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Author Topic: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump  (Read 29846 times)

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J.D.

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2017, 09:39:57 PM »

Does anyone really know what the problem with the OEM pump is yet?  Bad design, cracking apart due to crank runout, squirter jets, ???
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iski

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #46 on: October 20, 2017, 01:16:26 AM »

Prices escalate rapidly when they start throwing around words like "billet".  Add in some fancy red anodizing, and the required Fueling cam plate, and I'm guessing the total price will be over a grand.  But as you noted, right now all three versions of the pump appear to be free, the cam plates are $300 and $380.

Jerry

Wondering if these are similar/same as the "new" M8 pumps?  Probably not.  Agreed they will be pricey, pretty red pump hidden where nobody can see it.  Guess they figure with regular touring bike price points starting in the mid 20s & CVOs going for 42k, buyers have money to burn. 

At some point we will see what the new HD pumps look like.  Curious as to what what the changes are, and if they will be like the ever changing compensators that continued to fail.
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mark

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #47 on: October 20, 2017, 08:50:30 AM »

So my riding buddy’s 2017 road-glide went to the shop with a bad oil pump ( 3000 miles). Harley informed the dealer to tear down the motor to see if there was as damage caused by the low oil pressure. Waiting for the verdict. The original oil pump on the m8 was a bad design.

Kojak...what engine was in your buddy's Road Glide?  Just wondering if the oil pump failure is showing up in the 107s.
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kojak

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #48 on: October 20, 2017, 05:05:31 PM »

107. He was riding one day and his oil engine light came on. He pulled over and called me. He said it went off when he hit 2200 or higher rpm, his oil level was fine and he didn't see anything wrong. I figured it was probably an electronic glitch and told him to run it in to the dealer. The dealer called Harley and was told to strip down the engine to see if there was internal damage (I'm guessing its a known problem by now). That's when they found metal shavings, top end damage and are waiting for Harley to approve an engine swap. I'll connect with him in a couple of days and get an update.
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kojak
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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2017, 06:12:31 PM »

107. He was riding one day and his oil engine light came on. He pulled over and called me. He said it went off when he hit 2200 or higher rpm, his oil level was fine and he didn't see anything wrong. I figured it was probably an electronic glitch and told him to run it in to the dealer. The dealer called Harley and was told to strip down the engine to see if there was internal damage (I'm guessing its a known problem by now). That's when they found metal shavings, top end damage and are waiting for Harley to approve an engine swap. I'll connect with him in a couple of days and get an update.

As predicted, eventually we’d see stock M8s failing due to sumping. More of these to come particularly as 2017 bike owners put more miles on their engines. Next year’s riding season could be eye opening for alot of guys that thought they avoided any sumping issues but didn’t put alot of miles on their new M8 bike this year.
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grc

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2017, 09:12:11 AM »


The problems haven't just been about sumping, there have also been mechanical failures causing low pressure.  In other words, it isn't just a performance kit problem, or a 114/117 problem, it appears to be another Harley engineering failure that could affect any M8.  I think most of us knew, even if we really wanted the M8 to be a huge improvement, that Harley couldn't avoid the mistakes that seem to plague them on everything they do.  Oil pumps are about as basic an item as there is, and yet Harley seems to have real problems getting theirs right.  Evo pumps had issues, TC pumps had issues, and now M8 pumps have issues.  Meanwhile, the rest of the vehicle industry seems to have mastered oil pumps decades ago.

Jerry
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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2017, 09:19:41 AM »

The problems haven't just been about sumping, there have also been mechanical failures causing low pressure.  In other words, it isn't just a performance kit problem, or a 114/117 problem, it appears to be another Harley engineering failure that could affect any M8.  I think most of us knew, even if we really wanted the M8 to be a huge improvement, that Harley couldn't avoid the mistakes that seem to plague them on everything they do.  Oil pumps are about as basic an item as there is, and yet Harley seems to have real problems getting theirs right.  Evo pumps had issues, TC pumps had issues, and now M8 pumps have issues.  Meanwhile, the rest of the vehicle industry seems to have mastered oil pumps decades ago.

Jerry

I have said from day one that the twin cam lifter failures were/are not a lifter issue, rather the lifter failures are a result of a basic oiling issue within the twin cam motors...

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J.D.

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2017, 09:21:17 AM »

Think about it, one can order a pretty nice brand new vehicle for less than the price of a CVO, and would be extremely disappointed if it needed any major service under 100,000 miles.

Seeing as the lifters do pretty good on the early Twin Cam engines, I attribute the chronic lifter issues on the big TCs to the aggressive cam lobes introduced.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:23:45 AM by 2002FXDWG3 »
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sadunbar

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2017, 09:28:34 AM »

Think about it, one can order a pretty nice brand new vehicle for less than the price of a CVO, and would be extremely disappointed if it needed any major service under 100,000 miles.

Seeing as the lifters do pretty good on the early Twin Cam engines, I attribute the chronic lifter issues on the big TCs to the aggressive cam lobes introduced.

The cam plate design is significantly different in the early twin cam motors vs. the twin cam motors that have experienced repeated lifter failures.

(just an observation...)

« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 09:31:09 AM by sadunbar »
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J.D.

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2017, 09:36:42 AM »

I much prefer the big roller bearings of the early plates vs bronze inserts of the later plates.  Inside info would indicate this was purely a cost cutting design change.  But the roller chains and hydraulic tensioners are definitely an improvement.  Hybrid camplate kit gets you pretty close to a good design, less the inner Morse chain that remains.

But since the later bikes have the improved oil pump but also the lifter failure issue, I would not associate the high lifter failure rate with the oil pump.
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grc

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2017, 01:26:11 PM »


IMHO the lifter failures are a direct result of the choices Harley made regarding cam profiles and valve springs.  Needle bearings (or ball bearings for that matter) do not tolerate impact very long before flat spots develop which ultimately lead to failure.  Once the bearing starts chewing itself up, it doesn't take long to have a complete failure of the lifter roller and ultimately the lifter body at the roller axle as well.  Perhaps direct oiling of the roller bearings might help extend the life of the roller and bearings, but I doubt it would eliminate the failures.

Jerry
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happyman

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2017, 12:42:17 PM »

Does anyone really know what the problem with the OEM pump is yet?  Bad design, cracking apart due to crank runout, squirter jets, ???
how many experience the abrupt de cel,  along with he total lack of power?  This happens in al gears  and in the low and lower gears it is so abrupt  it could very easily get to the point  of dangerous in different ways, depending on conditions.

 
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windjammer

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2017, 08:48:43 PM »

AMS Johnson Hy-left for direct oiling.
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pcpisano

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2017, 07:36:58 AM »

Hi guys, again I will be showing my naivety about the motorcycle repairs. My fear with the oil pump problem is that I break down during a long trip. I am going to ask for your alls opinions, but let me give you some background. I’ve owned three Harley,s in my life, ‘81 lowrider, ‘07 heritage classic, and a 09 cvo limited. I recently purchased a ‘17 cvo limited (used with 700 miles). Will pick it up in Fl and ride it to my home in NC right before Christmas (I work overseas). Except for the 09 CVO, i experienced little maintenance issues. The problem I had with the 09 was that the back spark plug seized to the head (warranty took care of it). The bike was thoroughly checked and i got an affidavit stating the had no accidents, and no mechanical failures. I had a stage I kit installed, and based on the posts I’ve studied, I’m thinking of having the dealership replace the oil pump with one of the ones listed in fueling link provided in an earlier post (will the pump listed on that website void the warranty?) I agree with all, there won’t be a recall. My concern is breaking down and doing more damage to the bike as I ride it home. I realize this is an imaginable fear, but I want to minimize the stress of a possible breakdown. My question, and all thoughts and opinions are welcomed, do you think the fueling pumps are more trustworthy than the oem oil pumps? Thanks all. Vr, Paul


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grc

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Re: Another 114 M8 Bad Oil Pump
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2017, 08:28:21 AM »


I doubt anyone can honestly answer your question.  First, no one really knows what the real root cause of the problem is, and Harley isn't talking.  Second, I don't think anyone has had first hand experience with the Fueling pumps, since they don't seem to be for sale yet (note the $0.00 prices on the pumps in that link).  I can answer the question about the warranty however.  If you install an aftermarket oil pump and then experience any lubrication related failures, Harley will deny any responsibility under the factory warranty.  So while you might think you would get improved peace of mind by changing to an aftermarket oil pump, that's not necessarily true.

JMHO - Jerry
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