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[Twolanerider]

Even putting an extra gasket or 2 behind the side cover(where the slave cylinder is mounted) could make a significant difference.

Piston would just move to take up the new stack.

[tdkkart]

Piston would just move to take up the new stack.

 Depends, is the slave cylinder spring returned internally or does the clutch push it back??
As it is now, it's engaging too late, which means it also disengages too early. If you can introduce some slack it will move the lever position.

At this point he needs a "what if" answer, not a "this is how it is" answer.
There has to be something different, mine certainly doesn't work the way he is describing.

[sadunbar]

Depends, is the slave cylinder spring returned internally or does the clutch push it back??
As it is now, it's engaging too late, which means it also disengages too early. If you can introduce some slack it will move the lever position.

At this point he needs a "what if" answer, not a "this is how it is" answer.
There has to be something different, mine certainly doesn't work the way he is describing.

With all due respect, what he, or a qualified technician, needs to do is perform basic troubleshooting of the mechanism.  Measure travel, measure components, inspect for damage, find the out of spec. component and replace it with a proper component.  Doubling up a gasket is only a temporary fix (if it were a fix, which it is not) if there is a part failing, such as a failing snap ring, for example.  While I appreciate your sentiment and good intentions, it's a fairly simple assembly with very few components.  It would not take much effort from someone with a basic understanding and a few tools to properly diagnose and fix the issue...  He needs to find the right shop or friend with the necessary skills to help him out.

 

[grc]

The slave cylinder has a small spring, but it is used to maintain zero lash with the piston,pushrod, and release plate, not to pull the piston back.  The attachment is from the instructions for the rebuild kit for the CVO actuators, 2004 to present.

Jerry

[tdkkart]

it's a fairly simple assembly with very few components.

Agreed, which is why someone should have quit saying "that's the way it is" after about the 2nd visit to the dealership.
However, when we pay techs flat rate their primary objective is to move bikes in and out, rather than actually fix them.

[FullBagger]

tdkkart and sadnubar,

Thanks for your help and suggestions.
There is not too much fluid in the master cylinder so it's a mechanical problem. In fact, it was a bit low after they bled the system.

I'm no MC mechanic but wrenched on many a car before. Couldn't afford to buy newer ones. Just old beaters and lots of busted knuckles.

I have the tools, torque wrenches, calipers and dial indicators. If not the right one, I will borrow or buy one. I just have no hydraulic clutch experience.
I suspect it's not rocket science ... it's a hydraulic/mechanical system. I just need to get a service manual, set aside a little time (maybe a lot) and tear into it.

What's the worst that can happen ..... I screw something up. It's already that!

You are both right. The mechanics should do some basic troubleshooting. If they rode it for a day, they would!
2 minutes around the block is the extent of the troubleshooting so far. I suppose if it works, it's good to go.
 
Yesterday I noticed that, at times, it seemed tolerable. At other times, I'd think "Am I in neutral?" and start looking for the "N" again. It's not a hot or cold thing either. Doesn't matter if I just started riding or hours later.

If this was my first bike, I'd probably quit riding by now. I'd be thinking, "I can't get ahold of this clutch thing." But it's not. and it's not my first HD hydraulic clutch so I know how they should be.

I'm really missing my cable and turnbuckle.

[twinotter]

The slave cylinder will always have enough travel in it allow for wear on the other components such as the pushrod and clutch plates. If it bottomed out, it wouldn't be able to take up the slack for full travel.
The Master cylinder, on the other hand, must return to full outwards travel every time, in other words come to its max travel so the fluid will release it pressure into the reserve.
If you remove the lever, you should be able to see that the master cyl piston is coming all the way out to its internal stop. At that point, he lever should not be touching the piston. If it is the piston may not be traveling all the way to it stop. If the lever pushes the piston in, even a couple of thousanths of an inch, it may not release the line pressure fully.
If your certain the master piston is reaching full outward travel, you can remove material from the lever where it touches the piston, allowing the lever to have a a little play when fully out. Even a few .000's can make the release point closer to the grips.  Buffalo

[FullBagger]

twinotter
Thanks, I'll check that out this weekend. (Hope I have time)
A couple of things I have not mentioned yet. May not mean anything but for you more experienced folks, it may mean a lot.

On the first ride of the day, engine and trans cold, it does not go into 1st gear even though the foot shift lever hits a hard stop.
Sequence:
Pull in clutch
Verify trans in neutral
Start bike
Push down on foot shift lever (No classic CLUNK!)
Look to see if it is still in "N" (Sometimes no but most of the time yes)
<If NO - Take off and go>
<If YES - Continue to next step>
Pull in clutch
Pushdown on foot shift lever again (there it is, the all familiar CLUNK)
Take off and go.

Once, but only once, it popped out of first and the gears ground on it until I pulled the clutch back in.
I was told this was also normal. "Until tensioner wears in",they said.

Sorry I left these little tidbits out until now if they mean anything to anyone.

[sadunbar]

The slave cylinder will always have enough travel in it allow for wear on the other components such as the pushrod and clutch plates. If it bottomed out, it wouldn't be able to take up the slack for full travel.
The Master cylinder, on the other hand, must return to full outwards travel every time, in other words come to its max travel so the fluid will release it pressure into the reserve.
If you remove the lever, you should be able to see that the master cyl piston is coming all the way out to its internal stop. At that point, he lever should not be touching the piston. If it is the piston may not be traveling all the way to it stop. If the lever pushes the piston in, even a couple of thousanths of an inch, it may not release the line pressure fully.
If your certain the master piston is reaching full outward travel, you can remove material from the lever where it touches the piston, allowing the lever to have a a little play when fully out. Even a few .000's can make the release point closer to the grips.  Buffalo

 

Of course, using a dial indicator to measure the actual pushrod travel will instantly tell you if this is where the problem lies.  If there is .065 pushrod travel, the master cylinder (and slave cylinder) is working as it should, and the problem lies elsewhere. 

[sadunbar]

twinotter
Thanks, I'll check that out this weekend. (Hope I have time)
A couple of things I have not mentioned yet. May not mean anything but for you more experienced folks, it may mean a lot.

On the first ride of the day, engine and trans cold, it does not go into 1st gear even though the foot shift lever hits a hard stop.
Sequence:
Pull in clutch
Verify trans in neutral
Start bike
Push down on foot shift lever (No classic CLUNK!)
Look to see if it is still in "N" (Sometimes no but most of the time yes)
<If NO - Take off and go>
<If YES - Continue to next step>
Pull in clutch
Pushdown on foot shift lever again (there it is, the all familiar CLUNK)
Take off and go.

Once, but only once, it popped out of first and the gears ground on it until I pulled the clutch back in.
I was told this was also normal. "Until tensioner wears in",they said.

Sorry I left these little tidbits out until now if they mean anything to anyone.

All this really means is you are talking to the wrong technician.  There is nothing normal about any of this... 

[hdbrad03]

The Wife's  had the same issue that the clutch lever was to far out. The return orifice in the clutch master cylinder had plugged. So no or limited return path. Cleaned the orifice (hole). Works correctly now.

 


   Brad

[FullBagger]

All this really means is you are talking to the wrong technician.  There is nothing normal about any of this...

Agreed!
Two different dealerships, three different technicians.
Even called HD customer service (that's a joke).
So, the clutch is not normal and the trans shifting is not normal.
No one has time to give a sh1t.

It seems that it's not about fixing things, it's about getting bikes in and out.

hdbrad03,
I'll look at that this weekend also. Again, if I'm not working.
Thanks for letting me know what fixed hers.

[sadunbar]

Agreed!
Two different dealerships, three different technicians.
Even called HD customer service (that's a joke).
So, the clutch is not normal and the trans shifting is not normal.
No one has time to give a sh1t.

It seems that it's not about fixing things, it's about getting bikes in and out.

hdbrad03,
I'll look at that this weekend also. Again, if I'm not working.
Thanks for letting me know what fixed hers.

Be sure to get a service manual and parts manual for your specific bike...

[grc]

The Wife's  had the same issue that the clutch lever was to far out. The return orifice in the clutch master cylinder had plugged. So no or limited return path. Cleaned the orifice (hole). Works correctly now.

 


   Brad

EXACTLY!  And guess what kinds of problems Harley has been having with Rushed More hydraulic clutches.  Debris from defective piston seals is one of the many problems I remember from the recalls.

FullBagger, if you remember I earlier mentioned how an overfilled reservoir could cause your problem by not allowing the slave cylinder to fully retract.  Well this is another way the same thing can happen even if the fluid level is OK.  With the master cylinder level, or as close as you can get it by moving the bars, protect surrounding painted parts, remove the cap, and observe the fluid while carefully squeezing the lever slightly.  If the port is open like it should be, you should get a short spurt of fluid in the reservoir before the piston advances far enough to close off the port.  If that port is blocked, it would create the early release and late engagement you've reported.  And the more I think about your problem, the more I seem to remember someone else reporting a similar problem last year that only got fixed when the dealership was finally convinced to replace the master cylinder.

Jerry

[FullBagger]

grc, I checked the level but did not depress the lever.
I have a J&S Jack and will put it in the air, turn the bars to right and perform the test you described.
I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks