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[Heatwave]

For those that have followed, I've had 2 previous engines fail due to sumping. If you're not familiar you can catch up here https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=112589.msg1434968#msg1434968

My engine is in today for the 3rd Stage IV upgrade (covered by HD warranty). This stock engine has run well since it was installed last August 2017. HD has owed me this upgrade and I want the bike running with the upgrades I paid for and with the performance that HD advertises for the Stage IV kit. So far, both the dealer and HD have stood behind their product attempting to make it right.

Today my 2017 CVO Limited is having the 3rd Stage IV upgrade using the latest Gen 4 oil pump (see pic below). The installation is being done at the same dealer that has performed the other installs but the installation is being supervised with HD engineering support. In addition to the latest oil pump, the Stage IV installation includes a few "one off" parts that engineering believes will ensure a strong engine and no sumping... of course the proof will be in the riding. We'll see soon enough.

[J.D.]

Excellent, how cool to be part of the HD R&D process!

[Heatwave]

Excellent, how cool to be part of the HD R&D process!

Not so sure how cool it is. I would definitely have preferred NOT being a part of their R&D and simply had my bike working as they advertised and as I paid for. BUT, if the sumping is now a part of the past on my bike, I will be certainly be relieved so I can just get back to enjoying time on the bike.

[J.D.]

Sorry, a lame attempt at sarcasm.

In all honesty I hope they got it right for you.

[RivRaptor]

Myself & others I'm sure would like to know what the  "one off parts" are!

[grc]

Myself & others I'm sure would like to know what the  "one off parts" are!

So much for the story it was just an oil pump problem.  If that was the case, they wouldn't need to bring any other prototype parts with them.  In other words, they still don't have a fix nailed down for the root cause(s).

Jerry

[ultrarider123]

Sorry, a lame attempt at sarcasm.

In all honesty I hope they got it right for you.

I caught your drift...

....while it was funny sarcasm, it's a shame your statement was true. 
We all are (and continue to be) unpaid test subjects/lab rats when it comes to new stuff from the MoCo...

[J.D.]

What this does is finally confirm to me mother HD knows they have a real problem on their hands with this M8 engine design.

[Heatwave]

So much for the story it was just an oil pump problem.  If that was the case, they wouldn't need to bring any other prototype parts with them.  In other words, they still don't have a fix nailed down for the root cause(s).

Jerry

Well not exactly. More results to follow.

On a separate note, all fluids were spot on their full mark. In other words, the Transmission was exactly where it was suppose to be as well as the Primary and the engine oil was less than a 1/4 Qt low. I had the fluids changed per the manual and after 7800miles not a drop of fluid has moved from the transmission or primary. Also worth noting the coolant was only a hair low.

Of major importance to me on this 3rd engine (Aug 2017 build), the oil jets screws were right on their torque spec and looked good. Crank rods (2500 miles on this engine) rotated freely and looked good according to the tech. Hopefully this engine is on a good path.

[*58Vette]

I know when I had my 2007 in the shop waiting on Harley to fix, and it lasted for more than 30 days at a time, I called harley customer service in Milwakee and they paid my loan payments for me until is was fixed.

[Heatwave]

I know when I had my 2007 in the shop waiting on Harley to fix, and it lasted for more than 30 days at a time, I called harley customer service in Milwakee and they paid my loan payments for me until is was fixed.

HD has been good to me so far. They put a 7yr ESP including wheel & tire coverage at no charge on the bike. Plus they added the Stage IV to the ESP so those parts are also covered for the entire 7yrs. So while its been a frustrating experience for a new bike, the dealer has turned the bike around in 48hrs with HDs support and tried to accomodate me wherever they could.

Now I just need this bike to perform as I know its capable without sumping.

[SDCVO]

You are certainly nicer than me, my third motor sumped and I am going to war with them and it is not pretty right now..

[Heatwave]

You are certainly nicer than me, my third motor sumped and I am going to war with them and it is not pretty right now..

Yeah, I was “hot” at first too. But it doesn’t really help so whats the point? Chewing out the techs or the service dept is of no help. Chewing out HD Service Rep isn’t going to help either. Once you catch your breath, I found the best approach is being rationale and look for the best path forward that they can deliver that will reasonably meet expectations.

I’m mentally prepared that it is very possible that even with their assurances and “special” care taken to get the bike right, its still possible I might find myself sumping once again. I certainly hope not and trust me, once the engine is properly broken in, if the engine can be made to sump, i will find out. Hopefully its a non-issue and the bike runs great. If not, I guess I’ll be having a VERY different conversatiion with the MoCo.

[SDCVO]

Yeah, I was “hot” at first too. But it doesn’t really help so whats the point? Chewing out the techs or the service dept is of no help. Chewing out HD Service Rep isn’t going to help either. Once you catch your breath, I found the best approach is being rationale and look for the best path forward that they can deliver that will reasonably meet expectations.

I’m mentally prepared that it is very possible that even with their assurances and “special” care taken to get the bike right, its still possible I miht find myself sumping once again. I certainly hope not and trust me, once the engine is properly broken in, if the engine can be made to sump, i will find out. Hopefully its a non-issue and the bike runs great. If not, I guess I’ll be having a VERY different conversatiion with the MoCo.

Unfortunately I am in that conversation now.. Not going well. Rep told me it was my riding style today and I ride to aggressively for the stage 4 and should go back to stock and they would put a new stock motor in (mine toast) and refund me the cost of the stage 4. Sure you can imagine my response. Going to meet with his boss sometime in the next 2 weeks and will try 1 more time to resolve and if not just turning over to the attorney (who is of course telling me to turn over to him now and stop wasting my time) for the "long fight"..
The BMW looking better..

[Heatwave]

Unfortunately I am in that conversation now.. Not going well. Rep told me it was my riding style today and I ride to aggressively for the stage 4 and should go back to stock and they would put a new stock motor in (mine toast) and refund me the cost of the stage 4. Sure you can imagine my response. Going to meet with his boss sometime in the next 2 weeks and will try 1 more time to resolve and if not just turning over to the attorney (who is of course telling me to turn over to him now and stop wasting my time) for the "long fight"..
The BMW looking better..

Yep, that’s the same tactic they took with me. My riding style is the problem. That’s BS and they know it. I said you don’t even know my riding style. I’m an experienced riding that is using my bike EXACTLY the way the Stage IV kit is advertised in their parts catalog.

“This Stage IV kit was developed to deliver maximum horse-power from the Milwaukee-Eight engine - all the way to redline”

“Designed for a high level of flexibility, this package is ideal for riders who want stump pulling torque throughout the RPM range and also crave plenty of arm pulling acceleration when you whack the throttle”

“The rider will feel exceptional acceleration, delivering significant gains and up to 40% increase in the higher RPM range.”

These are direct quotes from Harley Davidson’s 2018 SE Performance parts catalog.  Describing the HD SE Stage IV Kit. No one should tolerate any suggestion that “riding style” is at fault. Unacceptable as HD is promoting the Stage IV kit SPECIFICALLY for a more assertive riding style. And suggesting otherwise is nothing more than a bunch of lawyers telling dealer reps to make the issue about the rider and not the bike.

Keep the pressure up.... calmly and rationally. No need for threats, they are a waste of time. Come to agreement on next steps. Make the dealer rep send the agreed to steps in a written email. No verbal agreements unless they are followed up in writing.

They need to be pushed until they spend the money to make these bikes right and deliver the performance they advertise and that we paid for. Nothing less is acceptable.

[Twolanerider]

By RPM redline, speed limitation, and acceleration parameters programmed in to the bike's control electronics the company already defines acceptable riding "style."

[ultrarider123]

By RPM redline, speed limitation, and acceleration parameters programmed in to the bike's control electronics the company already defines acceptable riding "style."

Good answer 

[grc]

Ultimately, when they don't know what to do they always fall back on the time worn response and blame it on the customer.  And if you think about it, they are right.  If the customer just left it in the garage and looked at it as art, instead of thinking he could also take it out and ride it, all these problems would just disappear.  No more sumping, no more moisture in the electrical stuff (unless the garage has a roof leak), no more lifter failures, no more wobbles, etc. 

Jerry

[Heatwave]

There is hope! I got my 2017 CVO Limted back late this afternoon after having the Stage IV kit installed. 

The installation had HD engineering involved to ensure everything was done by their specifications. Cylinders washed, oil pump pressure relief valve checked before installation, latest oil pump installed following the prescribed torque procedure.

Engine went through the required heat cycles and then they did a 20 mile ride and checked all fluid levels. All were perfect. Then another 30 mile ride by the tech. All fluids were still perfect plus they pulled the crank position sensor and just an ounce or so dribbled out.

I picked up the bike and did a 100 mile ride before dark. 70 degree temp outside. The bike feels terrific. After 2 prior engines that sumped, I’m familiar with what to look for and how to induce sumping.  Obviously I was gentle and stayed under 3500 rpms but did a long 50 mile run on an interstate at 3000-3200rpms (75-80mph). No feeling of any sumping. Just clean power whenever I wanted it.

I did another 50miles on backroads with lots of shifting. No sense of sumping.

The additional good news was that the engine ran exceptionally cooler than either my recent stock 114 or my previous Stage IV 117s. I reached this conclusion based on the fact that my coolant fans never came on even after an hr run on the highway at 80mph or on the backroads with lots of shifting after I came to a stop. Granted it was only 70 degrees outside however my other engines would have the coolant fans running after 10-15mins of the same conditions.

So its definitely early with only 150 miles on this Stage IV build but there’s very good reason to be optimistic. A lousy weather weekend ahead so I can’t get any more miles  til next week, but I feel this third build could be the charm.

[rayson56]

Fingers crossed and best of luck to you. Being the pessimist that I am, are you sure that they reconnected your fans for you and that they are working?

[Heatwave]

Fingers crossed and best of luck to you. Being the pessimist that I am, are you sure that they reconnected your fans for you and that they are working?

Yes they did come on briefly while idling on the kickstand after one of the runs. I was inspecting the engine for any cyl base leaks (none) and had the engine idling when the fans finally came on, so I know they are working. I also held my hand over the outlet when running on the highway (which I occassionaly did with the other builds) and to my hands touch, the radiator temps were the coolest I’ve felt since I owned the bike.

[SDCVO]

There is hope! I got my 2017 CVO Limted back late this afternoon after having the Stage IV kit installed. 

The installation had HD engineering involved to ensure everything was done by their specifications. Cylinders washed, oil pump pressure relief valve checked before installation, latest oil pump installed following the prescribed torque procedure.

Engine went through the required heat cycles and then they did a 20 mile ride and checked all fluid levels. All were perfect. Then another 30 mile ride by the tech. All fluids were still perfect plus they pulled the crank position sensor and just an ounce or so dribbled out.

I picked up the bike and did a 100 mile ride before dark. 70 degree temp outside. The bike feels terrific. After 2 prior engines that sumped, I’m familiar with what to look for and how to induce sumping.  Obviously I was gentle and stayed under 3500 rpms but did a long 50 mile run on an interstate at 3000-3200rpms (75-80mph). No feeling of any sumping. Just clean power whenever I wanted it.

I did another 50miles on backroads with lots of shifting. No sense of sumping.

The additional good news was that the engine ran exceptionally cooler than either my recent stock 114 or my previous Stage IV 117s. I reached this conclusion based on the fact that my coolant fans never came on even after an hr run on the highway at 80mph or on the backroads with lots of shifting after I came to a stop. Granted it was only 70 degrees outside however my other engines would have the coolant fans running after 10-15mins of the same conditions.

So its definitely early with only 150 miles on this Stage IV build but there’s very good reason to be optimistic. A lousy weather weekend ahead so I can’t get any more miles  til next week, but I feel this third build could be the charm.

On both my new motors after first sump bike ran perfect until right at 1000 miles. Last Sat in So Cal was crazy hot (100 degrees) and I thought oh boy, it may sump now. Ran it hard and it ran great with no issues. Next day not hot, was running great for about 100 miles (not running it hard) and I stopped for a few minutes and when I got back on it sumped. Same as other times, felt like it was running in mud and started throwing off crazy heat right side. Went straight to the dealer and by the time I got there you could smell the metal burning.
3 motors in 2 months, just ordered the BMW bagger today...

[Heatwave]

On both my new motors after first sump bike ran perfect until right at 1000 miles. Last Sat in So Cal was crazy hot (100 degrees) and I thought oh boy, it may sump now. Ran it hard and it ran great with no issues. Next day not hot, was running great for about 100 miles (not running it hard) and I stopped for a few minutes and when I got back on it sumped. Same as other times, felt like it was running in mud and started throwing off crazy heat right side. Went straight to the dealer and by the time I got there you could smell the metal burning.
3 motors in 2 months, just ordered the BMW bagger today...

Yeah, I followed your “saga”. Sorry to hear the path you’ve been on. Can’t blame your decision-making at all. I’m hopeful my situation is different because the engine has not only the latest oil pump with HD supervision on the install, but they also built the Stage IV with “one-off” components that came straight from Engineering.

Will it prevent sumping, I won’t trust it till I’ve got 500+ miles. I’m confident once I get through break-in that I can induce sumping if the engine is susceptible. Time and miles will tell but these first 150 miles leave me optimistic for the time being.

[SDCVO]

Yeah, I followed your “saga”. Sorry to hear the path you’ve been on. Can’t blame your decision-making at all. I’m hopeful my situation is different because the engine has not only the latest oil pump with HD supervision on the install, but they also built the Stage IV with “one-off” components that came straight from Engineering.

Will it prevent sumping, I won’t trust it till I’ve got 500+ miles. I’m confident once I get through break-in that I can induce sumping if the engine is susceptible. Time and miles will tell but these first 150 miles leave me optimistic for the time being.

Really don't mean to be a downer and actually try not to be a complainer on the forum. Obviously there are thousands of M8's out there that are fine and people are loving. Just think there is something about my bike that just cant be fixed. Last motor (just a couple of weeks ago) they actually sent the top end to a machine shop to dial in the tolerances of the top end though I have no idea what failed this time as Harley has told the dealer to not touch the bike since we are in our "situation". I think if you can get a couple thousand miles on yours with no issues you will be in the clear. Both of the new motors I had sumped right around 1000 miles

[bigcraig]

Did you find out what the "one-off" parts are?

I am very curious.

[Heatwave]

I was a little nervous about sharing because i doubt they can do it for most people and I didn’t want to frustrate those already having a tough experience. But given what I’ve been through I think everyone should demand the same.

In my case when the actual day came to do the install last week, they called me and wanted to postpone the build for a week. I was like WTH, I’ve had the appt for a month. What could be the issue now?

As I’ve suspected all along the issue is not a design issue but a manufacturing issue. Apparently the cylinder to rings to pistons clearances have been an issue in manufacturing. Combined with an oil pump not designed for an engine with those clearance issues has resulted in sumping.

So HD has tried to fix a cylinder manufacturing issue with a redesigned oil pump. Maybe they thought the oil pump design was defective or maybe they’ve known all along they had a serious cylinder/piston manufacturing issue they needed to solve and the oil pump change was the least expensive solution ... except it wasn’t.

In my case Engineering pulled my cylinders, pistons and rings and had them “matched” and trued to specifications in the Engineering lab and then overnighted to my dealer. They may also have modified the taper. I have no real details other than these 117 cylinders/pistons rings are “custom one offs” from engineering.

In combination with the latest oil pump, has it resolved engine oil sumping in M8 engines? Hard to say. I need more time and miles after breakin to really challenge this Stage IV 117 engine as it was advertised to perform. But early signs are encouraging. Particularly what appears to be cooler operating temps. But I’ve had hopes dashed before so I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself.

Can they do “custom one offs” for everyone. Doubtful but then again they shouldn’t need to for the money people pay for these bikes. Lets hope this is a solution they can transfer to manufacturing and get the M8 back on track.

[bigcraig]

Thanks, Heatwave.

I had a pretty good guess that was the case, in regards to "proper" machining of the cylinders.

I suppose that is why we haven't seen much of the sumping issue with big bore M8's that use aftermarket pistons and properly bored and seasoned cylinders, as well as the latest and greatest oil pump.

I am still going to hold off on my 124" build until the aftermarket, other than Fueling, brings a oil pump and cam plate to market. THEN ALL BETS ARE OFF!

Again, thanks for the update, and further updates to come.

[grc]

Hope this works for you and you finally have a reliable engine you can trust.

I'm still not convinced that poor piston ring to cylinder sealing would cause the oil pump scavenging system to fail, but it is at least nice to see they are trying something other than just oil pumps and blaming dealer techs for not torquing them correctly.  Harley has had poor cylinder sealing issues off and on for ages, including the Twin Cams in 2007/2008, and I don't remember a rash of sumping issues back then.  Lots of other issues, but not what we are now calling sumping.  I guess time will tell.  I just feel bad for all the folks caught up in this fiasco, and hope the MoCo steps up and does the right thing for everyone, and soon.

Jerry

[happyman]

There is hope! I got my 2017 CVO Limted back late this afternoon after having the Stage IV kit installed. 

The installation had HD engineering involved to ensure everything was done by their specifications. Cylinders washed, oil pump pressure relief valve checked before installation, latest oil pump installed following the prescribed torque procedure.

Engine went through the required heat cycles and then they did a 20 mile ride and checked all fluid levels. All were perfect. Then another 30 mile ride by the tech. All fluids were still perfect plus they pulled the crank position sensor and just an ounce or so dribbled out.
your good luck can change in a split second . happy for you if indeed it never sumps again.  I have seen this several times and then all of  a sudden the  sumping begins . 


I picked up the bike and did a 100 mile ride before dark. 70 degree temp outside. The bike feels terrific. After 2 prior engines that sumped, I’m familiar with what to look for and how to induce sumping.  Obviously I was gentle and stayed under 3500 rpms but did a long 50 mile run on an interstate at 3000-3200rpms (75-80mph). No feeling of any sumping. Just clean power whenever I wanted it.

I did another 50miles on backroads with lots of shifting. No sense of sumping.

The additional good news was that the engine ran exceptionally cooler than either my recent stock 114 or my previous Stage IV 117s. I reached this conclusion based on the fact that my coolant fans never came on even after an hr run on the highway at 80mph or on the backroads with lots of shifting after I came to a stop. Granted it was only 70 degrees outside however my other engines would have the coolant fans running after 10-15mins of the same conditions.

So its definitely early with only 150 miles on this Stage IV build but there’s very good reason to be optimistic. A lousy weather weekend ahead so I can’t get any more miles  til next week, but I feel this third build could be the charm.

[Twolanerider]

I'm still not convinced that poor piston ring to cylinder sealing would cause the oil pump scavenging system to fail,
Jerry

You're more tolerant or optimistic than I Jerry.  It's difficult to accept ring seal issues that would cause the issues described.  Especially when so many things suggest against.  Ring seal issues wouldn't be such a sudden onset and irregular as the sumping issues seem to present.  Ring seal issues would (almost) certainly present with other problems as well.  Seal issues would have to be so significant that to...


Well... I'll only say I'm afraid Harley is looking for something far simpler (and cheaper) than what is the real problem in the hopes they can find a minimally additive factor to their problem and remove that in hopes that an otherwise compromise system will be given just enough of a band aid they can sneak a lot of bikes beyond warranty without buying complete engines (or motorcycles).

[Heatwave]

You're more tolerant or optimistic than I Jerry.  It's difficult to accept ring seal issues that would cause the issues described.  Especially when so many things suggest against.  Ring seal issues wouldn't be such a sudden onset and irregular as the sumping issues seem to present.  Ring seal issues would (almost) certainly present with other problems as well.  Seal issues would have to be so significant that to...


Well... I'll only say I'm afraid Harley is looking for something far simpler (and cheaper) than what is the real problem in the hopes they can find a minimally additive factor to their problem and remove that in hopes that an otherwise compromise system will be given just enough of a band aid they can sneak a lot of bikes beyond warranty without buying complete engines (or motorcycles).

If you don’t believe the sumping is primarily driven by cylinder, ring, piston seal issues or the oil pump design, what is your theory on the cause of sumping in the M8?

[Twolanerider]

If you don’t believe the sumping is primarily driven by cylinder, ring, piston seal issues or the oil pump design, what is your theory on the cause of sumping in the M8?

If one looks at engineering drawings of the cases you'll see differences in the scavenge systems.  My fear is they designed a system that was barely ok for only most riding.  If that's so differences in scavenging abilities of the pumps themselves will only marginally address it.  The issue just doesn't present as one primarily caused by ring sealing, cylinder pressures or other top end issues.  That seems no more likely than the "riding style" excuse you were asked to accept earlier.

[Heatwave]

If one looks at engineering drawings of the cases you'll see differences in the scavenge systems.  My fear is they designed a system that was barely ok for only most riding.  If that's so differences in scavenging abilities of the pumps themselves will only marginally address it.  The issue just doesn't present as one primarily caused by ring sealing, cylinder pressures or other top end issues.  That seems no more likely than the "riding style" excuse you were asked to accept earlier.

What explains so many M8 stock bikes, with asserive riders, NOT sumping? Why are many, if not most, of SE Stage IV builds NOT sumping? While its disturbing to see so many posts of guys sumping, if this was truly a design issue we would be seeing massive #s of engine failures. But that’s not the case. Certainly the # is higher than expected or than the TC but is it a failure on a wholesale scale? I don’t think so or the noise level would be overwhelming requiring a recall.

It has all the appearances of defective manufacturing or perhaps serious QC issues on the release of defective components into the supply chain from my perspective.

[J.D.]

Likely many more of these have sumped and the riders were not knowledgeable enough to identify it, and many more eventually will when they get some additional miles.  There's way too many reports of sumping at this point to say there isn't a design problem.  Many reports of several different engines sumping on the same bike.  The oil pump design changes are chasing the symptom and not addressing the root cause of the issue, which appears to still be somewhat unknown (or at least not yet revealed).

[Heatwave]

Likely many more of these have sumped and the riders were not knowledgeable enough to identify it, and many more eventually will when they get some additional miles.  There's way too many reports of sumping at this point to say there isn't a design problem.  Many reports of several different engines sumping on the same bike.  The oil pump design changes are chasing the symptom and not addressing the root cause of the issue, which appears to still be somewhat unknown (or at least not yet revealed).

Having lived it personally, I tend to agree but I've just wondered if I'm too close to it to rationally see that a far greater # of bikes have NOT sumped or failed. I agree though that many guys that haven't sumped or failed yet, just have not put the bike into the right conditions to induce sumping. Its definitely a high % but no where near 10% of bikes built IMO (no factual evidence for that %, just my gut). I still believe the MAJOR root cause of M8 sumping is cylinder manufacturing defects getting into the supply chain (although leaking oil jets and sub-optimal oil pumps didn't help matters). At least that's the only cause I've seen legitimate evidence for.

IMO the degree of the cylinder defect is determining whether sumping happens catastrophically, or just occasionally or whether it can be easily induced. Minor enough and the guy riding gingerly might never experience it. If the cylinders have a severe defect.... well then.... an experienced rider will induce it easily.

Based on my experience, IMO I would never allow new cylinders installed on an M8 engine unless they were verified to specifications.

[happyman]

On both my new motors after first sump bike ran perfect until right at 1000 miles. Last Sat in So Cal was crazy hot (100 degrees) and I thought oh boy, it may sump now. Ran it hard and it ran great with no issues. Next day not hot, was running great for about 100 miles (not running it hard) and I stopped for a few minutes and when I got back on it sumped. Same as other times, felt like it was running in mud and started throwing off crazy heat right side. Went straight to the dealer and by the time I got there you could smell the metal burning.
3 motors in 2 months, just ordered the BMW bagger today...

what concerns me is  the fact that many dealers  claim no issues at all!! I find that  to be razzle dazzle. some even go into a raging fit, if you even ask if they have had problems, its almost funny to listen to the lies they spew. reason I say that is because when you know people who have been to some of these dealers for sumping issues they have done the repairs the so called sales person will stand there and knowingly  lie  to your face. you know who not to ever do business with them , not ever.    same goes for some people who do a lot of different builds  for people  and claim they have never seen sumping. that's a  man to run away from.   its fact these motors have issues and it does not need to be a stage so and so  to get the sump issue , stocker do it too so  the bss needs to stop and the  motor co. needs to step up to the plate and have fix and pay the price to give the customer what was payed for   by there own advertising, yes indeed its time .

[J.D.]

I'd bet it's more than 10%, far more, but let's hypothetically say it's 10%.  Is that not sufficient to say they have a design issue that should be recalled?

I've been through it on my 2002.  Eerily similar lack of accountability from the MoCo.  Original TC88 oil pump design sucks and breathers pass oil into the air cleaner on the vast majority of them.  Oh, that's normal, nothing wrong with oil running out of the air cleaner onto the side of the bike, and they issue a spec that losing 1 quart of oil every 1,000 miles on a brand new engine is normal.  Then the tensioners start failing as soon as 20,000 miles.  Issue a notice that if you don't have them inspected at 20K and your engine blows it's YOUR fault because you neglected the maintenance.  Then they eventually issue a hybrid camplate that improves but still does not solve the oil pump scavenging issue.  Then they issue an "improved" hybrid camplate with another oil pump design iteration that starts getting it under control (12 years after the TC engine was launched).  Not once did they compensate anyone for what is CLEARLY a design flaw (two actually).  I got mine sorted out finally but it was frustrating and certainly not cheap.

At this point HD has lost me as a customer, likely forever.

[Heatwave]

I'd bet it's more than 10%, far more, but let's hypothetically say it's 10%.  Is that not sufficient to say they have a design issue that should be recalled?

I've been through it on my 2002.  Eerily similar lack of accountability from the MoCo.  Original TC88 oil pump design sucks and breathers pass oil into the air cleaner on the vast majority of them.  Oh, that's normal, nothing wrong with oil running out of the air cleaner onto the side of the bike, and they issue a spec that losing 1 quart of oil every 1,000 miles on a brand new engine is normal.  Then the tensioners start failing as soon as 20,000 miles.  Issue a notice that if you don't have them inspected at 20K and your engine blows it's YOUR fault because you neglected the maintenance.  Then they eventually issue a hybrid camplate that improves but still does not solve the oil pump scavenging issue.  Then they issue an "improved" hybrid camplate with another oil pump design iteration that starts getting it under control (12 years after the TC engine was launched).  Not once did they compensate anyone for what is CLEARLY a design flaw (two actually).  I got mine sorted out finally but it was frustrating and certainly not cheap.

At this point HD has lost me as a customer, likely forever.

10% failure for that matter does NOT define a design issue. In fact even if the failure was 100%, it does not mean it was a design issue. If manufacturing is producing parts that do NOT meet design specifications and QC is not quarantining those parts away from manufacturing, then what you have is a manufacturing defect. Design could be perfect but manufacturing screwed the pooch. But in either case ... design or manufacturing defect.... if the failure rate is high enough than a recall is definitely in order. But no one outside of HD Management, Manufacturing and QC know what the failure rate is, therefore its all supposition outside the company.

[Twolanerider]

What explains so many M8 stock bikes, with asserive riders, NOT sumping? Why are many, if not most, of SE Stage IV builds NOT sumping? While its disturbing to see so many posts of guys sumping, if this was truly a design issue we would be seeing massive #s of engine failures. But that’s not the case. Certainly the # is higher than expected or than the TC but is it a failure on a wholesale scale? I don’t think so or the noise level would be overwhelming requiring a recall.

It has all the appearances of defective manufacturing or perhaps serious QC issues on the release of defective components into the supply chain from my perspective.

With our limited audience here the assumptions suggested we simply can't know.  We know there are some.  That's all we know.  Though relative to the fleet size and time in to the model's lives I'm of the impression we're seeing quantitatively similar chatter to the noise that came with the heads/head gaskets/cylinder liner problems eight or nine years ago.

We can't know what we don't know.  We do know there's an issue.  An issue that should be explainable in a system using a type of pump and scavenge system that is nothing new in the industry at large nor to HD specifically.  Despite this Harley is still taking a shotgun approach to problems they are variously describing and excusing/explaining.  That's really all we know for sure.  That, however, is bad enough to cause more indigestion.

[SDCVO]

I was a little nervous about sharing because i doubt they can do it for most people and I didn’t want to frustrate those already having a tough experience. But given what I’ve been through I think everyone should demand the same.

In my case when the actual day came to do the install last week, they called me and wanted to postpone the build for a week. I was like WTH, I’ve had the appt for a month. What could be the issue now?

As I’ve suspected all along the issue is not a design issue but a manufacturing issue. Apparently the cylinder to rings to pistons clearances have been an issue in manufacturing. Combined with an oil pump not designed for an engine with those clearance issues has resulted in sumping.

So HD has tried to fix a cylinder manufacturing issue with a redesigned oil pump. Maybe they thought the oil pump design was defective or maybe they’ve known all along they had a serious cylinder/piston manufacturing issue they needed to solve and the oil pump change was the least expensive solution ... except it wasn’t.

In my case Engineering pulled my cylinders, pistons and rings and had them “matched” and trued to specifications in the Engineering lab and then overnighted to my dealer. They may also have modified the taper. I have no real details other than these 117 cylinders/pistons rings are “custom one offs” from engineering.

In combination with the latest oil pump, has it resolved engine oil sumping in M8 engines? Hard to say. I need more time and miles after breakin to really challenge this Stage IV 117 engine as it was advertised to perform. But early signs are encouraging. Particularly what appears to be cooler operating temps. But I’ve had hopes dashed before so I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself.

Can they do “custom one offs” for everyone. Doubtful but then again they shouldn’t need to for the money people pay for these bikes. Lets hope this is a solution they can transfer to manufacturing and get the M8 back on track.

Interesting that they came up with the same thing on mine the 2nd time and sent the top end to a machine shop in No Cal telling me it was a "one off deal" they were doing for me to make sure it would fix the problem as well as putting in the brand new oil pump. When the machine shop sent back to the dealer they sent the tolerances they measured which were impressive but to no avail..

[happyman]

Interesting that they came up with the same thing on mine the 2nd time and sent the top end to a machine shop in No Cal telling me it was a "one off deal" they were doing for me to make sure it would fix the problem as well as putting in the brand new oil pump. When the machine shop sent back to the dealer they sent the tolerances they measured which were impressive but to no avail..

welcome to the  one of club.  Failures . its much deeper than cylinders and fit. 

[happyman]

Unfortunately I am in that conversation now.. Not going well. Rep told me it was my riding style today and I ride to aggressively for the stage 4 and should go back to stock and they would put a new stock motor in (mine toast) and refund me the cost of the stage 4. Sure you can imagine my response. Going to meet with his boss sometime in the next 2 weeks and will try 1 more time to resolve and if not just turning over to the attorney (who is of course telling me to turn over to him now and stop wasting my time) for the "long fight"..
The BMW looking better..

put it back to  what ever they want.  sell it, purchase  the  BMW, or whatever flavor serves your  choice.  these  bikes are to put it very mildly very disappointing.  the motor company  tosses the same parts on these m8 bikes and nothing changes.  you will be back all to often. it seems from reading  anymore, its Pete, and repeat the same ole bs that does not include a fix.  it just may get you a few hundred miles and your bike is in the shop again. they owe the people a bike and there is no other way to see justice. the bike of course will be what you have and it will be fully dependable for a change.  this  is a situation where the government should be stepping in and making sure the people are getting justice and  what they paid for. to be sure these bikes in certain situations,  will get you killed, or injured because of the failures. HD owes the owners of these bike a good bike  or all the money back.   How  HD get away with this this long is testomoney to the fact there is no consumer protection . they ae getting paid obviously by the corporations  to hose the consumer down  so it appears and is right in front of there face wihout any consequence
 

[Heatwave]

Sad to report. This 3rd engine upgraded to Stage IV last week, sumped pretty badly last night after a 75 mile run. Outside temps were 77 degrees. Looks like the cylinders/pistons/rings perfectly matched and specced by HD Engineering were not the solution, even with the latest oil pump ....*****180 casting. I've been a naysayer for awhile that the sumping issue is a design issue (vs a manufacturing issue), but I'm now convinced there is a serious design issue with the oiling system for the M8. I'm also convinced now that I can take any M8 and make it sump. Just plain sad. No idea where to go from here with this bike. The Dealer is coming to pick it up but won't be able to get the dealer rep onsite until early next week. Looks like another lost summer of riding this bike ahead of me. Time to put more miles on my other bike which is a joy to ride and far more dependable.

[chinashop bull]

I've been a naysayer for awhile that the sumping issue is a design issue (vs a manufacturing issue), but I'm now convinced there is a serious design issue with the oiling system for the M8. I'm also convinced now that I can take any M8 and make it sump.

Man that sucks. 

Could you please detail how to make the bike sump.  Mine has slumped twice. Dealer has installed latest oil pump and has instructed me to stress test it as hard as I can to see if I can make it sump.  Any guidance would be very much appreciated

[Heatwave]

Man that sucks. 

Could you please detail how to make the bike sump.  Mine has slumped twice. Dealer has installed latest oil pump and has instructed me to stress test it as hard as I can to see if I can make it sump.  Any guidance would be very much appreciated

Here's how I come to the conclusion that I can make any M8 sump. Its a set of riding situations and temps that has taken awhile to figure out. I never did it exactly on the stock 114 form and wished I had. I have a 25 mile loop I enjoy riding. Its a combination of nice twisties with steep inclines, sweeping turns around a reservoir, then 10 miles on an interstate and than more twisty back roads back to my house. Last night I road that loop 2 times ...easy.....and the bike felt terrific. No signs of power loss or overheating. I regularly checked the radiator fans to see if they were running and the engine was cool, no issues and I was smiling as the ride felt great. At the last minute I figured I would do a third loop.

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I pulled it into my garage on level ground and let it idle for 2 mins. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick. Very bad burnt oil smell which you could smell throughout the garage. Where it had been perfectly full when I left, it was now 5-6 rows of dots low on oil, which is more than a quart low in less than 250miles. Even crazier, I let it sit overnight to cool down. Pulled the dipstick this morning and the oil was in the same place I left it last night but you could still smell the burnt oil on the dipstick. I turned the engine on and let it idle for 2 mins per SB1450 on the kickstand. I turned the engine off. The oil FELL from 5-6 rows of dots low on the dipstick to BELOW the add mark. Serious problem if your oil can DROP to below "add" in just 2 mins of idling on the kickstand. Obviously the latest model oil pump was not returning the oil from the crankcase to the pan at the same rate it was being pumped to the top end.

My view is its really just a matter of time. A stock bike might take 4-5 of those loops, maybe more but eventually sumping would show its ugly head. That's just my opinion based on my experience with 3 sumping engines. Its all a matter of time, load & temps.

[ultrarider123]

Here's how I come to the conclusion that I can make any M8 sump. Its a set of riding situations and temps that has taken awhile to figure out. I never did it it on the stock 114 form and wished I had. I have a 25 mile loop I enjoy riding. Its a combination of nice twisties with steep inclines, sweeping turns around a reservoir, then 10 miles on an interstate and than more twisty back roads back to my house. Last night I road that loop 2 times ...easy.....and the bike felt terrific. No signs of power loss or overheating. I regularly checked the radiator fans to see if they were running and the engine was cool, no issues and I was smiling as the ride felt great. At the last minute I figured I would do a third loop.

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I pulled it into my garage on level ground and let it idle for 2 mins. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick. Very bad burnt oil smell which you could smell throughout the garage. Where it had been perfectly full when I left, it was now 5-6 rows of dots low on oil, which is more than a quart low in less than 250miles. Even crazier, I let it sit overnight to cool down. Pulled the dipstick this morning and the oil was in the same place I left it last night but you could still smell the burnt oil on the dipstick. I turned the engine on and let it idle for 2 mins per SB1450 on the kickstand. I turned the engine off. The oil FELL from 5-6 rows of dots low on the dipstick to BELOW the add mark. Serious problem if your oil can DROP to below "add" in just 2 mins of idling on the kickstand. Obviously the latest model oil pump was not returning the oil from the crankcase to the pan at the same rate it was being pumped to the top end.

My view is its really just a matter of time. A stock bike might take 4-5 of those loops, maybe more but eventually sumping would show its ugly head. That's just my opinion based on my experience with 3 sumping engines. Its all a matter of time, load & temps.

Well, it's obvious....it's not the bike, it's your riding style....

All of this with yours and SDCVO ALANCVO SDCVO (the artist formerly known as SDCVO...I am so confused) and others has proven to me there is a major issue other than an oil pump with the new M8.  We can bitch, discuss, argue, ponder and otherwise wax eloquently on what's doing it but the MoCo has a MAJOR fault here and pushing it down the road after the warranty goes out, while the norm for them, isn't what is needed here.  IF ma harley does introduce a new oiling set-up on the 2019 M8 bikes, they should figure out and provide a retrofit for all 2017/2018 M8's, free.  While releasing something that isn't ready to release ain't good, fixing it and owning the issue and fix could be a feather in their cap which may help to sell motorcycles. 

But hey, that would be if we lived in OZ or Fantasyland.  We live in reality so....please disregard the previous blurb....

[CVOStreetglide]

I think Steve Cole from Fullsac identified the causeswith this post.

STEVE COLE FULLSAC—HARLEY M8 SUMPING ISSUE POSSIBLE CAUSE


One of the most important things about the Factory Twin Cam pickup is it's position. If you were to fill the sump area with oil, it will fully cover the pickup hole with oil, with additional oil over the top of the hole. This is not the case with the M8 arrangement. The sump area is about 40% smaller on the M8 and the pickup hole location is wrong. Then to add insult to injury the plug used to block the hole for the pickup feed hole is wrong and once installed the plug itself is blocking a portion of the pickup hole.

Now with the smaller capacity to hold oil in the sump on the M8, it backs up and the flywheels are running through the oil all the time, just what you do not want in an engine! With there newest service bulletin instead of allow 3 oz of oil to come out and it passes the test for sumping they moved it up to 6 oz! This just means the crankshaft is running deeper into the oil! This is supposed to be a dry sump engine, which means NO oil for the crankshaft to run through.

So we have a crankshaft running through the oil which causes foaming
A reduced sump capacity
A mis-located oil pickup hole
A plug that blocks a portion of the pickup hole when installed
An air trap in the sump area feeding air into the suction pump
Piston oilers that leak additional oil into the engine
Cylinders that are so far out of round leaking (MoCo allows 20% leak down as good)

Then ask yourself do you really wonder why it might be sumping?

[09nessrg]

Do we have anybody with a 117, either stage 4 upgrade dealer installed or direct from the factory with many miles of no problems?
Would like to see the average of miles that pr obs arise.

[chinashop bull]

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I don't think any part of your ride other than running at 80-85 on the interstate have anything to do with your sumping issue.  Since you said you were near the end of your Interstate stage, I'm guessing sumping occurred after only 8-9miles on the Interstate.

Why on earth would you continue to ride once you notice you are losing power?  I can only assume you wanted to make a point with MOCO.  I probably would too.

[Heatwave]

I don't think any part of your ride other than running at 80-85 on the interstate have anything to do with your sumping issue.  Since you said you were near the end of your Interstate stage, I'm guessing sumping occurred after only 8-9miles on the Interstate.

Why on earth would you continue to ride once you notice you are losing power?  I can only assume you wanted to make a point with MOCO.  I probably would too.

Absolutely not. There was no sensation of power loss on the highway. Have you any familiarity with sumping? In this case, the loss of throttle response did not occur until I was several miles OFF the highway on backroads heading towards home.

 As I stated i was on backroads and it would have been dangerous to stop the bike with no where to pull off. I was a few miles from home when the throttle lag reached its worst and I nursed the bike back to my home. My safety would always take precedence over the mechanical welfare of the bike. In this case, both being safe and taking care of the bike was best achieved by nursing the bike a few miles back to my home.

[SDCVO]

Sad to report. This 3rd engine upgraded to Stage IV last week, sumped pretty badly last night after a 75 mile run. Outside temps were 77 degrees. Looks like the cylinders/pistons/rings perfectly matched and specced by HD Engineering were not the solution, even with the latest oil pump ....*****180 casting. I've been a naysayer for awhile that the sumping issue is a design issue (vs a manufacturing issue), but I'm now convinced there is a serious design issue with the oiling system for the M8. I'm also convinced now that I can take any M8 and make it sump. Just plain sad. No idea where to go from here with this bike. The Dealer is coming to pick it up but won't be able to get the dealer rep onsite until early next week. Looks like another lost summer of riding this bike ahead of me. Time to put more miles on my other bike which is a joy to ride and far more dependable.

Really sorry to hear about this!

[FLSTFI Dave]

I don't think any part of your ride other than running at 80-85 on the interstate have anything to do with your sumping issue.  Since you said you were near the end of your Interstate stage, I'm guessing sumping occurred after only 8-9miles on the Interstate.

Why on earth would you continue to ride once you notice you are losing power?  I can only assume you wanted to make a point with MOCO.  I probably would too.

I'm not sure its the interstate that caused the sumping.  What is your Opinion Heatwave?

I say this as I rode 1025 miles in 16 hours on my 117 M8, all interstate but 5 miles.  Zero issues, the next day I rode 520 or so in 8 hours, all interstate.  Cruise at 80 both days.  My thought is once you get it hot, and start running the curves hard with hills to add additional load is what was the cause.  Oil is sloshing all round doing the curves.

I do not know.  I keep hearing stock will sump.  I have 9K on mine, and its rode hard, but not abused.  Stock except head pipe, mufflers and tune.

[Heatwave]

I'm not sure its the interstate that caused the sumping.  What is your Opinion Heatwave?

I say this as I rode 1025 miles in 16 hours on my 117 M8, all interstate but 5 miles.  Zero issues, the next day I rode 520 or so in 8 hours, all interstate.  Cruise at 80 both days.  My thought is once you get it hot, and start running the curves hard with hills to add additional load is what was the cause.  Oil is sloshing all round doing the curves.

I do not know.  I keep hearing stock will sump.  I have 9K on mine, and its rode hard, but not abused.  Stock except head pipe, mufflers and tune.

I honestly now have no clue. I did not sense a power loss on the highway but several miles later on the backroads a subtle loss of throttle response began which progressively got worse. I assume the oil was building in the crankcase.

Could some event have started on the highway like foaming or some venting issue? Then that foaming or lack of venting caused the pump to cavitate or somehow lose its prime? Hell if I know anymore. But clearly the latest design oil pump and certified cylinders/pistons did not prevent sumping on my bike.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I honestly now have no clue. I did not sense a power loss on the highway but several miles later on the backroads a subtle loss of throttle response began which progressively got worse. I assume the oil was building in the crankcase.

Could some event have started on the highway like foaming or some venting issue? Then that foaming or lack of venting caused the pump to cavitate or somehow lose its prime? Hell if I know anymore. But clearly the latest design oil pump and certified cylinders/pistons did not prevent sumping on my bike.

Okay.  Thanks for the answer.  Sucks knowing Harley will not fix the issue.  Especially for guys like you and Alan, multiple times and Factory techs involved.

[jjkrueg]

I should probably quit reading this stuff because it’s worrisome. This year’s CVO Road Glide was the first one that made me say, “I have to have that” so I bought it. Mine is still stock other than Fullsac cores. Now I’m having second thoughts but I guess it’s too late, lol. My original plan was to ride it for 2 years until warrant up then do a big bore line I did on my TC, now not so sure but I guess time will tell more on these motors.

On another note, if interstate heat & high RPM’s are they culprit imagine what I-90 across SD could look like this August. Speed limit is already 80 so most guys run 85. Plus typically hot & windy sounds like a potent mix. I’m making the trek, hope I’m wrong!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[happyman]

I'm not sure its the interstate that caused the sumping.  What is your Opinion Heatwave?

I say this as I rode 1025 miles in 16 hours on my 117 M8, all interstate but 5 miles.  Zero issues, the next day I rode 520 or so in 8 hours, all interstate.  Cruise at 80 both days.  My thought is once you get it hot, and start running the curves hard with hills to add additional load is what was the cause.  Oil is sloshing all round doing the curves.

I do not know.  I keep hearing stock will sump.  I have 9K on mine, and its rode hard, but not abused.  Stock except head pipe, mufflers and tune.

just go  out and run two lane roads and run in sixth gear and start passing cars  rolling on the throttle in sixth and slowing down for other slow traffic that is slow. keep it up  for a few minutes and if you get a place  where you feel safe run the bike up to 90 or so a few times passing a couple cars .  won't be long you will discover what sumping is,  often times . not all bikes are equal  and no you do not have to be the so called rider that is the problem.  that is the biggest lie some people spew cause they live I denial and have no clue of facts or will not admit the facts. or get paid to try to deceive.
 

[happyman]

Here's how I come to the conclusion that I can make any M8 sump. Its a set of riding situations and temps that has taken awhile to figure out. I never did it exactly on the stock 114 form and wished I had. I have a 25 mile loop I enjoy riding. Its a combination of nice twisties with steep inclines, sweeping turns around a reservoir, then 10 miles on an interstate and than more twisty back roads back to my house. Last night I road that loop 2 times ...easy.....and the bike felt terrific. No signs of power loss or overheating. I regularly checked the radiator fans to see if they were running and the engine was cool, no issues and I was smiling as the ride felt great. At the last minute I figured I would do a third loop.

5 miles into the 3rd loop, the engine felt just "a hair off" the performance of the 1st 50 miles but I figured it was my imagination and my sensitivity to the the previous sumped engines. So I kept riding, nothing radical, just enjoying the curves. On the Interstate, I was doing 80-85mph with the traffic flow before the exit to the final 15 miles of backroads. The throttle response slowly got worse and worse. At every stop sign the fans were blowing where they weren't on the first 50 miles. Within 5-10 miles of my house the throttle response went to nothing. I could roll the throttle and it would barely accelerate. Engine was screaming hot.

I pulled it into my garage on level ground and let it idle for 2 mins. I shut it down and pulled the dipstick. Very bad burnt oil smell which you could smell throughout the garage. Where it had been perfectly full when I left, it was now 5-6 rows of dots low on oil, which is more than a quart low in less than 250miles. Even crazier, I let it sit overnight to cool down. Pulled the dipstick this morning and the oil was in the same place I left it last night but you could still smell the burnt oil on the dipstick. I turned the engine on and let it idle for 2 mins per SB1450 on the kickstand. I turned the engine off. The oil FELL from 5-6 rows of dots low on the dipstick to BELOW the add mark. Serious problem if your oil can DROP to below "add" in just 2 mins of idling on the kickstand. Obviously the latest model oil pump was not returning the oil from the crankcase to the pan at the same rate it was being pumped to the top end.

My view is its really just a matter of time. A stock bike might take 4-5 of those loops, maybe more but eventually sumping would show its ugly head. That's just my opinion based on my experience with 3 sumping engines. Its all a matter of time, load & temps.

   
have to say I am waiting for  prolly at a minimum of 6 motors as I type this I am truly fed up to the teeth. my bike has been sitting for longer than your bike. have no clue when    I may get it back it is a 17 ST. Glide  CVO  nothing but a disappointment to put it plain and simple I would never ever even try to take a  nice road trip for a few days you not going to make it ever  no matter what.    you think for aa couple rides yes this is feeling nice and they all of a sudden  your calling a tow.  yup  made it 158 mile since last visit at the dealer,     waiting roadside for bout three hours  in the near ninty   heat.  its not funny  and I am not  a kid.    p'od  is what  you get  when you see this bs .   sad situation  hope they get it right real soon. a lot of dealerships are counting on  a fix and happy customers / cannot blame them for sure. have had the tech  there on occasions and even met with him .   decent guy but that did not cure the problems .  my bike puked a couple cam bolts early on  and there is or was reason for this too because of screw up  right out of the box.    the bike has been in the shop at a minimun of 11 times ,   ya have to wonder   WTF is going on

 

[happyman]

Yeah, I followed your “saga”. Sorry to hear the path you’ve been on. Can’t blame your decision-making at all. I’m hopeful my situation is different because the engine has not only the latest oil pump with HD supervision on the install, but they also built the Stage IV with “one-off” components that came straight from Engineering.

Will it prevent sumping, I won’t trust it till I’ve got 500+ miles. I’m confident once I get through break-in that I can induce sumping if the engine is susceptible. Time and miles will tell but these first 150 miles leave me optimistic for the time being.

my motor was built as a one of  four out there  and it dies in the dirt.   also been waiting for  case for a couple weeks , amazed heatwave gets his back so soon. my bike was in shop the 1st of the month  was sumping to beat hell said it was good. that's the factory tech .  and it was already junk took it home  week  later took it back again and its been down ever since  this is a huge beast of f burden and all you get is more of the same , and no real compensation. lots of canceled plans and frustration and a huge pile of  $$$ involved in the back and forth.  its pitiful  to spend all this  $$ and get  nothing in return   .