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[wolfman]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-09-03-harley-staying-milwaukee_N.htm

[Limited Lou]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-09-03-harley-staying-milwaukee_N.htm

I hope Harley allways stays in Milwaukee. That's where it belongs...

[Screamin]

I hope Harley allways stays in Milwaukee. That's where it belongs...

I agree Lou. It's tradition and in spite everything else the tradition is a big part of why I ride H.D. Lets hope this settles things for awhile.

[muddypaws]

Wait and see if the dumb ass union members vote for it. They will go on strike for 30 days for a thirty cent raise over two years and are to stupid to figure out they lost money.Just my opinion as I worked for Eastern Airlines and watched as the union destroyed the company.

[guppytrash]

Wait and see if the dumb ass union members vote for it. They will go on strike for 30 days for a thirty cent raise over two years and are to stupid to figure out they lost money.Just my opinion as I worked for Eastern Airlines and watched as the union destroyed the company.

I would beg to differ with you on that one...I would say Frank Lorenzo had plenty to do with that failure.  Just one example:  System 1-Eastern airlines computer reservation system sold to Continental airlines for $10 thousand then Continental was kind enough to rent its use back to Eastern for $5 million a year.  We wont even begin to talk about spare aircraft parts being shifted from Eastern to Continental.    
Cant say I love self serving unions like the one I belong to, but in the world of Greedy CEO's we live in, they are a necessary evil.
 
Can't say for sure the dollar values quoted are correct but I promise you the selling price was much less than the rental price.  
One last comment...Frank Lorenzo was banned from ever being involved in the operation of another U.S. airline.  
I will spare turning my wife loose on you, as she was also a Eastern airlines employee.  
Let me guess you worked in management.

[muddypaws]

No I was a mechanic. And I do believe the union was the down fall of Eastern. I also worked for Northwest Airlines and watched as the union employees dragged that company into the ground as they have done with every airline the unions have anything to do with. Can you tell I'm not a union person. Can't tell you what management did wrong as I was on the union side of the company's. 

[2wheelZEN]

It would really suck the year I can finally get a Harley of my Dreams they move out of Milwaukee(a big part of why I am getting one). If I don't get it by the 13th and the Union votes against, I may have to rethink and take my money elsewhere.  I do have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th choice and would save A LOT of money. Oh who am I kidding, I am still a GM guy(after taking a bath on the whole bankruptcy thing) but I am more likely to buy another brand than I ever was.
 
If they would just build the best damn bike money could buy, everyone would be happy...   yeah right

[Twolanerider]

"They" aren't in Milwaukee anyway.  Sure, corporate is.  And the fancy PR tourist crap is.  But only a small bit of the bikes come from the Milwaukee area.  So why is it that big a deal.  Production should stay domestic.  It would be wrong if Harley were not domestic production.  Beyond that I find it hard to get too worked up....

[2wheelZEN]

"They" aren't in Milwaukee anyway.  Sure, corporate is.  And the fancy PR tourist crap is.  But only a small bit of the bikes come from the Milwaukee area.  So why is it that big a deal.  Production should stay domestic.  It would be wrong if Harley were not domestic production.  Beyond that I find it hard to get too worked up....

I believe those 1340 employees would disagree with you. Harley is a big part of Milwaukee(Wisconsin for that matter). That probably wouldn't change, but sure would leave a bitter taste in a lot of mouths. You'll have to pardon me I am a Milwaukeean and take great pride in where I am from! Had friends and family that worked at the plant on Capital Drive.

[Twolanerider]

I believe those 1340 employees would disagree with you.

But that isn't what was being kvetched over.  The opinion that (to paraphrase) "it means a lot that my bike comes from Milwaukee" was being shared.  And they don't.  The bikes are much more "from" Kansas City or York than they are "from" Milwaukee.

That doesn't speak at all to the staff and employees in Wisconsin.  So don't put words in my mouth.  No one wants to see major job loss or even major employment shifts or relocations.  It's not just "unpleasant" or "unfortunate."  It's bad.  And it's lives altered dramatically.

Personally as a consumer so long as it's a domestic product I don't care where it comes from.  If, however, I choose between a company doing things differently within the country to keep production here rather than moving it overseas I'll keep it here.

MoCo is suffering from many self inflicted wounds right now.  It shouldn't be that they tap staff and employees to help recover from that.  But they have.  And they will again when they think they can.

[grc]

...
MoCo is suffering from many self inflicted wounds right now.  It shouldn't be that they tap staff and employees to help recover from that.  But they have.  And they will again when they think they can.

That's one of the things that fries me the most.  Management has thoroughly screwed the pooch, and the people who wind up paying the price are the customers, the dealers, and the lower level employees.  I don't see any top management or board members being thrown out on their ears, or even taking big pay reductions.  As long as they can lay it all off on someone else, like the employees and local governments, then they can just flounder along like GM did until someone finally says enough.  I don't think Uncle Sam is going to step up and bail out Harley, however.  So it's time for shareholders to insist the board of directors earn their pay and perks.  First order of business, throw the bums out and bring in some good management.


JMHO   -   Jerry

[Twolanerider]

I don't think Uncle Sam is going to step up and bail out Harley, however.  So it's time for shareholders to insist the board of directors earn their pay and perks.  First order of business, throw the bums out and bring in some good management.


JMHO   -   Jerry

Not a chance the Federal Government does some big bail out for a crippled Harley Davidson should it come to that.  Politically all the bail outs have become so unpopular (after the fact) that Congress wouldn't go along unless it was something too big to fail.  Something that would actually damage the national economy.  Without regard to what Harley might be to some here it's not that.  It's a boutique industrial unit compared to the national stage so it's on its own.

My crystal ball doesn't have more than .0005 run out so it can't focus on Harley.  So  no clue what to really expect from it.  I wish they'd follow some of the examples Ford has set.  Instead they seem intent, or at least content, to treat themselves the way Daimler treated Chrysler.  Arrogance, hubris, ignorance or just complacency?  No clue.  From the outside looking in to the perception they give us of the corporate window, however, it can only make you shake your head.

[Screamin]

OK guys. You've beaten the hell outta management. That's fine, I suppose. But, from where dost thou speak? We've heard the story of the CEO compensation. We've heard that the company is top heavy and refuses or is unable to break out of it's paradigm. I'm too lazy, and don't really know where, to look to see some comparative analysis to similar companies (successful and not so much). 

[2smoke]

Union members vote on the "Last, best, & final offer" tomorrow, 8/13/2010.  They are totally getting screwed!  Half the workforce will be seasonal or temps paid much lower wages and no benefits.  Keith Wandel will have destroyed the company and he will walk away with millions.  That's what happens when you hire a golfer to run a motorcycle company.  H-D quality will go down the tubes because you will have a workforce with no loyalty towards the company.  You cannot replace people that care about their product.  The best days of H-D are behind them.  At least I have one of the good bikes made when the workforce was dedicated to making a quality product they could be proud of. 

[harley56]

Union members vote on the "Last, best, & final offer" tomorrow, 8/13/2010.  They are totally getting screwed!  Half the workforce will be seasonal or temps paid much lower wages and no benefits.  Keith Wandel will have destroyed the company and he will walk away with millions.  That's what happens when you hire a golfer to run a motorcycle company.  H-D quality will go down the tubes because you will have a workforce with no loyalty towards the company.  You cannot replace people that care about their product.  The best days of H-D are behind them.  At least I have one of the good bikes made when the workforce was dedicated to making a quality product they could be proud of. 

It surprises me given that demand in some parts of the country is half of what it was a few years ago you seem to believe that downsizing to the right number of employees is getting "Screwed."  What's screwed is when they shut down the production of Sportsters for four months.  Could have used Sportsters in some places but contract agreement required calling back a bunch of non-line people because of seniority - nothing like bringing back forklift drivers so you can eventually get to the workers that assemble the motorcycles.  Keith Wandel is no nonsense and fighting alot harder for the profitability of this company than most could ever imagine.  It's difficult to continue employing people when there is no work for them.  Regardless of how Harley got to today's position, these moves are necessary for the survival of the company.

[wolfman]

http://www.wfrv.com/news/local/Harley-Davisson-workers-to-vote-on-job-and-wage-cuts-102760824.html

[2smoke]

At about 9:30am this morning Milwaukee Union workers voted on their new contract.  It was close but it passed.   

[FLSTFI Dave]

It surprises me given that demand in some parts of the country is half of what it was a few years ago you seem to believe that downsizing to the right number of employees is getting "Screwed."  What's screwed is when they shut down the production of Sportsters for four months.  Could have used Sportsters in some places but contract agreement required calling back a bunch of non-line people because of seniority - nothing like bringing back forklift drivers so you can eventually get to the workers that assemble the motorcycles.  Keith Wandel is no nonsense and fighting alot harder for the profitability of this company than most could ever imagine.  It's difficult to continue employing people when there is no work for them.  Regardless of how Harley got to today's position, these moves are necessary for the survival of the company.

I agree.  If you are building less bikes due to weak economy and weaker sales, then you need less people.  You should be able to bring back the ones you need, not just ones because of senority.

[grc]

I agree.  If you are building less bikes due to weak economy and weaker sales, then you need less people.  You should be able to bring back the ones you need, not just ones because of senority.

Yup, and in most cases that's exactly what you do.  If you need to run the Sportster line, you call back the people who man and support that line.  That might include folks with classifications such as forklift driver or line feeder, since someone has to move the parts from the warehouse or trucks to the assembly line,and remove the empty containers.  You don't just bring in 20 assemblers and tell them to go to it, every such operation requires support.  And don't forget the maintenance folks, the QC folks (assuming H-D actually has any), the folks who clean the bathrooms and the floors, etc.  It's supposed to be an organized process, not a free-for-all using the lowest possible number of people.

I've not read any of the actual contracts that H-D had, but if they followed normal conventions then employee recalls were most likely made by department and by classification using seniority.  But that doesn't mean, at least in any contract I've ever dealt with, that you bring in a senior material handling or maintenance person to fill a job screwing fenders on.  You bring in people with the appropriate classification in seniority order, and in this example that would be the senior assembler.  But you also have to bring in the agreed upon levels of support people, and as long as those agreed upon levels are reasonable and justifiable, I don't see the big deal.  Unless, of course, some of you expect the assembler to walk over to the warehouse or truck and dig out the parts he will need on his own, and on the way stop to fix a leaking water pipe and clean the bathroom.  Might slow things down just a tad, and create more than a few safety problems, but what the hey.  And btw, never forget that a contract has to be agreed to by both the union and management.  If the existing contracts were so odious, why did the overpaid and underqualified management agree to them?


Jerry

[FLSTFI Dave]

Yup, and in most cases that's exactly what you do.  If you need to run the Sportster line, you call back the people who man and support that line.  That might include folks with classifications such as forklift driver or line feeder, since someone has to move the parts from the warehouse or trucks to the assembly line,and remove the empty containers.  You don't just bring in 20 assemblers and tell them to go to it, every such operation requires support.  And don't forget the maintenance folks, the QC folks (assuming H-D actually has any), the folks who clean the bathrooms and the floors, etc.  It's supposed to be an organized process, not a free-for-all using the lowest possible number of people.

I've not read any of the actual contracts that H-D had, but if they followed normal conventions then employee recalls were most likely made by department and by classification using seniority.  But that doesn't mean, at least in any contract I've ever dealt with, that you bring in a senior material handling or maintenance person to fill a job screwing fenders on.  You bring in people with the appropriate classification in seniority order, and in this example that would be the senior assembler.  But you also have to bring in the agreed upon levels of support people, and as long as those agreed upon levels are reasonable and justifiable, I don't see the big deal.  Unless, of course, some of you expect the assembler to walk over to the warehouse or truck and dig out the parts he will need on his own, and on the way stop to fix a leaking water pipe and clean the bathroom.  Might slow things down just a tad, and create more than a few safety problems, but what the hey.  And btw, never forget that a contract has to be agreed to by both the union and management.  If the existing contracts were so odious, why did the overpaid and underqualified management agree to them?


Jerry

The contract was up and they needed to agree on a new contract, which is what they did.

Biggest problem with Union is the rigid job classification.  I know, I worked UAW for a couple years.  Then I went to a Japanese auto plant.  I saw real quickly why the Japanese were so much more efficient and cost effective.  Had nothing to do with the Wage or benefits, as my pay and benefits were almost identical.  Big difference was we did not need 9 crafts in maintenance.  The electricians could work on PLC's, Robots, lasers, instrumentation.  We also worked on pneumatics and what ever else needed fixed.  We were multi craft so our maintenance dept had less then half the people.  While in the UAW shop, I sat on my but unless it was a PLC problem.

[nidan]

Big business knows it can screw the workers in this economy , and still take multi million dollar bonuses.

It is an unfortunate situation we allow to exist.  Perhaps someday we can change it , but of course that would smack of socialism .. oh well.

[muddypaws]

Worked for two unions and hated them both.

[tazmun]

At Harley seniority rules. It doesn't matter what job you have, if you have more seniority, you get
to move to the next open job. It has NOTHING to do with SKILL & ABILITY! My friend lost his
machinist job at Harley, to a forklift driver, and he got bumped down to motor assembly,
WITH A PAY CUT. Oh, the forklift driver got a pay increase!

[FLSTFI Dave]

At Harley seniority rules. It doesn't matter what job you have, if you have more seniority, you get
to move to the next open job. It has NOTHING to do with SKILL & ABILITY! My friend lost his
machinist job at Harley, to a forklift driver, and he got bumped down to motor assembly,
WITH A PAY CUT. Oh, the forklift driver got a pay increase!

One of the biggest reasons I am not a Union fan.  Seniority, not skill and work ethic is what matters for a promotion or job switch.

I prefer where promotions and such come by merit, not seniority

[iski]

Maybe everybody already knows this so I'm just stating the obvious.  Maybe what I consider the obvious isn't obvious to anybody but me.  Anyway...the US & world economies are in "suck mode."  I did not need to watch a fancy biz cable channel economics show to know this - most all places as far as economies go are slower than they were a few years ago, except maybe for Pago Pago but not sure about that one really.  Soooooo....USA economy goes weak/flat/suck mode & so does most of the rest of the world.  People buy less crappola.  HD is part of the crappola they buy less of.  Sooooo...if people in the USA & worldwide are buying less crappola, HD must manufacture less crappola.  You do not NEED a HD bike to survive so it's not a basic need.  Some smart guy in this thread already referred to "boutique" industries.  (BTW - Do not let him know he is smart he is trouble enough already.)  

What the hell is the MoCo SUPPOSED to do?  Make an extra 100,000 bikes that there is NO MARKET (there was a few years ago but that is long gone) for - or scale back production, economize expenses & costs, and then try to stay afloat until or when mass quantities of folks want to buy mass quantities of their crapola again?  They made too damn many bikes a few years back & thought there was a goose that had laid a golden egg in their potential buyers bank accounts, and then it stopped laying eggs. It ain't coming back anytime soon, either. Factories that were added on to get scaled back & so do the folks who worked there.  It sucks but that is what happens when expansion goes faster than the economy will allow.  

The options that remain for them are to cut costs & would be willing to bet that administrative (Management) costs are being trimmed as well as line employee costs. For the past few generations the Management vs Union debates have raged long & longer with both sides getting more entrenched as time passed.  Management made some stupid deals that at the time must have not appeared to be stupid.  Then those managers get canned & new managers step in in the hope they can fix the eff ups of the previous management team.  One of the mgt. big eff ups was union bartered compensation for HD line workers.  

The alternative is to move manufacturing ops and/or assembly to Mexico or Someplace Else & then there would some corp. crew here in the USA doing their best to sell Rey del Camino y Deslizamientos del Camino motocicletas to a USA buying public whose initial response would be something like "What the hell?"

Could care less if the MoCo relocated to Daytona or San Diego for its HQ.  Would piss some Milwaukee folks off, but riding to the MoCo HQ would be a little less troublesome in the winter months & even downright pleasant.  Never been much of a purist in these matters, but do prefer to buy American & as long as HD is American made they will get more consideration from me than other bike brands that are not.

No surprise the union agreed to terms & figure the HD folks did not really want to move away since they just built a spiffy new museum there.  Will say one thing - for the 5 year anniversary homecomings the Milwaukee folks sure make you feel welcome.

[Screamin]

Maybe everybody already knows this so I'm just stating the obvious.  Maybe what I consider the obvious isn't obvious to anybody but me.  Anyway...the US & world economies are in "suck mode."  I did not need to watch a fancy biz cable channel economics show to know this - most all places as far as economies go are slower than they were a few years ago, except maybe for Pago Pago but not sure about that one really.  Soooooo....USA economy goes weak/flat/suck mode & so does most of the rest of the world.  People buy less crappola.  HD is part of the crappola they buy less of.  Sooooo...if people in the USA & worldwide are buying less crappola, HD must manufacture less crappola.  You do not NEED a HD bike to survive so it's not a basic need.  Some smart guy in this thread already referred to "boutique" industries.  (BTW - Do not let him know he is smart he is trouble enough already.)  

What the hell is the MoCo SUPPOSED to do?  Make an extra 100,000 bikes that there is NO MARKET (there was a few years ago but that is long gone) for - or scale back production, economize expenses & costs, and then try to stay afloat until or when mass quantities of folks want to buy mass quantities of their crapola again?  They made too damn many bikes a few years back & thought there was a goose that had laid a golden egg in their potential buyers bank accounts, and then it stopped laying eggs. It ain't coming back anytime soon, either. Factories that were added on to get scaled back & so do the folks who worked there.  It sucks but that is what happens when expansion goes faster than the economy will allow.  

The options that remain for them are to cut costs & would be willing to bet that administrative (Management) costs are being trimmed as well as line employee costs. For the past few generations the Management vs Union debates have raged long & longer with both sides getting more entrenched as time passed.  Management made some stupid deals that at the time must have not appeared to be stupid.  Then those managers get canned & new managers step in in the hope they can fix the eff ups of the previous management team.  One of the mgt. big eff ups was union bartered compensation for HD line workers.  

The alternative is to move manufacturing ops and/or assembly to Mexico or Someplace Else & then there would some corp. crew here in the USA doing their best to sell Rey del Camino y Deslizamientos del Camino motocicletas to a USA buying public whose initial response would be something like "What the hell?"

Could care less if the MoCo relocated to Daytona or San Diego for its HQ.  Would piss some Milwaukee folks off, but riding to the MoCo HQ would be a little less troublesome in the winter months & even downright pleasant.  Never been much of a purist in these matters, but do prefer to buy American & as long as HD is American made they will get more consideration from me than other bike brands that are not.

No surprise the union agreed to terms & figure the HD folks did not really want to move away since they just built a spiffy new museum there.  Will say one thing - for the 5 year anniversary homecomings the Milwaukee folks sure make you feel welcome.

Man O Man, that's a lot of typing. Miker told me you ran out of steam after 2 paragraphs. Anyway, agreed. They do throw a hell of a party every 5 years, even if they did have rocket man two parties back. Maybe the same folks that hired him negotiate labor contracts. 

[iski]

Man O Man, that's a lot of typing. Miker told me you ran out of steam after 2 paragraphs. Anyway, agreed. They do throw a hell of a party every 5 years, even if they did have rocket man two parties back. Maybe the same folks that hired him negotiate labor contracts. 

Some days I rant more than others.  Getting sort of old to hear about why employees are getting laid off when the USA economy is in the dumper for 2 years now & the folks who could make a difference are motivated to do the opposite by those who don't know better or do know better & do not care.

Yeah, the Capt. Fantastic hirers probably did negotiate the union deal.  Makes more sense than lots of other stuff.


Maybe the MoCo will do a Lady Gaga themed bike for 2012?

[Wild Card]

It surprises me given that demand in some parts of the country is half of what it was a few years ago you seem to believe that downsizing to the right number of employees is getting "Screwed."  What's screwed is when they shut down the production of Sportsters for four months.  Could have used Sportsters in some places but contract agreement required calling back a bunch of non-line people because of seniority - nothing like bringing back forklift drivers so you can eventually get to the workers that assemble the motorcycles.  Keith Wandel is no nonsense and fighting alot harder for the profitability of this company than most could ever imagine.  It's difficult to continue employing people when there is no work for them.  Regardless of how Harley got to today's position, these moves are necessary for the survival of the company.

Most intelligent comment.  

It's ironic that there is so much complaining about management and their compensation packages when companies owned by investors see these pay packages as a necessity to attrach talent to keep their company afloat.  I'd be willing to bet a handful of you bought Harley stock around 2004, so you know what I'm talking about.  Do you think a union member or leader could run Harley or would there be a conflict of interest?

Also, who do we think inflated Harley's income statement and bought a LOT of those bikes from 2003 - 2007?  Yep.  Let's not forget that motorcycles are a luxury item.  You can't compare these to cars and their situation.  Just like boats, their success or failure will ebb and flow with economic cycles much more than items deemed to be more necessary to people.  

[FLSTFI Dave]

To me it is pretty simple.

People are buying less bikes

So Harley is making less bikes, which makes sense why make what there is no market for.

To make less bikes, Harley needs less people, again makes sense.