Topic: Compensator-My Story might help you (Read 14547 times)

Cat Eye · « **on:** June 29, 2016, 07:08:37 AM »

2015 SESG
At 10k I started to notice a familiar knock from the primary side.

Took it to dealer for a listen and got the line that " Sounds normal and that some just do this."

So I let my bike idle until it went into the EITMS(turns off real cylinder for cooling at idle) This causes the backlash in the compensator to knock with extreme prejudice.

The service manager then agreed that there was a problem but didn't think it was the compensator because of my low mileage and that they have not seen issues with SE Compensator.

He offer to put it on the lift right then and take a look if I could leave it.....but since I had a trip planned in 10 day, I asked him what the availability was for a new Compensator.

So he checked...

NO STOCK and on BACK ORDER until JULY 12th

So he started to check with other dealers and it appears that since this SE Comp as been out for a few years now and racking up some miles they are failing and needing replaced.

This happened around June 10th....I told them to find a compensator and that I would bring my bike in after my trip and once they have the parts.

They located one in Virginia....and my bike is now on the lift get another bullet proof compensator.

In conclusion:

-If you think your comp is going, let your bike idle until it goes into EITMS mode...if the knocking gets worst and is consistent. Good bet the comp is backlashing

-Before you let them open up your primary, have them check the availability of the compensator.....or your bike might be on the lift for a few weeks or more.

-Keep you EITMS off. This is just my option...idling this engine on one cylinder just doesn't seem normal and shakes the hell out of the bike.

Hope this helps and looking forward to the WV GTG

Cat

Royalroadie · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2016, 09:18:57 AM »

I am also waiting for a replacement comp to come in.

Joel · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2016, 09:44:05 AM »

Never did like the way any of my previous bike ran when the rear cylinder shuts down. I''ll be rechecking to be sure it is deactivated.

bigchuck · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2016, 10:16:50 AM »

Leaving EITMS in Pennsylvania is different than doing it in the deep south. Good luck with your repairs.

RonandJanet · « **Reply #4 on:** June 29, 2016, 01:27:03 PM »

This is disappointing news! My previous bike had that problem as well and I thought I was leaving it behind. I do have the EITMS on since it is always so hot and I figured it would keep the rear cylinder in better shape. I don't like that you can't just go when you need to. I have to rev it before going since it takes a second to get the rear cylinder power up. It is almost a little dangerous but I am used to it now.

sadunbar · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2016, 03:07:57 PM »

After all these years and all the redesigns, how can there be a dealership on the planet that has not seen compensator issues??? You're dealer lacks credibility...

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #6 on:** June 29, 2016, 03:42:32 PM »

Quote from: Cat Eye on June 29, 2016, 07:08:37 AM

2015 SESG
At 10k I started to notice a familiar knock from the primary side.

Took it to dealer for a listen and got the line that " Sounds normal and that some just do this."

So I let my bike idle until it went into the EITMS(turns off real cylinder for cooling at idle) This causes the backlash in the compensator to knock with extreme prejudice.

The service manager then agreed that there was a problem but didn't think it was the compensator because of my low mileage and that they have not seen issues with SE Compensator.

He offer to put it on the lift right then and take a look if I could leave it.....but since I had a trip planned in 10 day, I asked him what the availability was for a new Compensator.

So he checked...

NO STOCK and on BACK ORDER until JULY 12th

So he started to check with other dealers and it appears that since this SE Comp as been out for a few years now and racking up some miles they are failing and needing replaced.

This happened around June 10th....I told them to find a compensator and that I would bring my bike in after my trip and once they have the parts.

They located one in Virginia....and my bike is now on the lift get another bullet proof compensator.

In conclusion:

-If you think your comp is going, let your bike idle until it goes into EITMS mode...if the knocking gets worst and is consistent. Good bet the comp is backlashing

-Before you let them open up your primary, have them check the availability of the compensator.....or your bike might be on the lift for a few weeks or more.

-Keep you EITMS off. This is just my option...idling this engine on one cylinder just doesn't seem normal and shakes the hell out of the bike.

Hope this helps and looking forward to the WV GTG

Cat

The single firing pulse of EMITS makes me cringe when i think of the front connecting rod bearings...

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #7 on:** June 29, 2016, 08:36:20 PM »

Turned my ETMS off they day I bought the bike. I have it in 100 degree plus weather. Still will not turn it on. Feels like it is trying to tear motor apart, can't be good for it.

dano · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2016, 05:56:17 AM »

How do you turn the ETMS off?

grc · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2016, 08:46:10 AM »

Quote from: dano on June 30, 2016, 05:56:17 AM

How do you turn the ETMS off?

It's a simple procedure anyone can perform. If you have the owner's manual for the bike the procedure is detailed in the manual. Basically it involves rotating the throttle grip forward from the idle position to toggle it off or on. Early versions required the ignition to be on and the engine off, later models work with the engine on or off. Rather than mislead you based on my memory, I'd suggest digging out the manual. BTW, it's called EITMS, for Engine Idle Temperature Management System.

Jerry

grc · « **Reply #10 on:** June 30, 2016, 12:52:18 PM »

This is the procedure for 2008 to 2013 models. Rushedmore bikes can also do it on the infotainment screen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enable/Disable EITMS

1. Turn the ignition ON. With the bike at idle and not moving (the bike may be running or not running):

2. Push the throttle to roll-off position and hold.

3. After approximately 3 seconds, the cruise indicator will flash either red (disabled) or green (enabled).

4. Repeat procedure to change.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jerry

Cat Eye · « **Reply #11 on:** June 30, 2016, 01:18:58 PM »

Quote from: sadunbar on June 29, 2016, 03:07:57 PM

After all these years and all the redesigns, how can there be a dealership on the planet that has not seen compensator issues??? You're dealer lacks credibility...

They were aware on the compensator issues but was under the impression (hoping) that the SE Compensator had corrected the problem.

It has taken a few years for the fleet of bikes with this SE compensator to log some miles to produce imperial data to determine whether this is true or not.

For me this will be my last HD comp unless they redesign again.....but who really knows if the Baker Compensator will be any better. Aftermarket suppliers don't get the exposure to develope any trends like HD does.

grc · « **Reply #12 on:** June 30, 2016, 01:39:20 PM »

Quote from: Cat Eye on June 30, 2016, 01:18:58 PM

They were aware on the compensator issues but was under the impression (hoping) that the SE Compensator had corrected the problem.

...

I assume you mean the latest revision to the SE compensator (I've lost track of how many revisions they've had since 2008) where they added ribbing to the outer primary cover to direct oil to the center of the compensator. Without having real statistics from actual repair data, all we can do is go by the reports from other owners of the affected models. Not exactly scientific. All I can say is that just going by posts online since Harley started installing that latest revision it "seems" as though I'm reading fewer reports of low mileage failures. Note I didn't say no failures, just fewer. The design still sucks IMHO, but it just sucks a little less when the idiots realize they need to provide lubrication to high friction areas of the device.

I still find it strange that the old cheap compensator used forever on the 5 speed trans bikes often outlasted most of the other parts in the primary, but the new modern POS was lucky to last a year. Just one more bit of proof that Harley needs to hire some competent engineers, or just farm everything out to qualified companies like they did with the Revolution engine. Oh, and actually testing the brilliant design before throwing it in thousands of bikes might not be a bad idea either. These days Harley customers appear to be the only ones actually testing anything.

Jerry

MadCVORG · « **Reply #13 on:** June 30, 2016, 01:53:49 PM »

These days Harley customers appear to be the only ones actually testing anything.

You're not far off the mark..........using real-life conditions, vs. lab testing, provides a manufacturer with loads of valuable data. And much cheaper than hiring in-house test engineers.

sadunbar · « **Reply #14 on:** June 30, 2016, 02:46:29 PM »

Quote from: Cat Eye on June 30, 2016, 01:18:58 PM

They were aware on the compensator issues but was under the impression (hoping) that the SE Compensator had corrected the problem.

It has taken a few years for the fleet of bikes with this SE compensator to log some miles to produce imperial data to determine whether this is true or not.

For me this will be my last HD comp unless they redesign again.....but who really knows if the Baker Compensator will be any better. Aftermarket suppliers don't get the exposure to develope any trends like HD does.

If that's true, then they are badly misinformed and completely out of touch with the product they sell. The SE compensator became available to replace the original stock compensator in 2008 - 8 years ago. It has since been altered and redesigned at least 3 times (maybe 4, I've lost count) since then, due to continuous premature failures. So if they were really "under the impression (hoping) that the SE Compensator had corrected the problem" then they are truly not paying attention.

RonandJanet · « **Reply #15 on:** June 30, 2016, 04:59:01 PM »

On my other bike the SE Compensator was the fix for the stock version. On this bike it came with the SE compensator so I should not have a problem. That is what I was thinking however that may be wrong. So far (knock on wood) I have had no problems yet which means it is better than the one I had before.

So the recommendation is to keep the EITMS firing the rear cylinder?
I thought it was supposed to keep the engine cooler which would make it last longer.
I don't like it on so maybe I will turn it off for the ride home.

TNCarters · « **Reply #16 on:** June 30, 2016, 11:14:57 PM »

My EITMS has been off since taking delivery last summer. This twin cooled bike stays a bit cooler than my 2011 Limited did and don't feel its getting anywhere near hot enough to damage the engine. Also I do not like the shake and momentary time to restart when the cylinder shuts down. I think it was mentioned but the Info screen clearly shows if the EITMS is on/off or activated and it turns on and off just like the pre Rushmore bikes.

Jock · « **Reply #17 on:** July 01, 2016, 06:03:21 AM »

One the 2011 I had two of them replaced while I owned it, the bike had ~ 70k miles on it when I let it go.

Fast forward, I just picked up my 2015 ride that has 29k miles on it and the compensator was replaced.

Happy 4th of July!

grc · « **Reply #18 on:** July 01, 2016, 08:45:01 AM »

Quote from: RonandJanet on June 30, 2016, 04:59:01 PM

On my other bike the SE Compensator was the fix for the stock version. On this bike it came with the SE compensator so I should not have a problem. That is what I was thinking however that may be wrong. So far (knock on wood) I have had no problems yet which means it is better than the one I had before.

So the recommendation is to keep the EITMS firing the rear cylinder?
I thought it was supposed to keep the engine cooler which would make it last longer.
I don't like it on so maybe I will turn it off for the ride home.

The original design compensator for the Cruise Drive six speed bikes was a complete and total joke. Harley came up with the SE version almost immediately (it's in the 2008 SE catalog) but did not install it in production. Another case of them profiting from their own design and quality failures btw. Finally in 2010 they made it standard in the CVO only, and I believe they extended it to all Big Twins in 2011or 2012.

The SE compensator suffered failures from the beginning, such that they made several design revisions in the first few years. The last revision I'm aware of occurred in 2014 when they added a plastic tray/diverter to the kit that was epoxied into the outer primary cover to catch oil and drip it into the center of the compensator. Production bikes used a different outer primary cover with cast in ribs to perform the same function. This last version is the one that some people seem to think is the one that finally solved the biggest problem with the compensator. As I mentioned earlier, if we just go by the number of posts around here on compensator failures it does appear the failure rate has dropped on the 2014 and later models, but that is just an observation and not a proven fact. I've read several reports of failures on 2014 and 2015 bikes, just not as many as we used to see. So do I believe the problem is really fixed? No I don't. The additional lubrication has to help extend the life of the parts, but the design is still subject to a lot of wear. All anyone has to do to see what I'm talking about is to look at the drain plug magnet and the drained primary fluid when they change the lubricant. I do not believe the current compensator design will ever be as reliable as the old version on the five speed bikes. Kind of like lifters, they will be maintenance items.

JMHO - Jerry

RonandJanet · « **Reply #19 on:** July 01, 2016, 12:08:09 PM »

That makes sense my last one was 2010 and now I have the 2014.

The ride home with the rear cylinder was with 100 degrees. I know this isn't possible but I think was actually cooler. probably just my mind.

Like I had posted earlier I didn't like the fact that I had to get the rear cylinder engaged to take off. I had done this to help the engine last longer but since it seems that may not be the case I will go with disengaged for now.

There was post about extra stress on the front cylinder when the rear was off. How can having the rear cylinder not firing put stress on the front cylinder. I could see this maybe when starting but once the crank is spinning I don't understand how this is more stress.

grc · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2016, 01:44:18 PM »

Actually the rear cylinder shutdown strategy wasn't to protect the engine, it was designed to reduce the heat that customers were screaming about to Harley. Previous versions of EITMS used a totally different strategy, namely first reducing idle speed (fewer combustion events equals less heat), then adding a little extra fuel and advancing timing 10°, and if temps still climbed the engine management system would go into what was called skip fire mode. That basically caused both cylinders to alternate skipping a combustion event by turning the injectors off at random 2 out of every 8 cycles (think of it as a misfire). That system was designed to protect the engine, and the last step didn't occur until the engine temperature exceeded 329°F. In contrast, the 2008 and later EITMS shuts down the rear cylinder spark and fuel at 287°F, turning it into an air pump that just pumps air through the head and exhaust to cool them.

If you were to remove the primary cover and watch the compensator and primary chain when the engine was only running on the front cylinder, you would see why people claim it's hard on the engine. Not as hard as dropping the clutch at 6000 rpm from a dead stop perhaps, but still not ideal.

If your desire is to protect the engine, versus just keeping your right leg and thigh cooler, a much better approach would be to install a set of fans blowing directly on the cylinder heads IMHO.

Jerry

Stansuski · « **Reply #21 on:** July 06, 2016, 09:09:40 PM »

As I read this my 2015 CVO ROADGLIDE sounds like a bucket of marbles as I release the clutch when starting off slowly and now I read this, here we go again, mileage today is only 2500 miles.
Stan

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2016, 01:44:20 PM »

I have a 2008 FLHTCUSE3 and I am on my 5th compensator having 48,000 on the clock. My fifth is already rattling after 7,000 miles. It is the very latest version and is no better then the other four. If I twist the throttle at idle, it rattles and always rattles with I turn the ignition off. Anyone make a good design?

Texas 103 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2016, 07:21:29 PM »

Quote from: mcdonaldroadcapt on July 08, 2016, 01:44:20 PM

I have a 2008 FLHTCUSE3 and I am on my 5th compensator having 48,000 on the clock. My fifth is already rattling after 7,000 miles. It is the very latest version and is no better then the other four. If I twist the throttle at idle, it rattles and always rattles with I turn the ignition off. Anyone make a good design?

Installed the Compensaver from Steve... ..Problem solved , just changed primary oil after 10 K ..VERY FEW small minor cuttings on the plug.Nothing like it used to be. Nice and quiet, that was 25,000 miles ago. Don;t have a dog in the fight...product just works
!..

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #24 on:** July 14, 2016, 06:20:20 AM »

Thanks for input. Will look into compensaver.

LMH · « **Reply #25 on:** July 15, 2016, 07:39:35 PM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on June 29, 2016, 08:36:20 PM

Turned my ETMS off they day I bought the bike. I have it in 100 degree plus weather. Still will not turn it on. Feels like it is trying to tear motor apart, can't be good for it.

X2. My dealer suggested it after i complained about the rattling noise from the primary. Wasn't related but he recommended not activating it as it wasn't needed.

stevep1794 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2016, 08:48:52 PM »

My 16 has knocked since the day I got it... Dealer changed the tentioner 2 times in under 500 miles.. cant seem to fix it. I will see if they will change the compensator. just had 1k service and still got the noise. It only knocks at idle...EITMS was turned back on from the service and I haven't turned it off as of yet.

Texas 103 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 25, 2016, 07:27:32 AM »

Quote from: stevep1794 on July 15, 2016, 08:48:52 PM

My 16 has knocked since the day I got it... Dealer changed the tentioner 2 times in under 500 miles.. cant seem to fix it. I will see if they will change the compensator. just had 1k service and still got the noise. It only knocks at idle...EITMS was turned back on from the service and I haven't turned it off as of yet.

My '16 same way, the compensaver replaces the "axial bearing " HD went to that causes the problem. Compensaver has a washer that replaces it, rattle gone. May not help on an old compensator with lots of miles..

trippy · « **Reply #28 on:** October 27, 2016, 09:12:11 AM »

X3 with the compensaver, not only a very good product that does work to fully lubricate the compensator but with the fibre washer in place of the radial bearing that HD used is much quieter, also great customer support.

I believe the reason HD went with the addition of the oil tray on the outer primary is because the guys who worked on the design of the "compensaver" went to HD with there design and were dismissed out of hand, only for HD to partly copy there design!

Ride safe.

remington007 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 27, 2016, 11:14:30 AM »

There is a procedure to shim the stack hight of the spring pack. Harley sells shims for that. I have done a few and it does quiet it down.

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #30 on:** October 27, 2016, 04:41:14 PM »

My old comp came with two shims. Wonder if I could apply them to the latest version in my bike that rattles just off idle.

RayG · « **Reply #31 on:** October 27, 2016, 09:43:35 PM »

You can use the shims if you keep everything in very close alignment. It's extremely important to stay within the tolerances from one sprocket to another so everything lines up and wears evenly. Seeing as I have experienced more than my share of compensator replacements I tend to read everything I can on the subject. While I think the MOCO dropped the ball big time I tend to think that we are seeing an increase due to a number of reasons. I have to think some are just slapped in there without taking measurements and hoping for the best. I also think that some are led to believe that to have the best clutch performance some tend to just drop a quart of ATF fluid that the clutch loves but slowly robs the compensator of life by reducing much
needed lubrication. It's a win - loose situation for right now. Anything that you can do to increase the lubrication to the compensator will increase it's life, seems simple but we know better!

I'm on lucky number 7 compensator

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #32 on:** October 28, 2016, 08:09:46 AM »

Thanks for info. I am on number four. It rattled the day I put it in. Fortunately it only rattles just off idle and quits, unlike the one before that rattled at road speeds which drove me crazy.

guppytrash · « **Reply #33 on:** October 29, 2016, 02:42:20 PM »

Does anyone know if it is going to be same ol' story with the new M8.
Same compensator?

Texas 103 · « **Reply #34 on:** October 30, 2016, 07:19:10 AM »

Quote from: mcdonaldroadcapt on October 28, 2016, 08:09:46 AM

Thanks for info. I am on number four. It rattled the day I put it in. Fortunately it only rattles just off idle and quits, unlike the one before that rattled at road speeds which drove me crazy.

Had that same issue, Going to slip my compensaver in . Took it off the '11 before I traded it.Had the same issue with the '11. New compensator, rattled to beat hell at idle, compensaver installed, nice and quiet. Didn;t pay this kind of money to hear a rattle at idle, , Like the redline primary fluid acts like ATF and has teh GL-5 high pressure additive to protect the compensator..now that'it's getting oil...

LMH · « **Reply #35 on:** November 18, 2016, 07:53:05 AM »

My bike been knocking like that since almost day 1. Dealer turned off the EITMS fist time I went back. Still sounds like a can of nuts and bolts going down the road. Still doing it 5000 miles later. Now I have the rear tire sensor alerting me to a low tire pressure every other day . Dealer and factory solution , "turn off the sensor". I'm getting pretty tired of "turning off" all the different systems that i paid big dollars for on this 40K bike.
I guess it's part of the new business model. Load up a pretty bike with crap that doesn't work and then when it fails turn it off and thank the "customer" for there business and send them on there way.

grc · « **Reply #36 on:** November 18, 2016, 09:38:01 AM »

If you find that the replacement still has the same noise issues as the old one, make sure the compensator bolt is actually tight. One of our members mentioned a problem he had that eventually was traced to a buildup of old thread locker compound in the threads of the output shaft of the crank. If the bolt reaches torque prematurely due to the extra friction created by that dried up thread locker, you won't have the correct clamping pressure. So make certain ALL the old thread locker material is removed from the output shaft and bolt before reinstalling the bolt with fresh thread locker ( or a new bolt).

Jerry

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #37 on:** November 18, 2016, 11:27:35 AM »

Did all of the above but still rattles just off idle with initial throttle.

RayG · « **Reply #38 on:** November 18, 2016, 01:12:19 PM »

Jerry is right on the thread locker build up, Baker has the instructions highlighted to send a bottom tap to make sure it is very clean. The more compensators that have been installed or removed for other work the higher the likelihood of having a build up which may prevent it from seating properly. I just returned my badly worn out Baker compensator this morning for a replacement. It almost went 1000 miles. I will have a new OEM replacement to install with the GMR Compensaver. I know people may not believe me but I just removed #7. Put in a lot of parts to get to 90,000 miles.

The only solution I see is additional lubrication. Maybe there is a coating that would help but I think it would wear off from the pounding.

Good Luck

secvoboy80 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 04, 2017, 05:52:40 AM »

This whole compensator stuff is givin me a hard time. Mines a 2007 CVO with aprox 50t miles on it. But I bought my bike 2nd hand and I did approx 10t miles. I was chasing the Baker, but also baker told me that they are not quite sure how many miles the compensator works on the 110. I'm really thinking of a compensator eliminator but in combination of the Baker Attitude Chain Tensioner. I think that'll be the best call... What's your opinion about a compensator eliminator?

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #40 on:** August 04, 2017, 06:38:14 AM »

I am told that it could be very destructive to the 110 engine. I have 52,000 on my 2008 and on my fourth comp into about 4,000 miles. So far, just rattles when cold on take off and has since I installed. Last one rattled at highway speeds which drove me crazy. I did clean threads each time. Don't know why there is not a permanent fix.

dayne66 · « **Reply #41 on:** June 16, 2018, 01:59:20 PM »

Have a "newest" S/E compensator on order to replace when I get home from work next shift. Bike will be on the lift table waiting for the install. I will need to fab up a 'stop stick'.....what size is the big nut?

Any other 'odd' tool required?

mcdonaldroadcapt · « **Reply #42 on:** June 16, 2018, 03:48:16 PM »

Quote from: dayne66 on June 16, 2018, 01:59:20 PM

Have a "newest" S/E compensator on order to replace when I get home from work next shift. Bike will be on the lift table waiting for the install. I will need to fab up a 'stop stick'.....what size is the big nut?

Any other 'odd' tool required?

According as to what compensator you have in the bike now. Earlier ones needed a 13/16 socket and the later ones need a T-70. Not hard just take your time. Stop stick needs to be 6" long tapered on flat side to fit between the teeth. Have fun.

dayne66 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 16, 2018, 05:54:36 PM »

Instead of the S/E ...I'm going with the BDL compensator and Hayden tensioner.....and gonna have my local, highly recommended (and I have some good experience with them also) Indy shop.

Done some reading ...and at the recommendation from Peter at Bayview Cycle....he has this combo in his bike......and everything inside the primary cover is getting a good lookin' at and replaced as needed so we won't have to go back in there for a long while!

Was gonna do it myself....but....my work schedule makes it so I don't want to waste sunny summer days wrenching.....and I don't feel comfortable checking bearings.

And...I'm tired of being an unpaid (worse than unpaid....expensive) guinea pig / tester for Harley. .....or having to upgrade parts on a top-of-the-line motorcycle. I have resolved to ALWAYS seek an un-Harley solution to as much as possible!

http://beltdrives.com/products/chain-drive-compensators

https://www.haydensm6.com/m6_bt07.htm

fos41 · « **Reply #44 on:** June 19, 2018, 09:58:58 AM »

Depressing reading all of these compensator failures that are denied by H.D. My `15 C.V.O. St. Glide 11,300 miles I cringe on what is to come...... trade for Jap. bike?

Author Topic: Compensator-My Story might help you (Read 14547 times)

stevep1794