, 2011, 09:14:11 AM »

Take a close look at the front end specifications for a 1980 and later touring model, especially the rake, and the propensity for "wobbles" might become more easily understood. A front end designed for quicker turning will tend to also be more "twitchy". Everything is a tradeoff.

As for riding around with your hands off the bars, other than reloading as mentioned by spyder, why would you do that? If someone is only experiencing the wobble when riding with no hands on the bars, they don't have a (motorcycle) problem. If there is a wobble with your hands on the bars, then that is a problem.

Jerry

Beemer · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2011, 09:48:09 AM »

Quote from: GH on January 16, 2011, 08:53:55 AM

With the Traxxion I had the decel wobble. Tightened up steering head and all better. The further back I adjusted the king tp on the George Anderson relocator the worse the decel wobble reared it's ugly head. I think there was a spec change to the fall away test but I can't find the document. Anybody else have that info??

I had the same problem and I believe I've previously posted here somewhere on it . When we removed the QD Tourpak (which is set further back) the wobble disappeared. When the HD Tech adjusted the neck bearing the wobble was still there albeit diminished somewhat. Tourpak off...no wobble. They agreed with me that it shouldn't do this and sympathised with me on me finding it hard to accept...but they stated they already knew Had's answer...you should NEVER ride without both hands on the bars! "Failure to comply could result in injury or death". Their cover-all

Texas 103 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 10, 2011, 03:59:29 PM »

Quote from: kiwihog on February 09, 2011, 10:46:54 PM

just experienced this for myself just got going on some errands went to pull jacket sleeves down to cover my gloves and away it went kinda freaked me out hope they get a fix for it

I fixed mine by setting the swing to just barely 1 swing. ...That swing test in my opinion is bogus , How do you get an accurate swing with all the chit going through the instrument pod. .. You don't. When those come down the line , the triple tree is put on the bike, adjusted then all the other chit goes on after the fact and it isn't checked or adjusted again... RG's are a bit different then the batwing bikes due to the faring, and the weight of the other stuff in the faring, have to run the RG's tighter...

North Star · « **Reply #26 on:** February 10, 2011, 10:33:29 PM »

I got to stay off these forums.... This sounds scary- luckily Ive never experienced this and hopefully never will. I quit reading the twin cam section on this forum because of all the " my engine blew up" threads.

CVODON · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2011, 10:17:28 PM »

Mine developed this shake problem as the tires, both front and rear, became more "cupped" around 10,000 miles, it now has gotten much worse at 12250 miles. I am going to replace the tires next week. The roar from the cupped tires is more annoying than the shake, noise is all the time, shake is just when hands are off the bars.

trahog · « **Reply #28 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:10:00 AM »

I've had the 2009 cvo road glide and now the 2011 cvo street glide new front tire after 400 miles proper head bolt adjustments,better but I've found the only way to stop the shake is pull in the clutch at decel no shake ,only happened at 45-to 35 on both bikes,try pullinngin the clutch and see what happens

grc · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:38:15 AM »

Quote from: trahog on February 16, 2011, 08:10:00 AM

I've had the 2009 cvo road glide and now the 2011 cvo street glide new front tire after 400 miles proper head bolt adjustments,better but I've found the only way to stop the shake is pull in the clutch at decel no shake ,only happened at 45-to 35 on both bikes,try pullinngin the clutch and see what happens

Sounds like you're talking about a different kind of "shake". Engine shake that vibrates the fairing when coasting down in gear, especially below 2000 rpm, has been around for a very long time. If that's what you're referring to, then yes pulling the clutch lever once you reach the affected engine speed on coast down will eliminate that. So will a better tune at low speeds and idle. A true front end wobble, however, will not be eliminated by disengaging the clutch.

Jerry

JCZ · « **Reply #30 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:55:28 AM »

Quote from: North Star on February 10, 2011, 10:33:29 PM

I got to stay off these forums.... This sounds scary- luckily Ive never experienced this and hopefully never will. I quit reading the twin cam section on this forum because of all the " my engine blew up" threads.

Yep.....gotta sell that Road Glide and get a much better handling batwing fairing. I ride without hands often, even in curvy roads, in the wind, etc.

On the serious side......the high speed wobbles on decel was happening to another member of this forum. He'd already had it to two other dealerships to check the fall away. They both told him it was within specs. We were on a weekend ride and stopped at the dealership in Carson City (I was getting scared for him and her). Told them the symptoms and that two other dealerships said it was within specs but that something clearly wasn't right. They took the bike in (it was closing time) and spent an hour with it (had two service guys back there on it)......came out and said it wasn't within specs but that it is now. No more problems.

So this may lend to the idea that the bearing races weren't seated from the factory and eventrually dropped down in like they belong and then set the correct fall away toleraence.

I kept trying to tell him he should have just bought a batwing fairing bike and he wouldn't be having handling issues.

FNGw/08SERK · « **Reply #31 on:** February 16, 2011, 10:00:39 AM »

Not sure if it's been mentioned but there is/was a known issue with Alcoa rims being out of round on the 09 SERGs. Not sure the problem has carried over but thought it worth throwing it out there jic!!

spydglide · « **Reply #32 on:** February 16, 2011, 11:33:28 AM »

Quote from: GH on February 16, 2011, 10:00:39 AM

Not sure if it's been mentioned but there is/was a known issue with Alcoa rims being out of round on the 09 SERGs. Not sure the problem has carried over but thought it worth throwing it out there jic!!

Was that the only model that had the out of round rims, GH?

spyder

JCZ · « **Reply #33 on:** February 16, 2011, 12:19:04 PM »

Quote from: GH on February 16, 2011, 10:00:39 AM

Not sure if it's been mentioned but there is/was a known issue with Alcoa rims being out of round on the 09 SERGs. Not sure the problem has carried over but thought it worth throwing it out there jic!!

I don't know what the issue was, but there was a recall on the back wheel, early on. As soon as I swapped my wheels for the Blade wheels, I had the changing dealership check and they said it wasn't on the recall list. Then I got a copy of the bullitin and checked myself, when it came time to change the tire.....that dealership also said it wasn't on the list (due to misinterpreting the wording on the service bullitin). I contacted the MoCo and they called me back in a day or two and said that it is a recalled wheel, to take it back to the dealership that was going to put the tire on it and they'd arrange for a wheel swap.

I believe it was something to do with the welds, not being out of round. Sure wasn't any kind of vibration on the old wheel.

FNGw/08SERK · « **Reply #34 on:** February 16, 2011, 07:56:43 PM »

Quote from: spydglide on February 16, 2011, 11:33:28 AM

Was that the only model that had the out of round rims, GH? spyder

Not sure to what extent the problem existed, Spydy, sorry. Maybe someone in the know will chime in! But aside from the rear tire recall JC mentioned my front rim was replaced for being out of round. It took many attempts to find why my rotors were warping. Turned out to be the rim. The MOCO covered rim, rotors and pads under warranty.

spydglide · « **Reply #35 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:13:54 PM »

Quote from: GH on February 16, 2011, 07:56:43 PM

Not sure to what extent the problem existed, Spydy, sorry. Maybe someone in the know will chime in! But aside from the rear tire recall JC mentioned my front rim was replaced for being out of round. It took many attempts to find why my rotors were warping. Turned out to be the rim. The MOCO covered rim, rotors and pads under warranty.

I know that some new wheels are hard to balance.. $:-\$ ..really out. spyder

jcd520 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:24:20 PM »

Quote from: motosman1 on January 15, 2011, 03:19:55 PM

Had my third customer, this morning, with a potentially violent "headshake" only when decelling from anything above 50mph. All three cases the same symptoms. 2010 and 2011 (today was the first 2011) FLTRSE, less than 3000 mi., one with stock windshield, two with Klok Werks. 4th, 5th or 6th gear, roll off throttle to slow down. As speedo reaches apx. 45mph, slight wobble begins and increases until apx. 35 mph, then quits. Found strg. head set at 3-4 full swings, adjusted to 1 1/4 swings. Bikes will still set up a headshake at same conditions, BUT only if hands are not on bars. Better, but I know there is still a geometry issue not addressed yet. No such irrepairable complaints from "Batwing" fairing owners, only fixed fairing bikes. Already investigated the more obvious/traditional points: tires, air psi, runout, alignment etc... Hard to believe in frame flex, but is the new frame TOO rigid? Does the "Batwing" fairing act as a spoiler to mask the condition? I've seen this condition as far back as 2001. I can't come up with a solution until I understand the cause. ANY help? Anybody?

My 2011 flhxse2 does this exact same thing at approx 35mph--------batwing fairing!

GtreetSlide · « **Reply #37 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:16:28 PM »

My 09 SG doesn't wobble when slowing down. But, a couple of times while crossing the centerline into the other lane, I hit a ridge where one lane's pavement was slightly higher that the other lane. The bike went into a crazzy death wobble that almost threw me off every time. When I took the bike to the dealer about the front tire cupping issues, the mechanic said that the front bearings did not feel right, so he replaced them along with the updated front tire. Since then I have tried to hit the uneven centerline on the pavement at the same place in the road and had no issues. I think my issue was partly due to the cupping, but greatly exagerated by a defective front wheel bearing.

I am only guessing, but I think HD needs to take a look at all of their bearing installation procedures. I'm guessing that races are not being seated properly.

JMO, jb

HEADPAN62 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:23:49 PM »

Loose neck bearings

Texas 103 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 28, 2011, 11:46:17 AM »

Quote from: jcd520 on February 18, 2011, 12:24:20 PM

My 2011 flhxse2 does this exact same thing at approx 35mph--------batwing fairing!

Had the same thing happen to a buddy's batwing bike.. brought it over, tightened it up to just 1 swing..problem solved..I'm more convinced than ever that fallaway method just isn't close...

TN · « **Reply #40 on:** February 28, 2011, 03:27:18 PM »

Quote from: Texas 103 on February 28, 2011, 11:46:17 AM

Had the same thing happen to a buddy's batwing bike.. brought it over, tightened it up to just 1 swing..problem solved..I'm more convinced than ever that fallaway method just isn't close...

i concur, especially on a TR. service supplement attached.

TN

Texas 103 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 28, 2011, 05:46:44 PM »

Quote from: TN on February 28, 2011, 03:27:18 PM

i concur, especially on a TR. service supplement attached.

TN

Cut that in half and you may have something...

TN · « **Reply #42 on:** March 01, 2011, 07:46:44 AM »

Quote from: Texas 103 on February 28, 2011, 05:46:44 PM

Cut that in half and you may have something...

my 08TR does good to make it 1 swing on the fall away test, smooth as silk.

the 09 serg does just over 1 swing. when i brought the serg home it tested out around 5+ swings.

as far as a batwing bike..............................nevermind

TN

Robmay · « **Reply #43 on:** March 02, 2011, 07:05:15 PM »

Quote from: BryantH on January 15, 2011, 05:43:58 PM

Had the same exact problem on my 09 SERG. Hands off the bars from 45 - 35 and she did an extreme dance. Hands lightly on the bars, she still danced upon slowing down or coasting but not as bad. Explained situation to dealer and was told never to ride with hands off the bars. One of the techs took her for a spin and came back and approached the shop manager and said, he's right - the bike shouldn't do that even if he takes his hands off bars. I veleive it shook him up a bit.

He tightened the neck bearing to the specs of the 08 (I think that's what he said) and I have been problem free for 12,000 miles (hands off or on bars at any speed). This occured when my SERG had 3,000 or so miles.

BryantH

Same here on my 2011. Just spoke with the tech yesterday and he said even thought the previous dealer claimed to adjust the neck bearing, he liked it a little tighter than what the swing test provides. I think he said 1 1/2 swings. That waywhen it wears a little it will still be in spec. He said not to tighten it down too much so that it wears the bearing or race (sp).

sooiee · « **Reply #44 on:** March 17, 2011, 02:28:53 PM »

from experience...I'd check to make sure a wheel weight wasn't thrown.
There is also a heavy spot in the tire AND a heavy spot in the rim.
If by chance those get mounted together, you now have a very heavy spot that weight may not take out.
Heavy spots should be mounted opposite from each other and are often marked at least on the tire.
Often a weight gets thrown and immediately people begin tightening things.
Could also be a warped rotor or worn tire.

AZMike · « **Reply #45 on:** May 18, 2011, 08:55:50 PM »

Check out this story from the local Phoenix station....and this was a Road King.

http://www.kpho.com/news/27917754/detail.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dd29f707504d6ea%2C0

Cvostu · « **Reply #46 on:** May 18, 2011, 10:41:49 PM »

That is a really sad story and that they can't fix that wobble after all this time I really thing that road glides are more prone to this than bat wing fairing bikes. I would just like to see this headache go away soon I did experience that "wobble" and it is no fun at all. I won't have a RG for that reason. I

CTcvorider · « **Reply #47 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:03:30 PM »

I have to wonder why people aren't turning to steering dampeners to address this issue. They're a common item on other brands of motorcycle.

After riding my '08 SEUC for three years, and then riding my new FLTRUSE, I can feel the 'tendency' for the decell wobble. It doesn't actually do it, but it sure feels like it wants to. I think the difference is the weight of the batwing on the forks has more of a dampening effect.

I've seen a couple of sources for steering dampeners for Road Glides, but they don't reccomend them for lowered bikes because of fender clearance issues. I'd like to see one in person before seriously considering going that route.

GtreetSlide · « **Reply #48 on:** May 19, 2011, 01:24:07 PM »

Quote from: CTcvorider on May 19, 2011, 01:03:30 PM

I have to wonder why people aren't turning to steering dampeners to address this issue. They're a common item on other brands of motorcycle.

After riding my '08 SEUC for three years, and then riding my new FLTRUSE, I can feel the 'tendency' for the decell wobble. It doesn't actually do it, but it sure feels like it wants to. I think the difference is the weight of the batwing on the forks has more of a dampening effect.

I've seen a couple of sources for steering dampeners for Road Glides, but they don't reccomend them for lowered bikes because of fender clearance issues. I'd like to see one in person before seriously considering going that route.

Have you had your front wheel bearing checked? I had mine replaced at 4k miles because the mechanic said it did not feel right. All the wobble and instability went away for good after that on my 09 SG.

jb

Author Topic: Front End DECELL wobble!!!!!!!!!! (Read 14930 times)

jcd520