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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: J.D. on January 13, 2018, 10:42:06 PM
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Below is a comparison chart of some of the various oils commonly used in Harleys (with some reference oils added). Note that the list is abbreviated with generally 1 specific product per given type.
There's always a lot of debate around which is best. Like most people here, I've come to my own decisions, based on a number of criteria - viscosity, price, availability, user reviews, supplier reputation, manufacturer recommendation, and personal experience all factor in.
How do you make your choices?
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Again the ref. chart:
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How do you make your choices?
I start a new oil thread and let the highbrow philosophical discussion that ensues inform me. :huepfenlol2:
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I start a new oil thread and let the highbrow philosophical discussion that ensues inform me. :huepfenlol2:
Blasphemy, us True Believers know which oil is best, and why, and we read stuff on the internet that Must Be True to reaffirm our foregone conclusions, as the motorcycle gods intended.
:drink: :huepfenjump3:
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All joking aside, I'm always curious what fluids guys are using, especially guys with power mods. For example, I've already learned that some guys run ATF and Rotella in their primaries, and MA or MA2 is the wet clutch spec for motor oil.
On the other side, locally, I don't know how many times I've heard "whatever the dealer put in". Don't even know.
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I've seen that as well using ATF in the primary to eliminate clutch drag that is complained a lot about having myself included.
I've considered changing over to help with the drag but I have a concern about ATF giving the compensator adequate lubrication. As it doesn't have the best as it goes with the motor oil
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Yeah, oil threads are required by law here, some sort of quota for MC forums. ;D
Have used Syn3, Amsoil, & Valvoline for the motor over the past few years. Honestly have not seen any difference as to noise or performance or what the filter looks like if sliced in half.
Am running HD Formula A+ in the primary. Syn 3 in the transmission now, may change that out, maybe Redline.
You may get a lot of responses as to why this oil is better or that oil is crap. It's sort of like politics/religion. True believers, heretics, and many who are the Great Unwashed. (Wax & polish threads take care of that subject similarly). ;)
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My personal observations and criteria:
Transmission:
Shifts quietly
Clicks into gear quickly and easily
Drain plug is clean at change
Dyed (not colorless) a plus
Seals don't weep
Primary:
Acceptable cold drag
Good hot performance/doesn't slip
Good clutch engagement "feel"
Drain plug is clean at change
Motor oil:
Minimal oil consumption between changes
Good cold and hot oil pressure across RPM range
Some zinc additive (I don't have cats)
Some detergent additive but minimal (I don't do high mileage change intervals)
Drain plug is clean at change
Dyed (not colorless) a plus
Some observations:
75w-90 feels good in transmission but 75w-140 feels better
85w-140 in transmission didn't feel good when cold
20w-50 MA2 feels good hot in primary but 10w-40 felt better cold
Would like to find a primary oil that gives the clutch more engagement feel without sacrificing compensator protection
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Yeah, oil threads are required by law here, some sort of quota for MC forums. ;D
Have used Syn3, Amsoil, & Valvoline for the motor over the past few years. Honestly have not seen any difference as to noise or performance or what the filter looks like if sliced in half.
Am running HD Formula A+ in the primary. Syn 3 in the transmission now, may change that out, maybe Redline.
You may get a lot of responses as to why this oil is better or that oil is crap. It's sort of like politics/religion. True believers, heretics, and many who are the Great Unwashed. (Wax & polish threads take care of that subject similarly). ;)
And how is that for the clutch drag?
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And how is that for the clutch drag?
No problems in my 2017. Have tried others, including Amsoil & Redline primary. Redline is good too. Syn3 in primary not as good, more noisy.
Long clutch pull on these newer bikes, less travel for friction area. A bit of getting used to at first, not really an issue just had to get accustomed to the clutch lever travel.
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According to the interweb, these are the viscosity specs for Formula+:
cSt @ 40°C: 168.04
cSt @ 100°C: 20.10
Similar to 20w-50.
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I've decided to try this for the transmission
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1L-Fully-Synthetic-75w90-75W-90-Gear-Differential-Oil-1-Litre-GL-4-GL-5/121675875264?hash=item1c547283c0:g:H84AAOSwL7VWnfna
This for the primary
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATF-SYNTHETIC-SP-3-III-WS-Automatic-Transmission-Oil-Fluid-5L/121852237241?hash=item1c5ef595b9:g:zMoAAOSw~otWg6RI
This for the motor
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5L-20W50-Fully-Synthetic-Motorcycle-Oil-4-Stroke-API-SM-20W-50-5-Litres-V-Twin/112610882188?hash=item1a3821b28c:g:4IYAAOSwsBtZ6iIr
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I've decided to try this for the transmission
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1L-Fully-Synthetic-75w90-75W-90-Gear-Differential-Oil-1-Litre-GL-4-GL-5/121675875264?hash=item1c547283c0:g:H84AAOSwL7VWnfna
I wouldn't use that gear oil in the transfer. GL5 rated gear lines should not be used where yellow metal may be present. The extreme pressure additives in GL5 eat the brass parts. Stick with a GL4 manual transmission oil or a motor oil.
Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
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Do the newer transmissions have brass parts?
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Do the newer transmissions have brass parts?
I don't know but why risk it?
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I wouldn't use that gear oil in the transfer. GL5 rated gear lines should not be used where yellow metal may be present. The extreme pressure additives in GL5 eat the brass parts. Stick with a GL4 manual transmission oil or a motor oil.
Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
there are also additives in the oil that prevent them from eating yellow metal. and since our trans are not 'extreme pressure', it will take for longer than the recommended 20k interval change to break down those additives.
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Royal Purple Max-Gear is GL5 rated but "yellow metal safe" is explicitly stated.
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Didn't think the transmissions had yellow metal in them :nixweiss: such as syncro gears
It does state that it's safe where there is yellow metal,..
This is a GL-4 and GL-5 Specification synthetic gear oil meaning it is safe for use where yellow metals are present. It contains a buffered sulphur EP additive which helps protect yellow metals found in some gear boxes.
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The problem with GL5 rated oils is the Extreme Pressure additives. They bond with the metal to form a sacrificial layer. That wears off rather than the metal wearing. With yellow metal the additive forms a layer harder than the base metal so it takes the base metal with it. Manual transmissions require straight GL4. Motor oil actually meets GL4 specs which is why HD recommended motor oil until they decided to market a transmission oil. I wouldn't risk using a GL4/5 or GL5 oil when there are plenty GL4 manual transmission oils available.
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The problem with GL5 rated oils is the Extreme Pressure additives. They bond with the metal to form a sacrificial layer. That wears off rather than the metal wearing. With yellow metal the additive forms a layer harder than the base metal so it takes the base metal with it. Manual transmissions require straight GL4. Motor oil actually meets GL4 specs which is why HD recommended motor oil until they decided to market a transmission oil. I wouldn't risk using a GL4/5 or GL5 oil when there are plenty GL4 manual transmission oils available.
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Point noted :2vrolijk_21:
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I haven't had any issues in the 5-speed gear boxes with GL5 gear oils and haven't identified any wetted brass components. No experience with the newer 6-speeds.
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I don't know but why risk it?
I'd suggest researching and confirming the materials of construction before disqualifying a whole group of excellent and readily available lubricants as a viable option. Many guys are using GL5 gear oils in these transmissions.
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Here's a pdf for the files,......6 speed transmission,.. don't believe there's any yellow metal
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12uHfkRV3H5LXkvHMoO-jZYejFff7BHlh/view?usp=drivesdk
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I like redline in Trans, B&M trick shift in primary and Redline or moble 1 in engine. A plus to this is color. B&M blue, Trans fluid pink, and engine oil brown.
I don't know if this is the best oil set up in the world, but I haven't had any oil related problems.
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I've read that others are running the B&M in the primary. How's the clutch feel on this stuff?
It's hard to find any reliable viscosity data on it but seems at least some claim it's simply Type F dyed blue.
Edit: close to Type F with maybe more friction modifiers:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/bmm-trick_shift.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFo4CS6t3YAhVN6VMKHbgWBs4QFjACegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw2sV68cazKATL7vWNR-Xp2g (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/bmm-trick_shift.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFo4CS6t3YAhVN6VMKHbgWBs4QFjACegQIEBAB&usg=AOvVaw2sV68cazKATL7vWNR-Xp2g)
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I've read that others are running the B&M in the primary. How's the clutch feel on this stuff?
It's hard to find any reliable viscosity data on it but seems at least some claim it's simply Type F dyed blue.
Based solely on a recommendation from an engineer at Barnett when installing one of their Scorpion clutches I use the old B&M Trick Shift. No issues with it positively or negatively. Just works. Plus I like having different colored fluids in each hole. Makes it easier to find a leak :drink: .
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The dyes are nice, I agree. Mfg recommendation is good stuff, take advantage of their R&D. Any difference between the Barnett friction materials and OE?
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Modern motor oils and gear lubes are pretty good and pretty consistent across brands, so all the "what's the best oil for my car/bike/etc" threads aren't doing much but providing entertainment for those who like to read them. Here's a much better question to ask about motor oils and gear lubes; who has had a confirmed mechanical failure caused by the lubricant and what was the product involved? It would be a very short thread btw.
JMHO - Jerry
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That's true to a certain extent. I always say even the cheapest clean oil is better than the best oil if not changed frequently enough. And I have seen a fair amount of issues, mainly in the automotive world (but also on Harleys), directly correlated to lack of fluid maintenance.
But then again isn't the point of a forum to discuss these types of things and post your opinions and experiences? I've already learned a few new details here and came away with some new ideas.
Not all oil threads need to be lowbrow brawls LOL. If not for forums, there is alot of good information that wouldn't be "common knowledge".
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Based solely on a recommendation from an engineer at Barnett when installing one of their Scorpion clutches I use the old B&M Trick Shift. No issues with it positively or negatively. Just works. Plus I like having different colored fluids in each hole. Makes it easier to find a leak :drink: .
B&M was recommended to me by Energy One Cutches. They are the manufacture of many clutch's in this industry. I haven't had any problems. I use it in stock clutch's, Barnett, Bandit, Primo, BDL......
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The dyes are nice, I agree. Mfg recommendation is good stuff, take advantage of their R&D. Any difference between the Barnett friction materials and OE?
Can't answer the questions on a materials properties analysis of the Barnett product. The question did force me to recall an interesting incident that happened at the same time I got their recommendation to use the B&M Trick Shift.
First time I'd ever used one of the Scorpion clutches. This was 10 years ago ( ish ). Had everything all done, got on the bike to start it up the first time and, wam bam thank you m'am, the engine fires and the bike lurches forward in the garage to a point within a foot of another bike there and a few other things I'd have preferred not to run over.
I was never sure whether I hit the kill switch or clamping front and rear brakes killed the engine. It all happened rather suddenly, abruptly and without common courtesy from the motorcycle. Just knew that somehow I'd managed to get it stopped and shut down before any damage actually occurred.
After a moment's reflection realized the clutch was totally locked up. That the slightest release of the clutch lever had sent me on the merry little 8-10 foot ride across a two car garage. Took it back down to inspect and had normal travel at the clutch. Was then I called Barnett and was told that with their then current clutch packs they were having an issue synthetic motor oils locking up the clutch packs. They'd be sending out a new set of clutches ASAP and, by the way, we suggest using B&M Trick Shift.
Relatively certain that somewhere in that process I pulled my shorts out of my ass too. :huepfenlol2:
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Yeoooowwwww. Never heard of anything like that before.
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Yeoooowwwww. Never heard of anything like that before.
Thinking about this after writing the previous post had to wonder if my recollection now was much different than what I'd thought at the time. Turns out it was really close to ten years ago (not bad memory for an old fart) and the recall now was pretty darn close to what I shared then. Was surprised I even found the old thread :drink: .
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=21262.0
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Yeah those are definitely situations that can destroy a good pair of undershorts. Nice job avoiding what sounds like could have been a really bad outcome.
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I find these oil discussion interesting. Being a new kid on the block don't have any experience to offer on the subject.
I've been doing some research on some of the mentioned oils such as ATF in primary - I came across B&M vs ATF+4 seems it's a love hate preference.
Because I'm intending to go with ATF synthetic to eliminate my clutch drag but I was being considered about the compensator having adequate lubrication. Some have said by using ATF the compensator has been sacrificed then I found that buy adding Lubegard Platinum Automatic Transmission ATF Fluid Protectant it seems it'll give the compensator the lubrication protection required.
A short part of the write up on Lubegard
For use with any specified ATF recommended by the car manufacturer, such as OEM types and DEXRON®/MERCON® ATF’s.
(Except Ford Type F ATF or CVT applications)
Enhances DEXRON® III, VI/MERCON® ATF’s to perform like MERCON® V ATF
Enhances DEXRON® III, VI/MERCON® , V ATF to perform like a highly friction modified ATF,
Prevents overheating
Dramatically reduces friction & wear on metal parts and internal components
Will not alter the crucial sulfur balance in your transmission fluid
Will not harm yellow metals
Inhibits fluid oxidation and foaming
Contains patented Synogol TMS Technology a synthetic molecule that tightens the shift cycle without losing the friction modification at lockup, which eliminates shudder
Eliminates torque converter shudders
Ensures proper shifts
Frees stuck valves & keeps them free
Extends fluid change intervals
Protects & restores seals for optimum performance
Conditions & restores seals and o-ring
I'm trying to make my bike easier to ride smoother shifting easier to push backwards (not fighting clutch drag) without popping into"N" first.
Once I've changed over to the oils I'm going to use then I'll have some input. Till then I'm a greenhorn.
So for for me Yes these discussions along with all others are a great help.
What I can say, I've been using this oil in all three holes and it works well in the motor
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Motul-7100-4T-20W-50-Motorcycle-Engine-Oil-Fully-Synthetic-20W50-4-Litres-4L/172989225333?epid=1408013326&hash=item2846f61975:g:fbwAAMXQVERS-lYK
This is the dip two days ago at 3k oil consumption is down compared to HD's oil I was using and it's cleaner
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I'll be interested in hearing how your new primary potion performs.
That Motul engine oil is good.
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Here's an updated chart for those interested in this type of data:
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Maybe sulfer is the smell I get when the bike is really hot. I use Amsoil for oil, Redline MTL for primary and Redline shockproof for tranny. I tried ATF in the primary as suggested by Rivera and found it a little noisy and did nothing for clutch drag and finding Neutral.
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I've found I like the clutch feel best using the MA2 spec synthetic motor oils. I bounce between 10w-40 and 20w-50 depending on what is available and cheapest when I need it. Just got a case of the 10w-50 and will use this for the first time next change. Viscosity data would suggest a good oil, for my criteria anyway.
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Maybe sulfer is the smell I get when the bike is really hot. I use Amsoil for oil, Redline MTL for primary and Redline shockproof for tranny. I tried ATF in the primary as suggested by Rivera and found it a little noisy and did nothing for clutch drag and finding Neutral.
I'm using the ATF in the primary but I'm also adding 1 1/2 oz of ATF Lubeguard platinum high performance additive to it as well. For me I find shifted and Neutral a lot better.
The additive would be playing a role with it.
I forgot to mention, I'm sure the Hayden M6 tensioner is playing a role with it all as well.