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[BIKER77]

I have a question, for anyone to answer. If I do the air cleaner, and pipes, and am thinking about going with the power commander, or the S/E program, will I still need to have the upgrade chip installed? I know that if I do the upgrades, and was not going to install the P/C or the S/E, I would need to install the chip. Does anyone know?

[Blackdog]

Using either the PC or the Race Tuner DOES NOT require a chip upgrade.

[flhrsei2_gret's_is for sale]

Ask goldiron3... he set up flhrsei-2_for_sale...

He had the info. loaded into the bike, had the air flow and pipes added, meets all 50 states limits.

[flhrsei2_gret's_is for sale]

The chip upgrade allows for more air through engine, more torque in certain situations...as you mentioned?  And, the chip upgrade, with the air flow, pipes redone, is covered by warranty - but - depending upon the pipes put on, too, right? So, what pipes were put on "the bike", Mike?

The p.c. and the race tuner don't need the chip upgrade? This won't be covered by warranty - what is it about the race tuner that will take away from the warranty? Work on heads? Changing out parameters of original design?

You have all the answers, Mike...

[jbserk]

Have the SE Breather, Rinehart Duals, HD Race Tuner Kit...   Warranty just fine...  7 years and NOT null.  Thought you might want a different experience than posted earlier.  Thanks.

[hatchetjak]

I spent about four hours today running the control wires inside the handlebars. I hadn't ever done this to any bike I've owned before, because it never seemed worth the trouble. I thought this ride deserved it....looks great.  

[JCZ]

The Power Commander or the HD Race Tuner does not void the warranty unless the damage (problem) is/was directly related to the PC or the HD RT (see the Magnusen Moss Warranty Act).

[jbserk]

If you travel away from your home town and have a problem, and if the HD knows you need work and can't get home without it, they may deny your warranty if you have either the RT kit or the PC installed.  This is just their way of saying 'Thank you for your paying business'.  It IS at the discretion of individual dealers so you know they want to make the bigger "cash" buck if they can.  There is no sentiment in business.   Doesn't it suck that HD can't have a consistent policy across dealerships?  First they suck you in by telling you they want you to be happy with aftermarket performance addons (and by the way "EVERYBODY" does it), then they throw you out on the road to be screwed by their colleagues!  Nice business, huh?

[JCZ]

John the failure/damage has to be directly attributed to the modification part in order for the warranty to be void.  It's not discreationary.....it's federal law that applys to all motor vehicles.

HD does not govern or manage the franchise dealerships, they are just franchises.  They also do not have the power or authority to overide the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act.  All consumers in America that drive a motor vehicle should educate theirself to this act.

Dealerships attitude (policy?) is set by the owner or the manager of the shop.  They can claim that it (the failure or damage) was directly due to a modification that you've made and make a decision based on their "opnion".  You can take a stand on it and contest it by taking it to another dealership or shop and get it documented that what they thought caused the damage, had no direct relation to the damage.  Or, you can pay the same dealership to go ahead and do the work and then file a claim to recover your expenses.  

I first saw this used with our trucks (the Harley truck that is Supercharged and then modified, even more)  Ford denied a claim on a rod being thrown in a motor that was heavily modded.  The guy picked his truck and motor up, took it to an independent shop and the disassembled the motor and showed where the nuts were not torqued and that was what caused the rod to be thrown.  He had his attorney draft the letter ($50 which he also collected from Ford) and they put a new motor in his truck and paid the bill at the independent shop.

Fast forward to this past summer a partner of mine took his bike to a popular dealership right outside of Sacramento.  Simular situation, they denied the warranty claim and said the problem caused further insuing damage that also would not be covered.  He took it to another dealership and they said "it's covered, non of your mods have any effect on the damaged area".  They still refused to pay or make it right in any way.  He filed a claim under the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act with the Beareu of Automotive Repair (BAR) here in Sacramento.  They investigated and ruled in his favor.  He got back the money that the first dealership had charged him to diagnose plus the money to repair all the problems that were generated from the original problem, at the second shop.

So, you might have to fight for your rights but you should always make and educated decision by knowing what they are.

[JCZ]

Let me see if I can attach it here for all to view...............
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/guides/ftc/warranties/undermag.htm

The MMWA does not only apply to motor vehicles, it applys to anything with a warranty.  I was told that it was generated in the motor vehicle industry (if you don't use our brand of XXXXXXX it will void your warranty).  They can no longer tell you that you have to use their brand of oil, for instance.  You can use any brand, as long as it meets the specifications set forth by the manufacterur.  Generally speaking, all motor oils manufactured for gas burning cars meet the same specifications.

The same applys to a ECM or any other part on your bike.

[jbserk]

As the HD icon states on any of their product literature...

"Harley-Davidson has the engineering expertise, sophisticated dyno lab, and complete testing facilities to provide racing enthusiasts with a line of performance products designed to produce good, solid, reliable horsepower in their V-Twin engines and exceptional performance on the race track. Engine related performance parts are intended for the Experienced Rider only.

WARNING
Installation of Screamin' Eagle Products, and similar products from other manufacturers, except some street legal offerings installed by authorized Harley dealers, may affect your H-D limited vehicle warranty. See your dealer for more information."

So...  Does the "may" mean that they realize that they can't declare a warranty void?  What does their use of the word "affect" really mean.  It sounds like HD doesn't agree with the law.  I'm sure you know a lot about the law but many of my riding friends have been abandoned by HD in the desert because they had a crossed-flag icon part on their ride.  It apparently didn't help them to know the law at the time (they do).  You are proabably right about owner rights but does this keep HD dealers from charging for what should be warranty work?  Compare this to a business like Sears who replaced my chain saw 3 times and never did they even ask if I was running their two-stroke oil or stock (recommended) spark plug.  They just replaced it.  I think HD has some eithical issues to review and make a stronger message to their franchises that attempt to use the warranty issue as a sales opportunity.  Just my experience...  law or no law.  Thanks for the vent opportunity.  

[JCZ]

John I'd just suggest that those people would get further if they filed a claim under the MMWA.  And even then, they're not going to be able to collect on every claim.

But HD (and the individual dealers) like Ford or any other manufacturer would be a lot less quick to deny warranty issues if they thought they might have to go to court on it.  

Again, out here in Calif. (thousands of riders) I've never heard of a warranty claim being denied due to a PC or an HDRT.

The 103" motor in our bikes is warrantied from the factory but if you modify your 88" with the 103" parts it "may" void the warranty.  I'd say to that, that if I built an 88" motor into a 103" and HD denied me warranty work because of it, then we'd be in court.  Regardless of what their paperwork says, the MMWA is not negotiable.  

In other words, those parts are under warranty if we do the work......if we put it together and in the bike, but not if some other qualified mechanic does.

It may be an issue that I'm willing to push the envelope just a little further than the next guy is however, it has never been an issue for me.  And I have been in a few of those little country town dealerships in places like Missouri, Ariz, Montanna, etc. and it's just never been an issue due to the high flow air cleaner, Power Commander or Thunderheader.

Our dealership Service Manager says to me "how is another dealership going to prove that the failure was due to the PC or the HDRT?"  Exactly my thoughts.  So the question one would have to ask theirself is "am I going to lay down for this.....or am I willing to put the time and energy into fighting for my rights?"

[laylonlor]

If you travel away from your home town and have a problem, and if the HD knows you need work and can't get home without it, they may deny your warranty if you have either the RT kit or the PC installed.

[laylonlor]

i agree 100% on your quote on dec.27 2003 about harley's policy on there after market parts, they'll get your cash one way or another

[JCZ]

The dealerships are privately owned franchises and the policy is set by the owners and management of each dealership.

I've had a Race Tuner or Power Commander on my bikes for more than a few years (since Power Commander II came out) and I've had warranty work done at various dealerships here in northern California and the RT or PC never became an issue.    I've also had warranty work done in Springfield, Mossouri and up in Washington state (don't remember the dealership......too many weeks on the road at that point).

On the flip side, I've heard of some of the mom and pop type dealerships out in the middle of no where that make that kind of thing an issue.

The Magnusson Moss Warranty Act (I've posted it elsewhere on this site) states that the modicification has to be directly related to the failure or damage in order for the warranty to be voided.  You can have a dealership claim that it's related and your only recourse may be to pay now, then file civil action against that dealership.  If that happens......all the dealerships would quit playing games with this issue and get right about it.  Just my .02 worth guys.