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Author Topic: tranny oil in primary  (Read 6935 times)

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HOGMIKE

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 10:57:07 AM »

What is this updated vent for the primary?  A new part number?  How do you get it?

You have to start at the dealer and they do a check to see if your bike is one of those affected.
There is no part number.
Dealer works with factory to install vent in infected motorcycles.
This is sort of a one on one fix, not anything like a general recall.

There seems to be no definitive cause to this issue as the factory people and dealers point to riding style, type of oil used, modified bikes, all sorts of explanations. Not any one thing.
IF your trans fluid is low dealer will drain, measure trans and primary fluids, fill, repeat, call factory and proceed from there.

My latest bike showed this issue in the first 200 miles because I checked my dipstick when shifting and clutch operation became harder (primary full of oil).
If you have over 200-1000 miles on your last oil change check your trans oil level on the side stand
Good luck
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HOGMIKE

Twolanerider

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2019, 11:02:33 AM »

You have to start at the dealer and they do a check to see if your bike is one of those affected.
There is no part number.
Dealer works with factory to install vent in infected motorcycles.
This is sort of a one on one fix, not anything like a general recall.

There seems to be no definitive cause to this issue as the factory people and dealers point to riding style, type of oil used, modified bikes, all sorts of explanations. Not any one thing.
IF your trans fluid is low dealer will drain, measure trans and primary fluids, fill, repeat, call factory and proceed from there.

My latest bike showed this issue in the first 200 miles because I checked my dipstick when shifting and clutch operation became harder (primary full of oil).
If you have over 200-1000 miles on your last oil change check your trans oil level on the side stand
Good luck

No part numbers (for later service if necessary if nothing else).  No documented repair requirement from the factory.  Can't get info from the manufacturer and must work through the dealer only.  In another vernacular that sounds like "winging it."
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HOGMIKE

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2019, 11:23:00 AM »

No part numbers (for later service if necessary if nothing else).  No documented repair requirement from the factory.  Can't get info from the manufacturer and must work through the dealer only.  In another vernacular that sounds like "winging it."

You are correct IMHO.
But “winging it “ would not be a legal term the factory would use.
Remember, most companies, including Harley, are run by lawyers.
I have heard of only one bike that had a transmission break, but I heard that second hand.
 :soapbox:
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 11:26:17 AM by HOGMIKE »
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glinkmeyer

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2019, 12:11:03 PM »

You are correct IMHO.
But “winging it “ would not be a legal term the factory would use.
Remember, most companies, including Harley, are run by lawyers.
I have heard of only one bike that had a transmission break, but I heard that second hand.
 :soapbox:
As I discussed in another thread ( oil migration ). The transfer of oil has been going since 2017 and as I was told mother Harley allows 8 ounces of migration in a 5,000 mile oil change, mine had nine so will see if they vent my primary next service as I had 9 ounces in 4,000 mile as for the 1,000 mile break in service. The dealership has had more problems with the TriGlides, not sure why. Two members in our HOG group did break their transmissions due to oil migration.  One a 2017 the other a 2019 and the owner of the 2019 had the same problem with a 2018 thinking they had the problem fixed by buying the 2019. Just wonder how many other owners have this problem not even knowing as you would not know unless you checked your transmission level before service or measured how much oil was drained out of the primary and transmission separately. Most people probably drain all three holes together in one pan. There supposedly an aftermarket fix by installing a larger clutch rod that my dealership knows nothing about.


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HOGMIKE

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2019, 01:23:01 PM »

Remember that when most people take their bike in for oil change the tech puts the big plastic drain pan under the bike, pulls all 3 plugs, oil filter, goes to parts department gathers all needed oils, filter or whatever then back to the bike.
Installs plugs, torques them to spec(hopefully), fills oils to spec (hopefully).
Test ride to check for leaks then on to the next one.

Unless the customer mentioned to check fluids BEFORE pulling drain plugs, it usually doesn’t happen and the tech AND the customer have no clue.
I’m guessing there are a lot more bikes having this issue than we are aware of. I know at least 2 of our club riders checked theirs when we were talking about it and they had the mod done.

JMHO
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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2019, 03:52:16 PM »


So we have another secret problem Harley doesn't want to acknowledge so they issue no official bulletins, change the "specs" to allow oil to migrate wherever it wants to go, and offer those who won't accept the changed spec BS a shade tree unofficial vent to supposedly keep the oil in the trans where it belongs.  And just like the sumping issue they still haven't fixed (band-aid only, and only somewhat effective on some bikes), it's a new thing common to the M8 that wasn't common on the TC.  Should not be hard to figure out what they changed from 2016 to 2017, so once again I have no doubt they know exactly where they screwed up.  And once again it would cost too much to make a proper fix to eliminate the root cause.

It has to be getting much harder to drink that Kool-Aid and keep supporting these clowns.

Jerry
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flash1034

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2019, 01:32:09 AM »

Remember that when most people take their bike in for oil change the tech puts the big plastic drain pan under the bike, pulls all 3 plugs, oil filter, goes to parts department gathers all needed oils, filter or whatever then back to the bike.
Installs plugs, torques them to spec(hopefully), fills oils to spec (hopefully).
Test ride to check for leaks then on to the next one.

Unless the customer mentioned to check fluids BEFORE pulling drain plugs, it usually doesn’t happen and the tech AND the customer have no clue.
I’m guessing there are a lot more bikes having this issue than we are aware of. I know at least 2 of our club riders checked theirs when we were talking about it and they had the mod done.

JMHO



So far so good with mine. 
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SIX38

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2019, 05:46:44 AM »

As I described I another thread, lost 10 oz. in the first 69 miles, ‘19 Road Glide CVO. Topped off, lost 9 oz. on the 69 mile trip back to dealer. They got right on it, called and received vent kit from MOCO, had bike back in 4 days. 150 miles later all good, no transfer. Rode bike hard, easy, fast, slow, bumper to bumper, twisty, etc. Will of course be keeping a close eye on this.
I do wonder what came first, The chicken or the egg?” Looks to me that the design of the vent tube itself and the matching recess in the case had to be included in the original primary case design. Why would that recess be there otherwise, since without the hole and vent tube, it serves no purpose?? Thinking the MOCO rolled the dice, decided not to install as OE and hoped for the best.
Anyone's guess, but would love to get the real story behind this issue. My HD love/hate relationship continues. We are all nuts!🥜
Ride safe and God bless,
Tom P.
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rayson56

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2019, 02:13:33 PM »

I Just finished my 15K service and no fluid transfers and no sumping. Knock on wood, all is good!
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HOGMIKE

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2019, 05:03:48 PM »

2019 cvo limited 4500 miles.
About 1000 miles since the vent was installed
All oil levels right where they’re supposed to be.
The vent is working as it should.
I’m told this will be a running change through production rather than a re-design.
Guess we’ll see in August.
 :nixweiss:
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harley2001

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2019, 09:30:18 PM »

I've heard the vent is hit and miss, the fat rod looks promising,  have you guys seen this fix.
http://rockerlockers.com/wordpress/?page_id=215
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bigcraig

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2019, 05:23:46 PM »

Fat rod didn't work for me.

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SIX38

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2019, 08:21:00 AM »

Update:
At 900 miles, 760 since the vent kit was installed
Zero loss of transmission oil since vent install. Keeping a close eye on this.
Tom P.
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HOGMIKE

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2019, 08:49:43 AM »

I’m still trying to understand how all this works.

If oil is present in the main shaft tunnel due to being “pushed” there from the s/c past the pushrod gap, and the primary goes into a “vacuum” state and “sucks” the oil into the primary and the primary vent install stops this process what causes the vacuum in the first place?

I have my own idea why this is happening on the late model bikes but I’m not an engineer!

 :nixweiss:
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grc

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Re: tranny oil in primary
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2019, 11:52:43 AM »


The "theory" I read was that the primary runs much hotter than the trans, and that heat expands the oil and the air in the primary.  Then when the primary cools down the air and oil contract and somehow create this vacuum.  In that theory however no one tells us what happens to that higher pressure in the primary created by the expansion of hot air and oil.  If that theory actually held water, oil and air should be forced from the primary into either the trans, the crankcase, or on the ground.  The other big problem with that theory is that the primary always ran a little hotter than the trans on the older engines as well, and they did not suffer from fluid transfer from the trans to the primary.

IMHO the problems with fluid transfer as well as sumping all occurred after Harley changed the engine and trans cases for 2017, making them more compact and "form fitting" to the internal parts.  Since they have no plans to go back to the older style cases, all you will see are band-aids and no real fixes of the root cause of the problems.

Jerry
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