Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ultrafxr]

Guy posted on another forum that his friend who has a 2017 SG received a letter from H-D advising him to take his bike to his dealer so they could perform a leak down test.  No further info available and he did not post a copy of the letter.  So don't know if it is legit . . . if it was unsolicited or if he'd been having problems which lead the moco to send the letter.

So just wondering if what T-Man discovered and posted about his high incidences of leak down test failure is becoming so widespread that the moco is taking action.

[hd-dude]

 "Moto taking action"

[ultrafxr]

"Moto taking action"

Yeah. That is pretty funny.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grc]

By "taking action", I assume you mean taking the usual "stealth" approach to try to keep things quiet.

If in fact they have machining issues on the M8 valve seats it wouldn't surprise me.  Don't forget all the valve and valve guide issues they had in 2007 and 2008 on the TC's.

Jerry

[JCZ]

"It's normal....they all do that".

[J.D.]

"10.5:1 is theoretical compression ratio.  It's pretty normal to see more like 8:1." 

[Twolanerider]

"10.5:1 is theoretical compression ratio.  It's pretty normal to see more like 8:1." 

Other than that if a cylinder has no or limited compression it will obviously fail a leakdown test somewhere the two tests are separate animals.  So what does any anticipated or actual compression ratio have to do with the MoCo's possibly sending a letter suggesting potential proactive maintenance conducting a leakdown test?

[newseultra07]

 

[Para Bellum]

So just wondering if what T-Man discovered and posted about his high incidences of leak down test failure is becoming so widespread that the moco is taking action.

Can you point me to that T-Man post?  TIA

[sadunbar]

Can you point me to that T-Man post?  TIA

T-Man posted a you tube video on Facebook discussing (and showing) the valve seat issue...

[Para Bellum]

Thanks, Scott.  Here it is for others:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-ZApNGjOuM

[erniezap]

The MoCo will do like they did with the crank runout.  They will update the spec to make everything “within tolerances” versus fixing the problem.

[Ironhorse]

The MoCo will do like they did with the crank runout.  They will update the spec to make everything “within tolerances” versus fixing the problem.

Yup, going from “x” amount of oil consumed per 1,000 miles, becomes “x+x” amount of oil consumed in 1,000 mile is acceptable.

And still we buy the bikes.

Ernie I still can’t believe what they did to you over that wheel.

[J.D.]

It seems this is Harley's current issue resolution process:

1. Deny there is a problem.  Tell all customer's either their issue is normal (they all do that), or that their aftermarket modifications voided their warranty.
2. Wait for aftermarket to "prove" there is an issue and/or threat of class action lawsuit.
3. Send out letter to gather information.
4a. If issue can cause serious injury, issue a recall; or
4b. If issue does not pose significant potential safety threat, issue new spec based on information gathered so vast majority of claims fall under new established parameters.
5a. If no safety issue, wait for aftermarket to develop a real fix; or
5b. Create a Screamin' Eagle upgrade kit at customer's expense (parts + labor) to "get to the upper range" of spec.

[mark]

How in the world can a billion dollar company that's produced bikes since 1903 not be able to produce an engine without a plethora of problems?  M8 oil pump/sumping problems and now bad valve seats.  Meanwhile, Polaris has apparently produced bulletproof engines for their bikes...since 2014. 

Perhaps the MoCo should use the "Revolution" approach and just farm out engine development to another entity. 

[Para Bellum]

It seems this is Harley's current issue resolution process:

1. Deny there is a problem.  Tell all customer's either their issue is normal (they all do that), or that their aftermarket modifications voided their warranty.
2. Wait for aftermarket to "prove" there is an issue and/or threat of class action lawsuit.
3. Send out letter to gather information.
4a. If issue can cause serious injury, issue a recall; or
4b. If issue does not pose significant potential safety threat, issue new spec based on information gathered so vast majority of claims fall under new established parameters.
5a. If no safety issue, wait for aftermarket to develop a real fix; or
5b. Create a Screamin' Eagle upgrade kit at customer's expense (parts + labor) to "get to the upper range" of spec.

5c.  Wait for it to break outside warranty, then refer to 5b.

How in the world can a billion dollar company that's produced bikes since 1903 not be able to produce an engine without a plethora of problems?  M8 oil pump/sumping problems and now bad valve seats. 

Uhh...because they don't want to?   

[fastfreddy]

like many issues, the dealer will say... "never seen that before" how the hell can they be the masters of HD service and never see a broke motor cycle 

[ultrafxr]

Here is an update video from T-Man.  Problem seems to stem from the valve seat inserts not being properly inserted into the head. Pics at end of video show the problem in detail.

[mark]

Does make you wonder how those faulty valve seats got through quality control. 

[ultrafxr]

Does make you wonder how those faulty valve seats got through quality control.

From what (I think) I understand it is more an installation issue than a part quality issue per se.  Still there is a quality issue relating to the process for sure.  Doesn't solve any possible issues but I wonder if the moco assembles the heads in house or if they are procured from an outside vendor. 

[Twolanerider]

From what (I think) I understand it is more an installation issue than a part quality issue per se.  Still there is a quality issue relating to the process for sure.  Doesn't solve any possible issues but I wonder if the moco assembles the heads in house or if they are procured from an outside vendor.

Proud of the seat one might (or might not) see a knurl left from the poorly installed seat.  That such a thing might happen is easy enough to understand.  It shouldn't be a common thing at all.  But one can understand how it would happen.

The fact of its repetition suggests a couple things though.  A certain lack of care/precision in the assembly process and, every bit if not more worrying, an obvious lack of relatively simple testing.  It's not that big a deal to jig up a bare casting to pressure test.  That's not something your aftermarket should have to find for you.

[ultrafxr]

The OP on the forum where I first saw this advises that he spoke to his friend about the letter.  Turns out it may be a TSB from the moco but the friend is having trouble locating it after the 'Christmas clean up.'  I've searched for such a TSB but no joy. In any case the issue does appear to be real and of some consequence as evidenced by T-Man's videos and I've seen threads on several forums. 

One post had a excellent suggestion:  'Maybe they can pressurize the primary with some of the blow-by so the trans lube will stay in the trans.'

[Para Bellum]

One post had a excellent suggestion:  'Maybe they can pressurize the primary with some of the blow-by so the trans lube will stay in the trans.'

LOL

[hrdtail78]

TR brings up a good question with how the factory installs seats.  Press in or bang them in.  I know some manufactures pull the seat into place as it is pushing in guide.  Anyway, I would assume HD is not new at this.

Something I would of liked to see with the vid and pics is the clock angle of the flaw.  Are they under the port at the thinnest part of the head?  Is the 2nd seat adding to this problem by putting more force in this area?

Not a head guy so I might not be using proper nomenclature.  BUT I am trying to describe a problem that one can get into by over boring a seat to what it was meant to, and puts pressure to the underside of runner at a higher psi because the lack of material to spread out that load.

[MCE]

The MoCo will do like they did with the crank runout.  They will update the spec to make everything “within tolerances” versus fixing the problem.

Gotta love how they "take the bull by the horns". (not)

I'm surprised the seats aren't falling out. If there's enough slop for air leakage,
they have to be pretty loose. wth?

[Fullsac Performance]

Gotta love how they "take the bull by the horns". (not)

I'm surprised the seats aren't falling out. If there's enough slop for air leakage,
they have to be pretty loose. wth?

The CNC head porters have all struggled with core shift on the HD heads. The seats don't actually have to be loose to have a bypass of air around them. if there is any void in the seat pocket where the cutter didn't touch 100% of the aluminum, you have potential for an issue.

Steve@fullsac.com