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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: USNCVO on May 08, 2018, 12:46:09 PM
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So a week ago yesterday, I had my dealer install new exhaust and tune with the warranty approved tuner. They did the 1000 mile service that day as well. Saturday the bike started smoking intermittently. I took it to the dealer and it is scheduled for a leak down test and bore scope inspection tomorrow. They said it was ok to ride. I did 350 miles on Sunday with a couple of hard pulls against a 117 built '16CVO. Sadly he won. At any rate after the third run we rode about 2 miles then got off on a off ramp. As we pulled onto the city street, my bike fell on it's face. It was running but no power. Rode about 1/4 of a mile to the meet up spot and shut it down. It wasn't running hot or anything. We were there about 20 minutes. Fired the bike back up and it has run fine since. The people that were riding behind me during the day said that it would smoke on occasion but not bad. I kept the oil checked throughout the day and there wasn't any noticeable loss. Any ideas or ideas as to what in the hell might be going on?
R/Don
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Sounds like it's sumping.
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I've read about sumping but everything I've read says that it shouldn't happen to the 2018 M8s. So here is the question and I can't seem to find the answer. If it is sumping, what is the possible damage to the engine specifically. Can it be repaired or do they have to put an new engine in it?
R/Don
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I've read about sumping but everything I've read says that it shouldn't happen to the 2018 M8s. So here is the question and I can't seem to find the answer. If it is sumping, what is the possible damage to the engine specifically. Can it be repaired or do they have to put an new engine in it?
R/Don
ALL M8 engines are included in the latest version of SB1450. That includes 2017 & 2018. If a sumping engine is caught earlier, there may be no damage. But if you’re just running along on a highway, you may not realize the engine is fully sumped until the damage has begun and its too late
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I thought I read somewhere that the cutoff date for the old pumps was October 2017, bikes after that had the newer pump. But I think I also read that the new pumps were better but not great and there’s an even newer pump available. Sadly I don’t have part numbers or any firm info - just what I’ve read on here and other sites.
Maybe someone who knows can chime in.
FWIW, I just called HD and my 2018 had a September 19 2017 build date, so...old pump.
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I thought I read somewhere that the cutoff date for the old pumps was October 2017, bikes after that had the newer pump. But I think I also read that the new pumps were better but not great and there’s an even newer pump available. Sadly I don’t have part numbers or any firm info - just what I’ve read on here and other sites.
Maybe someone who knows can chime in.
FWIW, I just called HD and my 2018 had a September 19 2017 build date, so...old pump.
Just do a search for SB1450 (I’ve posted it numerous times). It has all the pump numbers. There have been multiple sumping cases even with the latest oil pump.
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Just talked to my service adviser, we'll find out tomorrow whether or not we are dealing with a sumping issue. I'll let you guys know. I have a copy of SB1450, thanks to whoever posted the link, that I am taking with me tomorrow. I have spent well over $20k in this service department and the service manager assures me he will get this straightened out.
Don
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Just talked to my service adviser, we'll find out tomorrow whether or not we are dealing with a sumping issue. I'll let you guys know. I have a copy of SB1450, thanks to whoever posted the link, that I am taking with me tomorrow. I have spent well over $20k in this service department and the service manager assures me he will get this straightened out.
Don
Check to make sure the version of SB1450 is from November 15, 2017. There are 6 earlier versions and you’ll want to make sure you have the latest version in your conversion with the dealer.
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Check to make sure the version of SB1450 is from November 15, 2017. There are 6 earlier versions and you’ll want to make sure you have the latest version in your conversion with the dealer.
Yes sir it is ... thanks for looking out... I'm beginning to wonder if I should have kept my '15 CVO Limited. :nervous:
R/Don
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What exhaust and what tuner?
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What exhaust and what tuner?
RC Components full ceramic coated exhaust and SE PRO Street Tuner.
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Got the news... it sumped a little bit and have some scoring on the rear cylinder.... It will go into the shop for new jugs and pistons in a couple of weeks... I'm going to make sure they put the newest oil pump available in it while they have it torn down.
R/Don
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Is the dealer eating the repair or is Harley authorizing the repair? Reason I'm asking is Harley has been pretty thorough in instructing dealers to tear down engines when they suspect sumping to determine the extent of the damage.
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Is the dealer eating the repair or is Harley authorizing the repair? Reason I'm asking is Harley has been pretty thorough in instructing dealers to tear down engines when they suspect sumping to determine the extent of the damage.
They are saying that warranty is going to pay for it so I'm not sure. It is going in on the 21st and they will have it until it is done. They saw some scoring with a bore scope.
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Wouldn't you think that the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration would recognize this as a very serious hazard, a vehicle that unexpectedly loses power , can't maintain highway speed, overheats......? Maybe force H.D. to recall these machines for a proper fix ? Just sayin.
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Wouldn't you think that the National Highway Transportation and Safety Administration would recognize this as a very serious hazard, a vehicle that unexpectedly loses power , can't maintain highway speed, overheats......? Maybe force H.D. to recall these machines for a proper fix ? Just sayin.
HD would fight that tooth and nail, pull every political string they could to keep that from happening. Having to recall every M8 may be a financial death blow. There's doubt among many that the oil pump is the true problem.
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HD would fight that tooth and nail, pull every political string they could to keep that from happening. Having to recall every M8 may be a financial death blow. There's doubt among many that the oil pump is the true problem.
You can add me to that list.
Steve@fullsac.com
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We will see what happens with this one...
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You can add me to that list.
Steve@fullsac.com
then what else is it?
the cases, and the breathers by chance?
also will the 2018 CVO crankcase assembly bolt into the 2017 CVO? will the 2018 cylinders work on a 2017 case being they are larger bore?
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then what else is it?
the cases, and the breathers by chance?
also will the 2018 CVO crankcase assembly bolt into the 2017 CVO? will the 2018 cylinders work on a 2017 case being they are larger bore?
Cases for 2017 and 2018 both share the same part number. 24400187. Differences in cases aren't between 17 and 18 but (obviously) between M8 and TC. This includes significant differences in things as simple as hole locations and other parts of the scavenge system.
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HD would fight that tooth and nail, pull every political string they could to keep that from happening. Having to recall every M8 may be a financial death blow. There's doubt among many that the oil pump is the true problem.
it is a financial death blow to the consumers too. a huge deal for most today. the money is not out there as it was many years ago.
a sad situation ..
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Is anyone familiar with Feuling part # 7097 race series oil pump system. Just ordered one today for the sumping issue. These guys knew the problem before I described it and said they have the fix. Not cheap at $1199 but a lot cheaper thank regular breakdowns and Harley not having an oil pump remedy. Back ordered for 2 weeks, I’ll let everyone know if it fixes our pump issue once I get the bike back in a few weeks. Thoughts?
http://www.feulingparts.com/products...r%20Drive/7097
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Cases for 2017 and 2018 both share the same part number. 24400187. Differences in cases aren't between 17 and 18 but (obviously) between M8 and TC. This includes significant differences in things as simple as hole locations and other parts of the scavenge system.
was a genteleman named Heatwave I believe, says he got the 19 cases. would like to know that part#. was talking to a couple different dealers and none could offer any numbers than what most seem to know about. anyone else have a clue on the subject,'
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RC Components full ceramic coated exhaust and SE PRO Street Tuner.
I have seen on other boards that changing out any part would void the warranty. Obviously you were able to get yours fixed but my question is did you have to fight to get it done or was it easy? I too would like to change out my head pipe but I want to make sure I won't have any issues.
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I have seen on other boards that changing out any part would void the warranty. Obviously you were able to get yours fixed but my question is did you have to fight to get it done or was it easy? I too would like to change out my head pipe but I want to make sure I won't have any issues.
Also curious about that.
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Ok.. here's what they found. When MoCo assembled my bike they put all the splits on the rings on the rear cylinder in a line causing the smoking issue. No damage to the engine. They are going to hone both cylinders, replace all the valve seals just because they had to pull the heads and replace all the rings. No evidence of sumping.
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Ok.. here's what they found. When MoCo assembled my bike they put all the splits on the rings on the rear cylinder in a line causing the smoking issue. No damage to the engine. They are going to hone both cylinders, replace all the valve seals just because they had to pull the heads and replace all the rings. No evidence of sumping.
If that's what the dealer or factory rep is telling you now how do you know what to trust when previously you'd already been told something entirely different:
Got the news... it sumped a little bit and have some scoring on the rear cylinder.... It will go into the shop for new jugs and pistons in a couple of weeks... I'm going to make sure they put the newest oil pump available in it while they have it torn down.
R/Don
A factory assembled engine with all the rings lined up (even for the Harley factory) is an almost unthinkable level of incompetence. Did you get to see the piston as or after the cylinder was lifted?
The dealership doing the work is now giving rationale to do a repair that will take less of their time and money, replace fewer partrs, and allow them to not go nearly as deep in to the engine. Given what's become known and the significantly unlikely incidence of rings assembled as described that would worry me a bit. At least a bit.
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Is anyone familiar with Feuling part # 7097 race series oil pump system. Just ordered one today for the sumping issue. These guys knew the problem before I described it and said they have the fix. Not cheap at $1199 but a lot cheaper thank regular breakdowns and Harley not having an oil pump remedy. Back ordered for 2 weeks, I’ll let everyone know if it fixes our pump issue once I get the bike back in a few weeks. Thoughts?
http://www.feulingparts.com/products...r%20Drive/7097
This has come up in another conversation; but no way I'd do what you're doing now. It's not a sure thing, and I'm not comfortable at all, with the "certainty" that the problem several are facing is isolated to the pump. If you start installing parts from the aftermarket you are, however, giving Mother Harley every bit of latitude she will need to deny any future warranty claim in the engine you will ever have. Doing this at a time when this engine is still so suspect would worry me.
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I was there during the entire disassembly. I asked about the cylinder wall scoring original diag. The svc manager said he believes it was a reflection from the light on the bore scope. I personally inspected the cylinder walls right after disassembly and they look perfect. I saw the piston come out and the rings were indeed lined up. This should be the end of the issues for me, cross your fingers.
R/Don
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I was there during the entire disassembly. I asked about the cylinder wall scoring original diag. The svc manager said he believes it was a reflection from the light on the bore scope. I personally inspected the cylinder walls right after disassembly and they look perfect. I saw the piston come out and the rings were indeed lined up. This should be the end of the issues for me, cross your fingers.
R/Don
Well...... :huepfenlol2:
ok.
Definitely hoping you're out of the woods and they have you riding again soon. Sapulpa isn't far away from Joplin (where I am) or from Eureka Springs. A bunch of us will be in Eureka Springs the week of June 4. If you're not already on the list for Eureka Springs and if the shop has you running again think about coming over and meeting some of the gang.
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I grew up in NWA and have run those roads on sport bikes for years. I will try to make it over. My work schedule is a bit busy this time of year. Going to Eureka is almost worth leaving the XVO home and bringing the Busa. Lol
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I grew up in NWA and have run those roads on sport bikes for years. I will try to make it over. My work schedule is a bit busy this time of year. Going to Eureka is almost worth leaving the XVO home and bringing the Busa. Lol
Our Gatherings tend to be pretty secular affairs. No requirement to partake of the Harley sacrament to attend. So, hell yeah, bring the Busa!
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Link below is to the thread on the Gathering at Eureka Springs:
https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=113067.0