Topic: Promise from Harley Davidson CEO (Read 8762 times)

Bill E · « **on:** October 29, 2020, 09:59:55 PM »

This is an article from Forbes magazine today. A lot of promises from CEO Zeitz.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrylight/2020/10/29/harley-davidson-adore-your-core/

I hope he’s being honest and that H-D starts putting out some top of the line cycles. For me though, after a life of Harley purchases (6 bikes and endless accessories), I’m done giving them my $ until they stop with the lip service and I see some proof they can get it together. I’ve already committed to a Triumph purchase and it will be added to my garage next week. Sorry Harley, but you did it to yourself.

mark · « **Reply #1 on:** October 29, 2020, 10:46:23 PM »

Again, no mention of quality improvement. Also, can anyone say there’s anything in the 2020 lineup that excites them? Several times I’ve traded for a new bike, not because I was ready to trade, but because a new model excited me.

iski · « **Reply #2 on:** October 29, 2020, 11:13:49 PM »

Several things HD could do - that their competition is already doing - that could sell more bikes. Things like auto shift, adjustable on the fly suspension, adjustable windshield, etc. Those are not the only new things out there already, but would give some riders reasons to buy new. HD is following not leading in innovations. But they have been lagging at that, their competition has moved ahead while they squandered R&D efforts on an electric bike so expensive it has a limited appeal - at best.

Wish them well, do not want to see HD fade away. Keeping core customers happy & loyal is not exactly a cutting edge business strategy. HD has taken existing customers for granted on issues such as quality control for a long time & if they can address that & play catch up to the competition, that would be a good sign. The new paint sets on the CVOs for example are nowhere near what they used to be & that no doubt has hurt sales. No bets on their actually accomplishing catch up innovations or improving QA reliability - at the present rate of sales decline HD will sell out to ?? & from there it will depend on what whoever their new owner is decides.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #3 on:** October 30, 2020, 01:25:01 AM »

More promises from a company that fails to deliver,....yup it's 2020 alright.

I'm keeping my Harley, but my next bike will be a GoldWing.

Cat Eye · « **Reply #4 on:** October 30, 2020, 04:54:32 AM »

i wish that they would have defined who their core customers are.

Harley’s perception of core costumers vs reality has always been a heated debate.

What do you think Harley’s core customers are:

Gender?

Age.

income?

education?

Miles driven a year?

Bill E · « **Reply #5 on:** October 30, 2020, 05:37:22 AM »

Good question... my guess is there are several types of customers that make up different “cores”. I’m a core customer, I guess. I’ve bought several new H-D bikes and have two that I’ll keep until I die. My 3 sons, ages 25-35, all have multiple bikes and say they are not ready for a Harley “yet“. I had no desire to get anything but another Harley, but as I began seriously shopping, I realized I had been loyal to H-D without return on their part by way of putting a bike out there that was as good as other manufacturers. I just decided, I’m not going to give them my hard earned $ because I feel taken advantage of. The attitude is because you love H-D, you will pay higher $ for a lesser bike. I love my Harley’s. I’ve been excited with each purchase I’ve made. However, this time around the more serious I became about the next Harley, the more I realized I don’t owe it to them just because... and I found another bike I think is better, I’ve become excited about it, and I’m getting it.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #6 on:** October 30, 2020, 07:02:56 AM »

I agree they should focus on what sells. if 11 models added together are only 6% for total sales that is fat that can go.

That said, focus on core customers does make sense. However they need to figure out what the core customer wants, and define the core customer.

I would think my wife and I fit core customers or the people they want to keep. Since 2009, between the two of us its been 15 new bikes, all but one touring bike. In that have been 7 CVO bikes. We each ride an average of 24,000 miles a year.

In these 11 years the quality has continued to go down. My 2019 CVO is horrible quality. I have had more warranty claims on it than my other six added together. Resale value has tanked on the bikes. The cost has continued to go up, the content on the bike has continued to go down. The same frame and suspension is still used from 2009. Head unit has been improved twice but still has lots of issues, blown speakers and not working as designed. New motor is very nice, but had major issues for 3 years. Suspension was at best ok compared to others brands in 2009. Today it is plain garbage compared to other brands.

Suspension for example, add Ohlin HD-259 rear shocks, 13" and Legend Axio front cartridges to a touring bike, my 13 King. About 1800 dollars in upgrades and the bone stock Indian challenger rides better, handles better, for less money.....Not going to mention how much better the Goldwing is

Harley needs to update, and improve its touring bikes, as they account for almost 2/3 the sales. They need to handle, they need good suspension but most of all they need quality and reliability. Especially when charging more than the companion.

ultrarider123 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 30, 2020, 07:18:32 AM »

Well, since Bill already opened that box, I'll chime in.

I've enjoyed, ridden, said some choice words over and had many, many enjoyable miles on the HD brand for the past 40 or so years. My last two HD's were CVOs. Ginger was probably one of my overall favorite Harleys and one Vickie still misses.

Most here know I've moved to another brand. I'm very happy with that move. It's not perfect but it is much more refined in ride, motor, infotainment and sound system and build quality/attention to detail. Harley can do that, too. There is nothing stopping either brand or any brand from working toward becoming the best in class in their class. What is stopping the MoCo, however, is pride, arrogance and animosity toward the very folks that keep them in business. Until that attitude changes within the company, nothing else attempted will succeed.

I've been asked a few times will I ever own another Harley Davidson? I don't say no but I do answer that currently, there is nothing for the past few years or, from what we can "see" for the near future that they do or will produce to move me back to them.

DOCGSS · « **Reply #8 on:** October 30, 2020, 10:44:22 AM »

I think from a business point of view Harley is on the right track. I do not believe that Harley's core customer base is merely looking for the best motorcycle period, if they were they would be buying only Goldwings or if reliability is the issue, Yamaha. Brand loyalty and purchase decisions are far more complex and emotional. My wife's 2018 Honda Oddesey van has had more recalls than all of the vehicles I have owned out together but she loves it. My BMW 440i I love and it has the third worse reliability record behind Fiat and Mercedes, BMW and MB enjoy incredible brand loyalty in spite if terrible reliability and high costs.

I own 3 motorcycles on of which is my 2020 HD SG CVO which I love and I have always had a HD in my stable. I think HD needs to make incremental changes to improve their bikes, so that they do not lose the HD character, if I wanted a Goldwing, and they are very impressive, I would have bought one, frame and suspension is where I think they should start. But in the end this repost is for the stockholders to whom they have a fiduciary responsibility, not to their customers. A lot of attitude change needs to happen there. Like warranty support instead or looking for a way not to honor it.

mark · « **Reply #9 on:** October 30, 2020, 11:02:17 AM »

This isn’t helping either...Indian reports third quarter sales up by 40%. HD sat on their butt, fat and happy, for too long. Indian has taken over flat track racing, just won first and third place at the King of the Baggers race at Laguna Seca, have introduced three water-cooled models, and their most recent bike, the Challenger, is basically a sport bike disguised as a bagger. Meanwhile, HD hasn’t upgraded or come out with anything new, except a $30k electric motorcycle that no one will buy.

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto/news/polaris-announces-40-higher-motorcycle-sales-in-third-quarter-41604045800388.html

Ironhorse · « **Reply #10 on:** October 30, 2020, 12:14:37 PM »

Quote from: Haird on October 30, 2020, 07:18:32 AM

There is nothing stopping either brand or any brand from working toward becoming the best in class in their class. What is stopping the MoCo, however, is pride, arrogance and animosity toward the very folks that keep them in business. Until that attitude changes within the company, nothing else attempted will succeed.

Spot on!

So what that says is that HD doesn't care to make the best motorcycle, they only care to make profits. And the best way to make profits is to keep the "core customers" coming back with promises and bling. Could they make "the best" motorcycle? Probably,....but they choose not to. Instead they build a "good enough" motorcycle, as in "this is good enough for the core customers". Let's not beguile ourselves, the top of the line CVO with the biggest engine is still slower compared to the stock Honda GoldWing or Kawasaki Concours. So let's ask ourselves, is that by design? We don't know. What we do know is that HD has had every opportunity to design and build something that should be able to at least keep up with the Japanese imports in performance and dependability. The question is, why haven't they? And what does it say about us who know this, and still buy the new Harleys?

I'm all for brand loyalty, as long as the brand is loyal to the buyer. And the best way to show that is by making a better and more dependable product at a reasonable price. This is 2020, folks are tired of hearing lies and promises and getting nothing in return but the same old thing or worse.

But I could be wrong.

charles05663 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2020, 12:36:09 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on October 30, 2020, 12:14:37 PM

Spot on!

So what that says is that HD doesn't care to make the best motorcycle, they only care to make profits. And the best way to make profits is to keep the "core customers" coming back with promises and bling. Could they make "the best" motorcycle? Probably,....but they choose not to. Instead they build a "good enough" motorcycle, as in "this is good enough for the core customers". Let's not beguile ourselves, the top of the line CVO with the biggest engine is still slower compared to the stock Honda GoldWing or Kawasaki Concours. So let's ask ourselves, is that by design? We don't know. What we do know is that HD has had every opportunity to design and build something that should be able to at least keep up with the Japanese imports in performance and dependability. The question is, why haven't they? And what does it say about us who know this, and still buy the new Harleys?

I'm all for brand loyalty, as long as the brand is loyal to the buyer. And the best way to show that is by making a better and more dependable product at a reasonable price. This is 2020, folks are tired of hearing lies and promises and getting nothing in return but the same old thing or worse.

But I could be wrong.

I suspect that is by design. This way they don't eat into their upgrades. I want a faster/bigger motor. That is great. Here is a $4000 upgrade that will give you the power you are looking for. Oh, and if it breaks, it is your fault.

Sadly, HD is mostly about selling upgrades and accessories. It is a big part of their strategy.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2020, 12:55:29 PM »

Quote from: charles05663 on October 30, 2020, 12:36:09 PM

Sadly, HD is mostly about selling upgrades and accessories. It is a big part of their strategy.

It's gotta be. Over on the Honda GoldWing and Kawasaki Concours sites when they want to add performance it's usually exhaust and an ecm flash, that's it. You don't see them tearing engines apart for heads, cams, throttle body injectors and all the "might as well" changes like lifters, cam plate, cam bearings, push rods, valve springs, oil pump, tensioners and exhaust.

Once again, HD looks at their core customers and think, "These guys just spent $35k on a motorcycle, I bet we can convince them to spend $4k more on performance upgrades". Now how is that being loyal to the core customer? Is that taking care of the people who got you there, or sticking it to them?

RivRaptor · « **Reply #13 on:** October 30, 2020, 01:14:32 PM »

A quote from the article, could someone please explain, "As reported by the Wall Street Journal, HD (Delivered on its strategy) Mr. Zeitz's strategy of shoring up the core customer base led HD to a profit surge in the 3rd Q of 2020. Focusing on Core customers pays off."

Huh? What? Is he referring to layoffs and closings or dropping some models? Or are there some new & improved bikes out I don't know about? Better replacement parts for existing bikes (rotors one example) I missed? I'm confused-(Heavy dose of sarcasm inserted here!). Isn't it a little early to be tooting his horn?

muddypaws · « **Reply #14 on:** October 30, 2020, 03:43:40 PM »

Three years ago I sent a letter to the old CEO about the water in the gauges. They blew me off saying that is the way they are designed to breath. So today I sent the new CEO a letter to see what his thoughts are. He said it takes 3-4 more times of effort to keep a buyer. I purchased 8 Harley's in the past 25 years and 5 were CVO's. I'm really looking at the Indians.

iski · « **Reply #15 on:** October 30, 2020, 05:55:53 PM »

Quote from: muddypaws on October 30, 2020, 03:43:40 PM

Three years ago I sent a letter to the old CEO about the water in the gauges. They blew me off saying that is the way they are designed to breath. So today I sent the new CEO a letter to see what his thoughts are. He said it takes 3-4 more times of effort to keep a buyer. I purchased 8 Harley's in the past 25 years and 5 were CVO's. I'm really looking at the Indians.

That's the problem HD has with the loyalty issue - a lot of HD owners looking for new rides are not looking at HD because of HD business practices, well known bike problems that they ignore, bike lineup, etc.

A couple of my long time HD rider friends are looking at new BMWs & Goldwings. HD is not a consideration for them, which says a lot since they have been HD only owners for years.

WildClyde · « **Reply #16 on:** October 30, 2020, 07:27:16 PM »

Quote

if 11 models added together are only 6% for total sales that is fat that can go.

Any guesses as to which of the 34 2020 models listed on the https://www.harley-davidson.com web site are the designated 11? Are there sales numbers publically available?

Street (6)
   • Harley-Davidson Street® 750
   • Street Rod®
   • Iron 883™
   • Iron 1200™
   • Forty-Eight®
   • Roadster™

Electric (1)
   • Livewire®

Cruiser (11)
   • Softail® Standard
   • Street Bob®
   • Low Rider®
   • Softail Slim®
   • Low Rider® S
   • Deluxe
   • Sport Glide™
   • Fat Bob® 114
   • FXDR™ 114
   • Breakout®
   • Fat Boy® 114

Touring (13)
   • Electra Glide® Standard
   • Heritage Classic
   • Road King®
   • Road Glide®
   • Street Glide®
   • Road King® Special
   • Road Glide® Special
   • Street Glide® Special
   • Road Glide® Limited
   • Ultra Limited
   • CVO™ Street Glide®
   • CVO™ Road Glide®
   • CVO™ Limited

Trike (3)
   • Freewheeler®
   • Tri Glide® Ultra
   • CVO™ Tri Glide®

Twolanerider · « **Reply #17 on:** October 30, 2020, 07:52:29 PM »

Harley as a designer is given (or takes) too much credit for ostensibly having so many different "models" to begin with. They've got Sportsters, the Touring group, Softails, and the Trikes. Everything else is just different trim packages. Chevy makes the Camaro; and several trim variants thereof. Harley is not different in that regard. The radical change in pulling models is not that radical nor that significant of a change. They're just dropping some trim or cladding packages.

ultra13 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2020, 11:57:17 PM »

I agree that there are too many models out there. When I started riding Harleys back in 2001 I could name every model including their alfa codes. Not so much now... I hope things get turned around. I will always ride HD though...

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #19 on:** October 31, 2020, 06:58:46 AM »

[quote author=DOCGSS link=topic=122035.msg1520391#msg1520391 date=1604069062

I own 3 motorcycles on of which is my 2020 HD SG CVO which I love and I have always had a HD in my stable. I think HD needs to make incremental changes to improve their bikes, so that they do not lose the HD character, if I wanted a Goldwing, and they are very impressive, I would have bought one, frame and suspension is where I think they should start. But in the end this repost is for the stockholders to whom they have a fiduciary responsibility, not to their customers. A lot of attitude change needs to happen there. Like warranty support instead or looking for a way not to honor it.
[/quote]
If they would put more effort into quality, they would not have to look for ways to to not honor warranty.

Step one the make the spec looser once they have several claims. Examples are crank shaft run out, an now for me Front Rotors. First two set were bad with a 4 thousands run out. Now the spec for run out is 8 thousandths. I have put one new front tire on my 2019. I am waiting for the 5th new set of front rotors to show up at dealer.. I have been waiting 3 months now for new rotors. Another set would have failed in this time frame.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #20 on:** October 31, 2020, 07:02:12 AM »

Quote from: muddypaws on October 30, 2020, 03:43:40 PM

Three years ago I sent a letter to the old CEO about the water in the gauges. They blew me off saying that is the way they are designed to breath. So today I sent the new CEO a letter to see what his thoughts are. He said it takes 3-4 more times of effort to keep a buyer. I purchased 8 Harley's in the past 25 years and 5 were CVO's. I'm really looking at the Indians.

Part of quality I am talking about. This issue dates back more years than I can count. I know my last 4 CVO's have had gages replaced due to water in them, including my 2019.

Speakers are another high replacement item, done on my last four bikes several times..

Honestly. Harley counts on owners who do not ride much. If you only ride 2500 miles a year, your rotors will fail after warranty is up. Your gages will get water in them after warranty is up. On the 110 the lifters fail after warranty is up. The list goes on. I've had two 110 bikes were lifters failed inside factory warranty, one got a new engine. But HD knows thats not the norm.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2020, 07:34:11 AM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on October 31, 2020, 07:02:12 AM

My last 4 CVO's have had gages replaced due to water in them.

That's a perfect example of failing at customer loyalty. HD had decades to fix this issue and didn't, but they are happy to take our money. And that's just gauges, let's talk about stators, compensators, lifters,......etc. But I'm preaching to the choir on this site, The question is, why do we keep coming back and taking it? At some point a pretty face is just that, a pretty face.

I can see why folks are jumping to Indian, Honda, and BMW.

OBB · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2020, 09:04:42 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on October 30, 2020, 12:55:29 PM

It's gotta be. Over on the Honda GoldWing and Kawasaki Concours sites when they want to add performance it's usually exhaust and an ecm flash, that's it. You don't see them tearing engines apart for heads, cams, throttle body injectors and all the "might as well" changes like lifters, cam plate, cam bearings, push rods, valve springs, oil pump, tensioners and exhaust.

Once again, HD looks at their core customers and think, "These guys just spent $35k on a motorcycle, I bet we can convince them to spend $4k more on performance upgrades". Now how is that being loyal to the core customer? Is that taking care of the people who got you there, or sticking it to them?

Helluva lot easier to achieve that on a full blown liquid cooled bike.

Yeah, HD needs to step it up in a lot of places. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my '15 at this point. Love the bike. Can't trust it for traveling without a warranty which expires in Dec. I can renew it but with two bikes now, it won't be getting the miles it normally does. Hate the thought of even having to keep a warranty on it for piece of mind. Might be time to move on from that bike.

Bill E · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2020, 12:24:17 PM »

I am keeping my Harley’s, but I just purchased a Triump R3 GT

dayne66 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2020, 01:21:33 PM »

I have bud's with non-CVO bikes that have been very reliable ( well over 100,000 kms with only regular maint).......seems to me that I got to pay a lot more for a CVO that isn't nearly as reliable as a run-of-the-mill bike. This time I'm getting a regular RG Limited.....and hope it's better

HOGMIKE · « **Reply #25 on:** October 31, 2020, 03:30:30 PM »

My latest cvo is a 19 limited.
It will be my last NEW Harley.
My old 2000 softail has 3 times the mileage and very few problems over the years.
My 19 has been in the shop for multiple issues (saddle bag lock not working again, third time).
Complete rear wheel, swing arm, and all related hardware. Not the only issues, but y’all get the message!
Not calling out to me for a $40k bike.
None of my cvo’s have been trouble free.
Sorry H-D, you lost another customer due to poor QC and poor customer support.

JMHO

Yellow09SERG · « **Reply #26 on:** October 31, 2020, 08:33:40 PM »

What Harley's core customers have became are people like us. We probably own a older bike, and have bought a toolbox full of tools, and kmow the aftermarket part number to replace whatever breaks. I am one of those core customers. 100,000 on my 09 and see no new bike in.my future. Why? Because I finally got this one somewhat to what it should have been in 09. She should be good for another 100,000 now

Cat Eye · « **Reply #27 on:** November 01, 2020, 11:45:26 AM »

I have been hoping that HD would change their business model to offer MTO (Made to Order) motorcycle-. That would be a game changer.

This would allow you to order your bike with the options you want. HD would have a higher profit margin/ motorcycle and the customer would not have to purchase parts twice...meaning less take-off parts.

Fired00d · « **Reply #28 on:** November 01, 2020, 02:49:35 PM »

Quote from: Cat Eye on November 01, 2020, 11:45:26 AM

I have been hoping that HD would change their business model to offer MTO (Made to Order) motorcycle-. That would be a game changer.

This would allow you to order your bike with the options you want. HD would have a higher profit margin/ motorcycle and the customer would not have to purchase parts twice...meaning less take-off parts.

Not sure MTO would be more of a profit margin than purchasing the bike and spending additional money on P&A. P&A and motorclothes are probably their biggest money maker currently w/bike sales being down.

Ride Safe,
Fired00d

sadunbar · « **Reply #29 on:** November 01, 2020, 04:14:20 PM »

I was on the two year plan, maybe three years between new bikes for decades. When Harley came out with the CVO, it was all I bought. Six of them over the years - until I purchased a 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic. That was it for me. Almost hard to describe all the issues with this bike. And I had them all. Head gaskets, compensators, lifters lead the list. I couldn't even tell you how many times I have replaced the compensator or lifters. My 2000 FXR runs like a champ and is 100% trouble free. My 2007 SEUC, well I just limit the miles I put on it, and maintain it as necessary. I don't know if I will ever buy another motorcycle. I know I'll never buy a new Harley, and I know I'll never buy a used Harley from a dealer. Harley will not get another dime from me. I wouldn't rule out an older used Harley if I saw something interesting. Maybe a red flames 2002 CVO Road King? I was the dream Harley customer, until they abandoned quality and abandoned customer service. They would have been money ahead to take care of me as a customer, but they chose not to. But it's a game where the customer holds the ultimate power. I am quite certain I am not alone in my decision....

Eqcons · « **Reply #30 on:** November 02, 2020, 06:19:37 AM »

Quote from: sadunbar on November 01, 2020, 04:14:20 PM

I was on the two year plan, maybe three years between new bikes for decades. When Harley came out with the CVO, it was all I bought. Six of them over the years - until I purchased a 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic. That was it for me. Almost hard to describe all the issues with this bike. And I had them all. Head gaskets, compensators, lifters lead the list. I couldn't even tell you how many times I have replaced the compensator or lifters. My 2000 FXR runs like a champ and is 100% trouble free. My 2007 SEUC, well I just limit the miles I put on it, and maintain it as necessary. I don't know if I will ever buy another motorcycle. I know I'll never buy a new Harley, and I know I'll never buy a used Harley from a dealer. Harley will not get another dime from me. I wouldn't rule out an older used Harley if I saw something interesting. Maybe a red flames 2002 CVO Road King? I was the dream Harley customer, until they abandoned quality and abandoned customer service. They would have been money ahead to take care of me as a customer, but they chose not to. But it's a game where the customer holds the ultimate power. I am quite certain I am not alone in my decision....

I'll probably never buy another either. Seven Harleys in 13 years, and we're at almost 20 years now, still on my '14. I'd love some of the features on the current FLHTKSE, but I won't buy one. So many things have been removed, but the price goes up and up. I won't pay that much for one.

The real killer? Wondering when it will break. If it breaks, how much to fix. The uncertainty of reliability spoils all the enjoyment. Listening to the motor constantly and wondering "Hmmm what's that noise?" For the same price, I could buy a pretty fully loaded BMW car, and not have the same worries to spoil the pleasure of owning and driving it.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #31 on:** November 02, 2020, 07:19:51 AM »

Quote from: Eqcons on November 02, 2020, 06:19:37 AM

The uncertainty of reliability spoils all the enjoyment. Listening to the motor constantly and wondering "Hmmm what's that noise?"

That's what's driving most of us to other brands of motorcycle. Breaking down on a road trip in the middle of a National Park, who wants that aggravation? And here's the thing, most of the breakdowns that occur have a known history across all models, and HD has still refused to address them properly.

If you bought a new truck and it had the SAME issues that the same truck from 2007 had, would you put up with it? You'd probably swear off that brand and start looking at other trucks. That's where we are today.

Threephase · « **Reply #32 on:** November 02, 2020, 09:36:40 AM »

Here
Are
Really
Lousy
Engine
Years

—————————— fill in the blank...

Chief2505 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 02, 2020, 04:58:27 PM »

Quote from: sadunbar on November 01, 2020, 04:14:20 PM

I was on the two year plan, maybe three years between new bikes for decades. When Harley came out with the CVO, it was all I bought. Six of them over the years - until I purchased a 2007 Screamin Eagle Ultra Classic. That was it for me. Almost hard to describe all the issues with this bike. And I had them all. Head gaskets, compensators, lifters lead the list. I couldn't even tell you how many times I have replaced the compensator or lifters. My 2000 FXR runs like a champ and is 100% trouble free. My 2007 SEUC, well I just limit the miles I put on it, and maintain it as necessary. I don't know if I will ever buy another motorcycle. I know I'll never buy a new Harley, and I know I'll never buy a used Harley from a dealer. Harley will not get another dime from me. I wouldn't rule out an older used Harley if I saw something interesting. Maybe a red flames 2002 CVO Road King? I was the dream Harley customer, until they abandoned quality and abandoned customer service. They would have been money ahead to take care of me as a customer, but they chose not to. But it's a game where the customer holds the ultimate power. I am quite certain I am not alone in my decision....

I was on the 4 year plan, a new HD every four years and I had two of them until 2012 when that bike alone in the first 3 months had more warranty failures than the other 6 new HD's combined had. HD refused to fix anything and like an idiot I traded that 2012 bike on a 13 CVO. I should have jumped ship at that time. MY dealer dumped me because I gave them a terrible review with HD which they deserved. The mechanic said my bike was not right yet HD and the dealer both refused to fix anything. That mechanic did not last long at the dealership.

A few months after I traded the junk 2012 for the 13 I was at the dealer and the sales guy says the person that bought your 2012 is loving it! We had to do some work to it to get it running correctly but man he loves it! I set down the $500 worth of accessories I had in my hands, told the salesman that I was always told there was nothing wrong with the bike. And that is why I will not be back in this dealership. I proceeded to walk out and have not been back.

Between the dealership not standing by the machine they sold and the company denying there was anything wrong with the machine they lost what was a very loyal customer that bought way too many t shirts and other stuff over the years.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #34 on:** November 03, 2020, 05:16:50 AM »

Over on another thread a member mentioned that he replaces lifters every 6-8k miles. It’s part of regular service like an oil change.

Would we do that with any other vehicle? Would we take our truck and car in and ask for an oil change, new filter, and change all the lifters? No, we wouldn’t. Why should we accept this from HD? And it’s not like this is a new issue.

It’s the 70s all over again. Like the AMF days HD is turning a blind eye to quality control, but instead of selling us golf carts we get electric bikes.

ultrarider123 · « **Reply #35 on:** November 03, 2020, 06:53:55 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on November 03, 2020, 05:16:50 AM

It’s the 70s all over again. Like the AMF days HD is turning a blind eye to quality control, but instead of selling us golf carts we get electric bikes.

Ding, ding, ding, ding...we have a winner. I'll submit this for quote of the month.

You are right on the money, Mark.

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #36 on:** January 12, 2021, 01:55:19 AM »

Yep, all valid observations here...

A MonoShock Bagger is probably the only thing that would even get me to consider anything new from Harley

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #37 on:** January 12, 2021, 07:24:29 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on November 03, 2020, 05:16:50 AM

It’s the 70s all over again. Like the AMF days HD is turning a blind eye to quality control, but instead of selling us golf carts we get electric bikes.

With my 2019 CVO I sure agree. Fourth set of new rotors going on it this week. Rotors warp faster than I wear out a front or rear tire. Wont last 10K miles.

On my second replacement seat, look like they are very worn by 15K miles.

I could go on about quality issues with this bike, but to say more on this bike than the last 7 added together

Ironhorse · « **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2021, 08:09:38 AM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on January 12, 2021, 07:24:29 AM

With my 2019 CVO I sure agree. Fourth set of new rotors going on it this week. Rotors warp faster than I wear out a front or rear tire. Wont last 10K miles.

Have you tried softer pads? I know that's a Band-Aid and not a solution, but it's cheaper than new rotors every 10K.

Mikey · « **Reply #39 on:** January 12, 2021, 01:09:08 PM »

Imagine buying a new bike and no mention of extended warranty options. Then going in the service department and asking about the extended warranty plan. The service manager says, " save your money not needed." We only work on bikes 7 years old and we don't see these bikes except for oil changes and tires. That is the competition Harley is facing. Good luck on growing sales to new customers.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #40 on:** January 13, 2021, 07:11:16 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on January 12, 2021, 08:09:38 AM

Have you tried softer pads? I know that's a Band-Aid and not a solution, but it's cheaper than new rotors every 10K.

No, this is how the bike came stock. So far all under warranty. Pretty sure its just crappy rotors. Many others having same issues, but only this style rotor.

SDCVO · « **Reply #41 on:** January 14, 2021, 12:06:30 AM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on January 13, 2021, 07:11:16 AM

No, this is how the bike came stock. So far all under warranty. Pretty sure its just crappy rotors. Many others having same issues, but only this style rotor.

tomorrow they are installing my 4th pair as well. This one under ESP so have coverage for a while

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #42 on:** January 14, 2021, 07:03:11 AM »

Quote from: SDCVO on January 14, 2021, 12:06:30 AM

tomorrow they are installing my 4th pair as well. This one under ESP so have coverage for a while

Seems its only the Mako and the Red/Gray 1 that have the issue, they use the same rotor. The silver gray 1 doesn't have the black on its rotor.

Crappy you can not get 10K miles out of a rotor, heck all my other bikes have gone 45K plus on original rotors, wife's 09 heritage has over 100K miles on original rotors.

mark · « **Reply #43 on:** January 15, 2021, 08:56:04 PM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on January 14, 2021, 07:03:11 AM

Seems its only the Mako and the Red/Gray 1 that have the issue, they use the same rotor. The silver gray 1 doesn't have the black on its rotor.

Crappy you can not get 10K miles out of a rotor, heck all my other bikes have gone 45K plus on original rotors, wife's 09 heritage has over 100K miles on original rotors.

Is there anyway to buy an aftermarket rotor and just pay the difference in cost?

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #44 on:** January 16, 2021, 08:44:26 AM »

Quote from: Mark on January 15, 2021, 08:56:04 PM

Is there anyway to buy an aftermarket rotor and just pay the difference in cost?

I wish there was.

I do believe my dealer will help me out when I have to go aftermarket though.

Para Bellum · « **Reply #45 on:** January 16, 2021, 08:42:18 PM »

Quote from: Mark on January 15, 2021, 08:56:04 PM

Is there anyway to buy an aftermarket rotor and just pay the difference in cost?

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on January 16, 2021, 08:44:26 AM

I wish there was.

I do believe my dealer will help me out when I have to go aftermarket though.

Don't know about your dealer, but in the past, some would. It relies on them accepting the replacement rotor and selling it later, while only charging you the difference in their cost.

Might be worth asking, since it saves you the labor cost + tax.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #46 on:** January 16, 2021, 11:50:57 PM »

Quote from: Para Bellum on January 16, 2021, 08:42:18 PM

Don't know about your dealer, but in the past, some would. It relies on them accepting the replacement rotor and selling it later, while only charging you the difference in their cost.

Might be worth asking, since it saves you the labor cost + tax.

This is everything in a nutshell. We willingly overpay for products we know to be inferior, then come up with work arounds to keep them on the road.

i cannot think of another high priced consumer product we would do this for.

Threephase · « **Reply #47 on:** January 17, 2021, 12:19:00 AM »

Unfortunately that is the way of the world nowadays.

For example,

I have men working for me that will do a task wrong, know that they did it wrong, and then have to fix it tomorrow (with me paying them to fix their mistake)

There is little pride in one’s work anymore. No wonder business’ want to automate/go robotic.

laylonlor · « **Reply #48 on:** January 29, 2021, 09:35:16 AM »

harley has us addicted, nothing ya can do , just keep your money coming to them , our quit riding (cold turkey), nothing else compares to them ,

what ya gonna do buy a gold wing ,lol ,we know there better but, your harley friends will talk chit about ya , lol

CVODON · « **Reply #49 on:** January 30, 2021, 08:16:32 PM »

Quote from: Eqcons on November 02, 2020, 06:19:37 AM

I'll probably never buy another either. Seven Harleys in 13 years, and we're at almost 20 years now, still on my '14. I'd love some of the features on the current FLHTKSE, but I won't buy one. So many things have been removed, but the price goes up and up. I won't pay that much for one.

The real killer? Wondering when it will break. If it breaks, how much to fix. The uncertainty of reliability spoils all the enjoyment. Listening to the motor constantly and wondering "Hmmm what's that noise?" For the same price, I could buy a pretty fully loaded BMW car, and not have the same worries to spoil the pleasure of owning and driving it.

Possibly you need to check out the BMW forums. They have problems aplenty. Some of the models between 2000-2010 are so bad that a simple trans failure repair costs will exceed value of the car.

Eqcons · « **Reply #50 on:** January 31, 2021, 06:58:01 AM »

Quote from: CVODON on January 30, 2021, 08:16:32 PM

Possibly you need to check out the BMW forums. They have problems aplenty. Some of the models between 2000-2010 are so bad that a simple trans failure repair costs will exceed value of the car.

I've owned two in that period, and though they were not completely problem free, I could at least rely on them to go for more than 10-15000 miles before the water pump failed, or the lifters gave up and ruined the engine.

It's really simple - the money that an FLH costs - CVO or not - is simply stupid. They are super-premium prices for a very sub-premium POS.

mark · « **Reply #51 on:** January 31, 2021, 10:05:55 AM »

2021 CVO Limited...$44,099. Add tax, registration, dealer BS, maybe a few accessories, etc., and you just burned thru $50k. IMO, that’s a shocking price. That’s the cost of two very good motorcycles, or a very nice truck or car.

Eqcons · « **Reply #52 on:** January 31, 2021, 01:39:45 PM »

Yes, for example:

"The Mustang GT – which has a V8 engine instead of the standard turbocharged four-cylinder – retails for $36,120, and the new-for-2021 Mustang Mach 1 carries a price of $51,270"

Author Topic: Promise from Harley Davidson CEO (Read 8762 times)

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