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[Capo]

Thanks Mike.  The disassembly was uneventful.  Hopefully the reassembly will be as well.

The regular fluid changes haven't had any even small shavings in them.  I don't think the opened dowel would have stopped everything.  And even though the gears look like they've got hundreds of miles of running in no lubricant at all it was never noisy up until the moment it failed.  So truth be told I don't have a clue what happened, or why.

I honestly don't think the dowel in the drain plug was a contributing factor.  But I can't say for sure.  If it had been churning debris and slowly eating itself I'd have expected a noisy gear box though.  There are areas on some of the gears that aren't viewable in photos that are worse then what can be seen here.  You just can't imagine a gear box in any process of that kind of self destruction still staying quite.  On the other hand I can't imagine this box eating itself that badly in either the sudden failure or the short crippled run back to the trailer afterwards.

It's expensive.  It's ugly.  But it's kinda cool to look at .

Don,
sounds like you are lucky you didn't go down when that bad boy locked up? Would this mess be covered by a Moco extendo warranty?
Ride Safe!

[skreminegul07]

Glad you didn't lock up, too.  Sort of fortunate that you made the York run and it died close to home.  The silver lining to the story.  That's what Prozac will do for you.
That was a dealer 6 speed upgrade I believe you said.  How many miles?
What lubricant were you running?

[Boatman]

Don-

If I was just looking at the gearset with no explanation, I would say no lubricant.  But we know that isn't the case.  Possibly a needle bearing coming apart started the whole problem?   

Regarding George's Garage, Jim (Hd-dude) put me on to him when I did my cams 2 years ago.  Also highly recommend George.  George gave me 10% off when I mentioned CVOHarley per Jim back then.  Does he still do it?

Good luck with the install.

Bob

[sadunbar]

When I did my motor rebuild, I bought a few specialty tools from George of George's Garage.  I told him about the site.  He gave me a 10% discount and also told me what tools I did and didn't need to do the build...  Very friendly and helpful...   

[hd-dude]

That's some serious shrapnel in there Don!. Good luck on the resurrection. George is a great guy for sure. Most of the motor, tranny, wheel bearing tools I use in the shop almost daily are from him. Good quality stuff.

[Twolanerider]

Glad you didn't lock up, too.  Sort of fortunate that you made the York run and it died close to home.  The silver lining to the story.  That's what Prozac will do for you.
That was a dealer 6 speed upgrade I believe you said.  How many miles?
What lubricant were you running?

Yes, it was a dealer installation.  Just about the only thing the dealer has ever done to it.  I should have known better too.  It was a combination of a 25% parts and labor winter special and another 20% off coupon I had as a door prize kind of thing.  So the dealer would do the whole job for about $1400.00. 

I say "should have known better" but their work didn't contribute to this.  The clearancing work in the case is a bit sloppy (ok, a lot sloppy in one place).  But I've already cleaned it up.  And the missing dowel was annoying but I don't believe it to be contributory here.  It's just one of those things...

The install was about 20k miles old.  Oil was the Redline Heavy.  Last change prior to the failure was about 3000 miles before the failure.  Change intervals had been 5k miles.

[Twolanerider]

Don,
sounds like you are licky you didn't go down when that bad boy locked up? Would this mess be covered by a Moco extendo warranty?
Ride Safe!

An extended warranty wouldn't.  The factory warranty will cover those things added at the time of purchase.  The extended warranty provider is not obligated to do the same. 

The accessory packages vary from 30 to 90 days to a year.  I honestly don't even know what warranty the gear set carries.  But it would be its accessory warranty as an after the fact installation.  This particular install was beyond even a year.  So no consideration of warranty coverage here.

[Twolanerider]

George gave me 10% off when I mentioned CVOHarley per Jim back then.  Does he still do it?

Thanks Bob.  And, dammit, it never occurred to me to ask George or mention the CVO site.  I was just a customer calling up buying tools.  So no discount.  My bad.

[Twolanerider]

That's some serious shrapnel in there Don!. Good luck on the resurrection. George is a great guy for sure. Most of the motor, tranny, wheel bearing tools I use in the shop almost daily are from him. Good quality stuff.

Thanks Jim.  And that's what I'm seeing on these tools too.  Very nice pieces.  Have three various bearing pullers and other bits in the tool box that are home made or re-made variants of other more generic pullers.  His items are nice enough it's tempting to break down and get the good stuff!

[Twolanerider]

It was too late last night to do anything more then be slightly amazed at how badly that gear set was damaged.  Before getting started on other things this morning, however, went after it with a closer focus.  Was hoping to find some obvious initial failure.  Unfortunately I'll never be on "CSI Transmission" and become wealthy from TV residuals.  Just can't find it.  Don't know and won't know what caused it.

[porthole]

I'll start by saying - never been in one of these gearboxes either.

But, it is just a gearbox.

This picture --- I would venture to say the gears have been having a problem for a while. Unless the gearbox is abused, I can't see a reason for the almost "instant failure".

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23153.0;attach=64973;image

Had you had the Syn 3 oil in it you probably would have heard it, having gear oil in the case very likely could have masked the noise.

You said you never had metal during the oil changes  - how about the pretty metal flake in the drain pain, ever look closely at it?

Every time I change the trans oil (same as engine) I get nothing on the magnet but I can see it in the oil.

[porthole]

one of those significantly over priced outer primary gaskets Harley is so proud of.

Your not kidding, I just got one 2 weeks ago to install the auto chain tensioner kit.

This transmission "Super Kit" appears to be pretty damned complete.

What is this "super kit"?

[Twolanerider]

I'll start by saying - never been in one of these gearboxes either.

But, it is just a gearbox.

This picture --- I would venture to say the gears have been having a problem for a while. Unless the gearbox is abused, I can't see a reason for the almost "instant failure".

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23153.0;attach=64973;image

Had you had the Syn 3 oil in it you probably would have heard it, having gear oil in the case very likely could have masked the noise.

You said you never had metal during the oil changes  - how about the pretty metal flake in the drain pain, ever look closely at it?

Every time I change the trans oil (same as engine) I get nothing on the magnet but I can see it in the oil.

Completely agree Duane.  Gears is gears.  Nothing magic here.  Not even any places where one had to hold his mouth right for the disassembly.

I also agree this thing looks like long term abuse and/or damage.  But it really hadn't had any.  And I never saw anything on the drain plug's magnet and only the finest and fewest filings in the fluid.

As ugly as the shrapnel broke off the gears are, however, they were not in and of themselves the lock up failure.  Were something else not locked up they would still turn.  With a bountiful clatter.  But they'd turn.

Readily admit this thing really makes very little sense to me.  I can't really square the circle that is its current condition compared to what had been its behavior on the street.  So in the end I'll just make sure everything is very very clean inside, put all the pretty new parts in, do a very short service interval after the reassembly, and then ride it.

[Twolanerider]

What is this "super kit"?

I was amused when I read that.  Harley seemed rather proud of themselves.  The label on the outside of the box gave the Harley part number and the description.  It was the Six Speed Super Kit .  I hope Harley understands that, while being praised, it's still a bit of damning with faint praise to be lauded for actually having everything in a box that really should be there anyway (except the $30 primary gasket).

[porthole]

I also agree this thing looks like long term abuse and/or damage.  But it really hadn't had any.  And I never saw anything on the drain plug's magnet and only the finest and fewest filings in the fluid.

Wasn't suggesting that you abused it, but I'm sure you already know I wasn't.

My next best guess is just a poor casting of the gears that eventually did what they did, and having quality gear oil in the case kept it together longer.

Just think, if you had the Syn 3 junk we probably would have been making arrangements to get the bike back from York!

18+ years as a "A" tech specializing in engines - transmissions (manual and auto)- and rear axles I have seen a lot of failures, many just like yours and quite a few with absolutely no plausible explanation. Chit happens.