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CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: longlast on October 06, 2020, 09:20:29 AM
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Some time back about 10k miles ago I had the discussion on here about using ATF Synthetic Lube in the primary
At the same time I installed a new upgrad SE compensator and the Hayden M6 primary chain tensioner.
Now I'm doing the bikes 30k oil change so I thought I'd show how the primary is fairing out with the ATF fluid, I'm not attempting to promote the use of said fluid just showing how it works for me.
There was nothing on the drain plug just clutch muck. :)
The compensator is showing no signs of wear. 10k mi
The Hayden tensioner has very minimal wear (break in wear marks) 10k mi
The shifting of gears good and just a tap of my heel shift from first and it's in "N"
No visible evidence of wear :)
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Tensioner well happy with :)
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Will open again at 40k
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ATF is standard practice here, and has been for years. Never had a problem.
Non synthetic for stock clutches, and synthetic for Carbonite plate clutches.
John
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ATF is standard practice here, and has been for years. Never had a problem.
Non synthetic for stock clutches, and synthetic for Carbonite plate clutches.
John
Do you still do a 5k change or do you run longer using the ATF between changes?
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I used to run Valvoline max life full synthetic in my 103 primary. It just made sense to me that primary SE Wet clutch pack could benefit as much as automatic transmission clutch discs. I also noticed better shifting less clunking. And I had similar wear results as You have demonstrated. I did not have the auto Slack adjuster as the newer models. I really liked using it. I would guess I logged 50,000 miles using that product with no issues. I changed it whenever I did engine oil, which has always been red line full synthetic.
My 117 M8 motor runs so good, no shifting issues, no transmission noises or vibrations, I probably would not have considered continuing with ATF were it not for this post. Thanks for the heads up
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Do you still do a 5k change or do you run longer using the ATF between changes?
I never change primary oil at 5,000 miles. Prolly run it to 15,000 miles or more and then change it.
John
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Wait until you’re stuck in stop and go traffic, the check it again. ATF is not rated for the temperatures the primary can get to under those circumstances, synthetic or otherwise.
The fluid oxidizes and breaks down under high heat and loses its lubricative properties. At around 240* it can actually begin to varnish.
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Ha! Now I've been scared straight . Haha
I went out to verify what you said about fluid breakdown. And did find information indicating fluid can begin break down at temperatures around 180°F And for every 20° above that you can cut the life of the fluid in half. Now if you take the standard life of fluid and run that formula it can work out to be still acceptable if fluid is changed regularly.
I also went to verify numbers for the product I was using, Valvoline max life ATF. I talked to Valvoline support via chat. They told me that this fluid will outlast any temperatures that could destroy a normal automatic transmission. They also stated 300°F it would continue to perform as intended . I will attach a screenshot of that dialogue.
I have ridden with the max life ATF in the primary during the heat of the summer in south eastern states where the motor was hot enough to go into limp mode and never experienced any fluid burning or clutch disk damage I should also add that I did change whenever I changed engine oil.
On my new 117 M8 I plan on following Harley's recommendations for fluid as it performs perfect the way it is.
Maybe I just got lucky with my 103 ha ha
I decided that I better make a disclaimer because this does seem to be a controversial subject. Ha ha
These are my experiences, and I in no way make any recommendations that might damage your ride. One would assume that you make your own conscious decision to try something that is not sanctioned by Harley Davidson.
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Wait until you’re stuck in stop and go traffic, the check it again. ATF is not rated for the temperatures the primary can get to under those circumstances, synthetic or otherwise.
The fluid oxidizes and breaks down under high heat and loses its lubricative properties. At around 240* it can actually begin to varnish.
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I disagree with that.
I've run auto-trans. equipped cars with small torque converters and high stall speeds . Nothing gets the trans fluid HOTTER than that. NO problems. I've been using ATF in all the Harleys I modify, if the primary needs to come off re: heavy duty clutch. since the 80's. A lot of them see dual purpose on the street and at the track. Harley Davidson racing also recommended ATF in their dual purpose race/street bikes, as well as Bandit Machine.
John
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I've had my motor get stinking hot up in the 300f bracket (I installed a oil temp gauge on the bike) in stop and go traffic in the city
When I've got home I've pulled the motor dipstick to check by smelling if the oil is burnt, oil will have a distinctive burn smell and discoloration. I use Amsoil it's up in the high temp operating oils.
I do the same with the ATF smell it for any hint of it being over heated/burnt when I changed it the first time and on this change the fluid is still semi clear and still has a reddish tint to it.
If it's gotten overwhelmingly hot it would smell burnt and turn dark brownish in colour.
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My local shop is out of Primary Oil until next week.
My drain plug has a small drip. So, I am found
Valvwoline ATF with Dextron and Mercon that Baker Recommended on thier Clutch.
My question is, Do in open Primary and clean everything and take the Clutch apart and clean so I can add the ATF? Or do just drain Primary overnight and then add the ATF. To me the Advantage if ATF is uts readily available at Autozone like Mobile 1 20-50
and I don't have to go 70 miles to Harley Dealership.
Thanks guys.
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My local shop is out of Primary Oil until next week.
My drain plug has a small drip. So, I am found
Valvwoline ATF with Dextron and Mercon that Baker Recommended on thier Clutch.
My question is, Do in open Primary and clean everything and take the Clutch apart and clean so I can add the ATF? Or do just drain Primary overnight and then add the ATF. To me the Advantage if ATF is uts readily available at Autozone like Mobile 1 20-50
and I don't have to go 70 miles to Harley Dealership.
Thanks guys.
I have an empty primary right now after pulling it apart to replace a shifter seal and am thinking of trying that ATF route when I get the cover back on. Was reading the literature on the Alto Carbonite clutch and they are ok with ATF and reccomend type F for more holding power.
Automatic Transmission Fluid can be used with bikes that use separate oils for the engine, clutch and gearbox. Alto clutches will operate properly with any of the ATF fluids on the market. (Ford “Type F” fluid will give a more positive clutch engagement, and is more suitable for competition riding.)
It doesn't mention synthetic in their literature. Is dino a must or is synthetic ok?
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My local shop is out of Primary Oil until next week.
My drain plug has a small drip. So, I am found
Valvwoline ATF with Dextron and Mercon that Baker Recommended on thier Clutch.
My question is, Do in open Primary and clean everything and take the Clutch apart and clean so I can add the ATF? Or do just drain Primary overnight and then add the ATF. To me the Advantage if ATF is uts readily available at Autozone like Mobile 1 20-50
and I don't have to go 70 miles to Harley Dealership.
Thanks guys.
I'd recommend if you're able removing the primary cover and clean it out, no need to pull the clutch hub apart to clean out the clutch first put a cardboard shroud over the top full length of the primary and run the motor for 30 seconds that will sling out any oil in the clutch hub and compensator.
If you don't pull the cover (because there's a few ounces still in the primary that doesn't drain) put in the ATF give it a short run then drain and refill with fresh ATF.
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I have an empty primary right now after pulling it apart to replace a shifter seal and am thinking of trying that ATF route when I get the cover back on. Was reading the literature on the Alto Carbonite clutch and they are ok with ATF and reccomend type F for more holding power.
Automatic Transmission Fluid can be used with bikes that use separate oils for the engine, clutch and gearbox. Alto clutches will operate properly with any of the ATF fluids on the market. (Ford “Type F” fluid will give a more positive clutch engagement, and is more suitable for competition riding.)
It doesn't mention synthetic in their literature. Is dino a must or is synthetic ok?
I've found synthetic too be fine with no issues no compensator clunks clutch working fine as well. I also add in 1-1/2 ounces of this ATF synthetic additive.
Shifting and especially getting into "N" is no effort.
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I have an empty primary right now after pulling it apart to replace a shifter seal and am thinking of trying that ATF route when I get the cover back on. Was reading the literature on the Alto Carbonite clutch and they are ok with ATF and reccomend type F for more holding power.
Automatic Transmission Fluid can be used with bikes that use separate oils for the engine, clutch and gearbox. Alto clutches will operate properly with any of the ATF fluids on the market. (Ford “Type F” fluid will give a more positive clutch engagement, and is more suitable for competition riding.)
It doesn't mention synthetic in their literature. Is dino a must or is synthetic ok?
Dave,
You won't have any problems using synthetic ATF in your primary with Alto Carbonite Clutch plates. I use Valvoline Max Life in all my Carbonite installs.
John
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I put a Quart of VALVOLINE ATF with Dex/Merc in Primary and run motor a few minutes then drained it into a container and it was all red. I didn't see any discoloration from the regulator Primary oil. Then added a new quart in the ATF. I didn't notice any issues with the ATF.
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Dave,
You won't have any problems using synthetic ATF in your primary with Alto Carbonite Clutch plates. I use Valvoline Max Life in all my Carbonite installs.
John
Thank you John. Hows Florida weather treating you?
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I'd recommend if you're able removing the primary cover and clean it out, no need to pull the clutch hub apart to clean out the clutch first put a cardboard shroud over the top full length of the primary and run the motor for 30 seconds that will sling out any oil in the clutch hub and compensator.
If you don't pull the cover (because there's a few ounces still in the primary that doesn't drain) put in the ATF give it a short run then drain and refill with fresh ATF.
Funny you should make mention of the cardboard... I can tell you what happens when you start the bike without doing that!! Yep I have a bike that needs a cleaning...
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I put a Quart of VALVOLINE ATF with Dex/Merc in Primary and run motor a few minutes then drained it into a container and it was all red. I didn't see any discoloration from the regulator Primary oil. Then added a new quart in the ATF. I didn't notice any issues with the ATF.
ATF is going back in old girl
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ATF is going back in old girl
Let us know if it's made any noticeable difference to your bikes performance. It definitely did to mine.
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Let us know if it's made any noticeable difference to your bikes performance. It definitely did to mine.
Sure will. Hopefully by the weekend I can get her back together and get a few hundred miles on ot