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Author Topic: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!  (Read 11543 times)

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ultrafxr

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2018, 04:01:16 PM »

For me the worst company by far is Comcast.  Harley may have it's problems, but when it comes to Comcast, HD is not even in the race.
I totally agree with that statement.  So now they call themselves Xfinity and think all the negatives will be erased.  Maybe the moco can change their name to Hawree-DMW and all the problems will magically disappear.
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Heatwave

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2018, 04:40:35 PM »

Not that this helps at all, but direct from Harleys Settlement with the EPA which is available at www.epa.gov - I recommend everyone read the Decree. It interesting at best. https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-12/documents/harleydavidson-cd.pdf

"14. Denial of Warranty
A. Defendants shall deny all warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley Davidson Vehicle (model year 2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any defendants have information to show that such vehicle was tuned using a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA."

So, no matter how friendly your Dealer is, MoCo paid 12 Mil and agreed to the above. I also learned that when they are plugged into the HD Service Computer they report the mapping without the Tech being able to do anything about it. The Decree even notes that Dealers with that knowledge must also comply.

As far as aftermarket parts, its still per the Mag/Moss ruling. But tuning is no game anymore.

I bought the extended warranty because of some of the stories I have heard and for 35,000 I care to keep it. I will be changing my exhaust, but will stay with the HD Tuner until I'm tired and ready to change more.

Most everyone on this forum is familiar with the EPA Consent Decree. Its been regurgitated endlessly. The point being made is that the engine sumping failures and transmission fluid transfer should NOT be assessed as warranty claims.  These major bike defects should be evaluated as recalls due to the extensive rate of occurence and extensive damage potential.

Let’s put it in simple terms. If you own a stock 2017/18 bike and you only ride it sporadicly accumulating let’s say 2000 miles in 2 yrs. You didn’t buy the ESP but you followed all the rules and kept the bike fully stock.

After 25 months of ownership, you now take a long trip on the bike. The engine sumps because it has the earliest oil pump which is known by HD to be defective. The engine seizes due to lack of lubrication as a direct result of the defective oil pump. Do you believe that HD owes you a new engine even though you are no longer in the warranty period? You bet your sweet azz you expect them to provide a new engine....WHY?? Because you think it should have been a recall.

Sounds like the situation that the OP is in even though he’s modified the bike. I GUARANTEE there will be guys that sadly find themselves in this exact situation. No one has experienced this event because the M8 isn’t 2yrs old yet. But come this Fall and even more so in the Spring of 2019, there will be many sad examples of guys with engine failures due to a known engine defect that will have no repair coverage from HD. Hopefully no one reading these words will be one of them.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2018, 05:33:59 PM by Heatwave »
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Para Bellum

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2018, 06:50:35 PM »

That being said, HD is a business that's struggling so no one should be surprised when they take the absolute least costly approach to issues they are experiencing, even if it burns some customer bridges in both the short and long term.
No doubt HD agrees completely with the explanation above, but I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for this aspect of their problem.  Sure, part of their problem is caused by the aging of their main buyers, but part of their decreased sales are due to their quality problems and the premium price they charge. 

In large part, that's due to Wandell's (their previous CEO) deliberate strategy to cut the price of every component and assembly process that goes into the bike...leading directly to a decrease in quality...while increasing the already-premium price.  Add in the lousy warranty service, failure to do recalls due to manufacturing/design defects, and the high cost of parts and service...well, the new CEO inherited the $hit $how, and he's between a rock and a bulldozer.
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trahog

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2018, 04:22:44 PM »

my buddy is on his 7th motor 2017 cvo stage 4 kit ,sumping again
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1roadking

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2018, 09:41:51 AM »

Glad I stayed with my 2016 LOL. It’s hard to believe they can’t figure out a oil pump issue. Why wouldn’t they just pull the big bore kits until they figure this out! If this problem is a design flaw, all the bikes will eventually sump. I can’t believe this not a recall and priority number 1 right now.
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lyn.husen

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2018, 05:20:48 PM »

Just a few more reasons why I will stick with my 2009 FLTRSE3, and of course it’s paid for.


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KGB

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2018, 06:07:02 PM »

my buddy is on his 7th motor 2017 cvo stage 4 kit ,sumping again

I think if I was on my 7th motor, I would want it bought back and refunded every penny I spent on that purchase along with jackets, helmets etc.

That's just unbelievable 7 motors 
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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2018, 08:08:10 PM »

No doubt HD agrees completely with the explanation above, but I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy for this aspect of their problem.  Sure, part of their problem is caused by the aging of their main buyers, but part of their decreased sales are due to their quality problems and the premium price they charge. 

In large part, that's due to Wandell's (their previous CEO) deliberate strategy to cut the price of every component and assembly process that goes into the bike...leading directly to a decrease in quality...while increasing the already-premium price.  Add in the lousy warranty service, failure to do recalls due to manufacturing/design defects, and the high cost of parts and service...well, the new CEO inherited the $hit $how, and he's between a rock and a bulldozer.
Harleys problem is bigger than an aging customer base. Part of there problem is competitive. I owned and rode Harleys for 28 years, when BMW introduced the new K1600B or Bagger I was intrigued by the design, when I test rode it I was sold. Bought one the next day. 6cyl putting out 160hp along with comfort, handling and modern features I longed for on my Harleys.

Since buying my BMW I have met several other guys that have done the same.

It's nice buying a new bike with more performance than any V-Twin, regardless of the stage kit. That rides and handles as you expect with stock suspension. Could go on and on but you get the picture.

Still love Harleys but accept there limitations. By the way, my new 18 BMW K1600B has not had a single warranty issue. It's built so well I really don't expect problems. If I do, I was able to buy a 6 year extended service contract with no deductible and unlimited miles for $1500.

My point, Harley has competition like never before, not just from BMW, from Indian, Honda, Yamaha, on and on.

Harley needs to up there game. Build top quality bikes backed with great service. They need to be the "Snap On" of motorcycles.

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aclass

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2018, 09:29:39 PM »

I'm with iski and lyn.husen on both accounts.

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Robmay

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2018, 10:44:00 PM »

I’m in the boat Heatwave mentioned. Have a 2017 SG with barely 1200 miles on it. Ride mainly 2 up and take the RG ultra most rides/trips. SG will be 2 years old this fall. Does the extended warranty cover the bike with aftermarket header pipe and mufflers? I have the HD tuner. All purchased and installed by the dealer (not that that seems to make a difference anymore).

Rob
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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2018, 11:53:27 PM »

I recently traded my 2012 CVO SG for a 2018 Softail ANN Heritage.  By 3900 miles or so it was using a quart of oil in about 750 miles.  Took it in and turned it in.  Waiting for my ride back I spot a 2014 Ultra Limited, Daytona blue.  3500 unmodified miles.

I traded straight across and couldn't be happier so far.  No more M8 for me.
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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2018, 10:50:59 AM »

I’m in the boat Heatwave mentioned. Have a 2017 SG with barely 1200 miles on it. Ride mainly 2 up and take the RG ultra most rides/trips. SG will be 2 years old this fall. Does the extended warranty cover the bike with aftermarket header pipe and mufflers? I have the HD tuner. All purchased and installed by the dealer (not that that seems to make a difference anymore).

Rob

Rob:

Maybe at the selling dealer but things are very sticky with the warranty people. As you have read here they are inclined to deny claims with aftermarket addons especially tuners and pipes.

Regards

Jerry

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Heatwave

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2018, 11:21:11 AM »

Rob:

Maybe at the selling dealer but things are very sticky with the warranty people. As you have read here they are inclined to deny claims with aftermarket addons especially tuners and pipes.

Regards

Jerry



Its worth noting the T&Cs vary significantly between the Factory warranty and the HD ESP or even other aftermarket extended warranties. The factory warranty makes specific reference to non-epa approved tuners, non-epa approved exhaust and aftermarket engine components as grounds for rejecting a warranty claim AND also grounds for voiding both the 2yr Factory Warranty AND the HD ESP.

However after the the 2 yr Factory warranty has expired the T&Cs of the ESP or aftermarket extended warranty come into effect and the MOCO is out of the picture since the ESP is administered by a third party company (CSP - Continental Service Provider). Specifically the ESP clearly states the following under "Non-covered conditions":

"Your motorcycle if it has been modified with any aftermarket and/or non-street legal alterations to the powertrain, the suspension (including tire or wheel sizes) and/or a non-EPA approved compliant Exhaust system if the ESP claim was caused or contributed to by the modification or the non-compliant system."

That's a different standard for denying a claim than HD uses to deny factory warranty claims. Factory warranty claims can be denied if any of the non-EPA components are found to be present. The extended warranty claim rejection standard requires that the non-epa parts must have "caused or contributed" to the failure that is being submitted for warranty coverage. Very different standards once the factory warranty has expired and a bike has moved into the extended warranty coverage period.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 11:27:38 AM by Heatwave »
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CVOStreetglide

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2018, 12:14:34 PM »

Its worth noting the T&Cs vary significantly between the Factory warranty and the HD ESP or even other aftermarket extended warranties. The factory warranty makes specific reference to non-epa approved tuners, non-epa approved exhaust and aftermarket engine components as grounds for rejecting a warranty claim AND also grounds for voiding both the 2yr Factory Warranty AND the HD ESP.

However after the the 2 yr Factory warranty has expired the T&Cs of the ESP or aftermarket extended warranty come into effect and the MOCO is out of the picture since the ESP is administered by a third party company (CSP - Continental Service Provider). Specifically the ESP clearly states the following under "Non-covered conditions":

"Your motorcycle if it has been modified with any aftermarket and/or non-street legal alterations to the powertrain, the suspension (including tire or wheel sizes) and/or a non-EPA approved compliant Exhaust system if the ESP claim was caused or contributed to by the modification or the non-compliant system."

That's a different standard for denying a claim than HD uses to deny factory warranty claims. Factory warranty claims can be denied if any of the non-EPA components are found to be present. The extended warranty claim rejection standard requires that the non-epa parts must have "caused or contributed" to the failure that is being submitted for warranty coverage. Very different standards once the factory warranty has expired and a bike has moved into the extended warranty coverage period.



I am very concerned that the “next step” will be we will only take your bike in on trade or give you a trade value after we confirm that no mods have been made.

Soon dealers will only be placing used bikes on the floor that conform to the statement
“This bike conforms to all existing government laws and regulations.”

That will put a huge dent in the aftermarket parts and performance business for sure.

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Heatwave

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Re: Harley Davidson is the worst company out there period!
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2018, 12:38:19 PM »



I am very concerned that the “next step” will be we will only take your bike in on trade or give you a trade value after we confirm that no mods have been made.

Soon dealers will only be placing used bikes on the floor that conform to the statement
“This bike conforms to all existing government laws and regulations.”

That will put a huge dent in the aftermarket parts and performance business for sure.



Not likely. The only thing a dealer cares about when taking a trade is can they get it for next to nothing from you and sell it above retail to someone else. Being compliant is completely irrelevant. Just needs to meet local State laws for passing inspection, if there is one.
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