Topic: Noise in Primary (Read 30459 times)

Rickasha · « **on:** September 18, 2011, 09:24:07 PM »

Since I've owned the new bike I hear a rattling noise coming from the primary. When the bike is idling in neutral not touching the clutch lever, I have a noise like a steel ball is rattling around in the primary. When I pull the clutch lever in the noise goes away?? I have taken it to the dealer and the service advisor says that's normal. Funny thing, that noise wasn't there on my 09. Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Rick

Boatman · « **Reply #1 on:** September 18, 2011, 09:29:41 PM »

When you pull in on the clutch lever, the gears in the tranny quit turning. There have been several people with bad tranny mainshaft bearings and/or inner primary bearing.

They would have to pull the inner and outer primary covers to look at these bearings. The tranny doesn't have to be disassembled.

Any metal shavings on drain plug other than the normal particles?

Good luck.

Rickasha · « **Reply #2 on:** September 18, 2011, 09:34:56 PM »

Just switched over to redline in the tranny. There were a few shavings on the plug but nothing unusual.

FUZZNUTS · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2011, 01:46:35 PM »

I'd been having some what of a similar noise issue going on myself. I've also went the route with the dealer with the Compensator noise. Dealer replaced the Chrome starter and then the clutch bearing but not the Compensator. So I bought the SE Compensator on my own and took it to my Indy and he installed it , torqued it . HD Specs, and the bike started very nicely after that.......................................... But on the way home from Ribfest, I was noticing the rattle comming from the primary. Quiet when first starting and around the block or so, but at normal cruising an hour or so..... At idle after starting or filling up at the gas station , the noise starts ....................... I believe that it's time to try a new chain and tensioner before I go ahead and spend the dough on looking into any more issues. I have a little under 21,000 miles on the scoot. .............................Fuzznuts

Ghost__Rider · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2011, 04:13:28 PM »

I had a buddy who was complaining of noisy primary. He took it to the dealer a couple of times and they even replaced the compesator once, still had the noise. I took it for a ride and I could even hear it. I took a shot in the dark and tried something. I gave the primary chain tensioner a extra couple of clicks manually on the chain to take out the extra flop in the chain.
Bike is quiet now and he is happy. May not be your noise but just a thought.

LC110 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2011, 05:40:30 PM »

Quote

Any metal shavings on drain plug other than the normal particles?

What would you consider normal? And how much in relationship to the amount of fine particles stuck to the magnetic plug?
After a few fluid changes the magnetic plug, shouldn't it be almost clean.

moscooter · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2011, 05:51:23 PM »

You might want to consider one of these. The (stock) tensioner has rachet "teeth" on it and will not slacken up............This one is hydraulic and might solve your noise problem.

http://sohotbikes.com/HB%20Wedge%20Instructions.pdf

FUZZNUTS · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2011, 08:35:22 PM »

Quote from: moscooter on September 20, 2011, 05:51:23 PM

You might want to consider one of these. The (stock) tensioner has rachet "teeth" on it and will not slacken up............This one is hydraulic and might solve your noise problem.

http://sohotbikes.com/HB%20Wedge%20Instructions.pdf

Thanks MO, I've seen this once before. But could not recall where the hell I saw this before. Thanks..........................................Fuzz

Rickasha · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2011, 12:22:28 PM »

Well it seems the MoCo has issued Service Bulletin M-1304 dated August 31, 2011. They call it "Big Twin Neutral Rattle", caused by necessary backlash within the first gear pair. Backlash is a combination of gear tooth pitch,relative location of the support bearings to each other, along with many other factors. Dealers are encouraged to share this info with customers who have reported the problem, and advise them that it is normal.

willyB · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2011, 11:44:50 AM »

Just got back from a 4000 mile ride. About 5 miles from home we stopped for dinner. When I started it back up "BIG RATTLE IN PRIMARY".

Not just at idle but while moving as well. Noise increased with any load on the motor.

I'm assuming it's the POS compensator since the noise is directly behind the clutch inspection cover. I called HD today about 8:30 am to start the reference number process before calling the local dealer. I called the dealer a little after 9:10 am and was told that they could not get me in for over a week. I then called HD to make note of this delay. About 9:45 am I received a call from the dealers "new" service manager saying that he could get me in this morning to take a look at it.

He said he had talked to one of his techs and they said it was probably the primary chain tensioner. I told him that the sound was not coming from the area of the tensioner but behind the clutch inspection cover so I was assuming it was the compensator. Believe it or not the service manager said "well if the noise is coming from the left side it could not behind the clutch inspection cover since it's on the right side".

I stopped him before he went any further and said "obviously you know nothing about HD's because the clutch is behind the primary cover which is on the left side".

I said, let's start this all over from the start. You can tell your tech that it's not the chain tensioner and I know enough about HD's to not be fed a line of BS. He apologized and said the they will make sure that the bike is fixed right. He went on to say that as the new service manager he is out to make a quality name for his service department.

I think he was a little surprised that I knew the 2011 compensator part number along with the new 2012 part (designated A). I also pointed out to him that if he wanted to tell me that it had anything to do with the 8/31/11 service bulliten #M-1304 "Big Twin Neutral Rattle" that he was going to have his tech disassemble the bike with me right there to show me exactly the problem.

Getting ready to ride it down there now. We'll see!!

A special thanks to this site for keeping us all well informed.

TB · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2011, 06:33:04 PM »

I had very little metal on the primary drain plug when the inner primary/trans mainshaft bearing failed (ie: very loud whinning with clutch out). Luckily I caught it before it had a chance to granade the primary. Bearing wear was evident on the rollers and inner race. The inner race in particular had grooves worn in it the size of the rollers. The rollers obviously had tried to beat the inner race into submission.

moscooter · « **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2011, 07:54:44 PM »

Willy, do NOT discount the fact that the primary chain tensioner could indeed have led to the problems with associated bearings, etc. On another forum that I have been on for years, we have a head tech at a large HD dealership and he is a loyal Harley guy. But he recently stated some reservations and concerns with the tensioner used since 2007 and problems he has seen that may well be related to the "banjo tight" or "bowstring" tight primary chain that the HD "ratchet teeth" tensioner applies to the chain.

gmills · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2011, 08:12:31 PM »

I've had the new style tensioner ruin 2 chains on 2 different bike so far the both were as tight as a piano string. One I put the old style tensioner in it and the other is still apart and deciding what to do at this point

moscooter · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2011, 07:20:03 AM »

Here is the post from another forum that just might be similar to what problems are in this one.

http://harleyzone.tenmagazines.com/ew/forums/Topic.asp?id=82378&pos=1

willyB · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2011, 09:08:32 AM »

Quote from: moscooter on September 26, 2011, 07:54:44 PM

Willy, do NOT discount the fact that the primary chain tensioner could indeed have led to the problems with associated bearings, etc. On another forum that I have been on for years, we have a head tech at a large HD dealership and he is a loyal Harley guy. But he recently stated some reservations and concerns with the tensioner used since 2007 and problems he has seen that may well be related to the "banjo tight" or "bowstring" tight primary chain that the HD "ratchet teeth" tensioner applies to the chain.

Well, I rode the machine over to the dealer yesterday (noisy and clattering and the "new" service manager was the nicest service manager I've ever met! It was his first day on the job after coming from the automotive industry. Within a minute his top tech came out and started the bike. He shut it off right away. After a little conversation/debate about the problem the tech was so sure the it was the tensioner sitting between adjustment notches that he bet me lunch. I told him that if it was truly the tensioner I would buy him and the service manager lunch.

He took the bike in the shop and asked me to come along. He quickly pulled the primary cover off and described in detail how the tensioner operates. He then took the end of a screw driver handle and tapped the tensioner fairly hard. That's it! He even showed me where the slacked chain was hitting the inside of the primary cover. He put the cover on and filled the primary. He started it up and the noise was gone. He said he sees this normally at around 5,000 miles but has seen it as far as 15,000 miles.

I asked him if I should change to an adjustable tensioner and he said no, the auto adjusters are great and that the only issue he has seen are issue related to its first slack adjustment.

These were two top notch Harley service folks to buy lunch for.

grc · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2011, 02:11:15 PM »

Quote from: willyB on September 27, 2011, 09:08:32 AM

Well, I rode the machine over to the dealer yesterday (noisy and clattering and the "new" service manager was the nicest service manager I've ever met! It was his first day on the job after coming from the automotive industry. Within a minute his top tech came out and started the bike. He shut it off right away. After a little conversation/debate about the problem the tech was so sure the it was the tensioner sitting between adjustment notches that he bet me lunch. I told him that if it was truly the tensioner I would buy him and the service manager lunch.

He took the bike in the shop and asked me to come along. He quickly pulled the primary cover off and described in detail how the tensioner operates. He then took the end of a screw driver handle and tapped the tensioner fairly hard. That's it! He even showed me where the slacked chain was hitting the inside of the primary cover. He put the cover on and filled the primary. He started it up and the noise was gone. He said he sees this normally at around 5,000 miles but has seen it as far as 15,000 miles.

I asked him if I should change to an adjustable tensioner and he said no, the auto adjusters are great and that the only issue he has seen are issue related to its first slack adjustment.

These were two top notch Harley service folks to buy lunch for.

So let me see if I've got this right. The tensioner did not self adjust (which is what a self adjusting tensioner is supposed to do, correct?), but rather than replace it the customer should take it in so a tech can whack it with a screwdriver and proclaim it fixed? Isn't that kind of like fixing your TV by smacking it with the palm of your hand?

If this is a widespread problem, then obviously H-D still hasn't got the design right (they are currently on the -B revision level). Smacking stuff with a screwdriver or hammer or anything else is not a valid answer. What next, use a ball peen hammer if the lifters start making noise?

Jerry

willyB · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2011, 07:11:17 PM »

Jerry,

I hear ya!

I was a little unconvinced until I sat at lunch with the tech and listened to him describe why and how often this occurs. He said since the new tensioners came out he has only come across 2 or 3 instances. He said when he ran into it the first time he spent about 40 hours disassembling and re-assembling the primary assembly before he found the problem. He said he reported this to Mother HD in some detail.

I should say the "whack" wasn't like punching someone in the jaw. I was probably a little agressive on the description. Tap/Knock is really more correct.

Granted the device should not need to be tweaked but it basically seemed to amount to the chain stretching to a point where it was not quite enough for the mechanism to self adjust.

I'm generally not easily convinced on engineering issues but I think this tech has quite carefully defined a resolution to a not too common issue. He said he has never seen anyone of them come back. I've seen this guy around the HD shops in town for probably 10-15 years and from what I hear he is one of the best in town.

I guess for now I trust this techs opinion. He really seemed to know his stuff. I didn't ask him but he sounded like he had an engineering degree.

gmills · « **Reply #17 on:** September 29, 2011, 04:05:54 AM »

I've seen too many of them adjust and make the chain as tight as a piano string. Not good for the bearings or the chain.
this is my next project real soon as soon as I can find someone with an edm maching to cut the slot. Not my invention but taken (borrowed) from another site

lammgrel · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2011, 10:21:53 AM »

Very Useful thread. My 2012 FLHXSE3 has been making noise similar to the description here, clattering with the clutch disengaged, noticeable when engine is hot. I took it to the local dealer once and of course it didn't make any noise when I got it there. After a ~70 mile ride this week it was clattering quite noticeably when I got it home. I've only got about 470 miles on it.

Aussie · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2012, 12:34:47 AM »

Quote from: lammgrel on September 30, 2011, 10:21:53 AM

Very Useful thread. My 2012 FLHXSE3 has been making noise similar to the description here, clattering with the clutch disengaged, noticeable when engine is hot. I took it to the local dealer once and of course it didn't make any noise when I got it there. After a ~70 mile ride this week it was clattering quite noticeably when I got it home. I've only got about 470 miles on it.

I had the same with my 08 Fatboy Custom, rattle in the primary, had we worried for a little while, so went to a dealer and explained what was going on, he got his stethascope out and had a listen and said sounds alright but would hurt to have a look at whats going on, also told me to twist the throttle (ride a bit harder) a bit so the tensioner would take up slack when primary chain is under load. Quietened it down a little.

Got a 2012 SG as well and put it in first gear, gear clunked in really hard and then I had a rattle sound in the primary when in neutral, pull clutch in and no rattle, so I went for a ride and nothing unusual, all was OK, got home and wasn't as bad although still a little rattle.
So I am thinking along the same lines it is the chain tension causing the rattle.

Fxr4Rider · « **Reply #20 on:** March 13, 2012, 06:21:59 PM »

So I have to ask? Is this "neutral rattle" something to be concerned about?

I finally got out today and put the first 35 miles on the odometer.

This rattle freaked me out!

Same deal : hot and in neutral, it like a bunch of marbles flopping around. Pull in the clutch and no noise.

Should I be concerned? Or give it a few hundred miles?

Fxr4Rider · « **Reply #21 on:** March 13, 2012, 06:42:58 PM »

Quote from: Fxr4Rider on March 13, 2012, 06:21:59 PM

So I have to ask? Is this "neutral rattle" something to be concerned about?

I finally got out today and put the first 35 miles on the odometer.

This rattle freaked me out!

Same deal : hot and in neutral, it like a bunch of marbles flopping around. Pull in the clutch and no noise.

Should I be concerned? Or give it a few hundred miles?

I think I may have answered my own question. It is a self adjusting tensioner. And we have to keep the the rpms low and not drive it like it stole for the first 50 miles. I may have hit the panic button to soon.
I will sit down be patient and not panic next time. I just hope the rattle settles down!

dlaws01 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 13, 2012, 07:27:26 PM »

Quote from: OldLefty on September 20, 2011, 05:40:30 PM

What would you consider normal? And how much in relationship to the amount of fine particles stuck to the magnetic plug?
After a few fluid changes the magnetic plug, shouldn't it be almost clean.

Normal would be any size particle that is too small to have a part number on it.

moscooter · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2012, 07:11:53 PM »

You provide an answer to a (problem) and it seems to escape many with the problem.

sadunbar · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2012, 07:33:08 PM »

Harley issued an official explanation of why primary's now rattle....

It's normal...

see attached pdf...

Smitty2u · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2012, 09:05:57 PM »

Quote from: sadunbar on March 18, 2012, 07:33:08 PM

Harley issued an official explanation of why primary's now rattle....

It's normal...

see attached pdf...

If that's not an effort to dodge responsibility, I don't know what is....

grc · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2012, 09:00:35 AM »

Quote from: Smitty2u on March 18, 2012, 09:05:57 PM

If that's not an effort to dodge responsibility, I don't know what is....

They are more famous than most for claiming everything is "normal". The biggest problem in my mind is how they and their dealers use that term for so many things they lose all credibility. They get away with it for something that is in fact OK, so they take advantage and use it every time they don't know how to fix it or don't want to spend a buck to fix it or just prefer to blow folks off for whatever reason. It's like the little guy constantly crying wolf. Pretty soon knowledgeable folks stop believing anything they say.

The problem could be fixed with tighter tolerances. Tighter tolerances cost money when you don't have great process controls and inherently accurate processes to begin with. So obviously they are taking the easy and cheap approach versus spending some money to eliminate a customer irritant. Not exactly customer driven, but there again people keep accepting this sort of thing and buying another one, so who's to say Harley is wrong?

Jerry

dlaws01 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2012, 05:47:49 PM »

Well, it's finally happened to me. At just over 14K on the speedo and I'm hearing a noise from the primary on start up. Sounds almost like the tensioner is too loose and that I can hear the chain sliding across it or something. It's not a metallic or pinging sound as some here have described and it seems to diminish as it get warmer and will disappear altogether when I engage the clutch. Can't hear it when in gear, only when stopped and in neutral. I've always kinda babied it and have rarely seen tach over 3500 rpm. I had read here that maybe if I "got on it" and wound it out some that it might ratchet up the tensioner and help so I tried that out. When I am in any gear running at approximately 2500 rpm and throttle it quickly to 3000-3300 rpm, I'm hearing a squealing or chirping type noise that last only for a couple of seconds then goes away, like it's only happening under a load. I haven't drained the primary oil yet to see if I have any metal or other particles in there. I've got the extended service plan but I'm really reluctant to let the local bozos at the dealer open it up yet. I'm sad.

Any ideas?

dlaws01 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 03, 2012, 10:13:51 PM »

Bike in shop at dealer. I'm at the mercy of who knows what? I'll post what the outcome is when I find out. No matter which way, on warranty or my dime, it's coming out of the shop with the SE comp. Now if you don't mind, I'm going to have a drink.

dlaws01 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 04, 2012, 02:59:29 PM »

When I dropped my bike off at the dealer, the service writer started it and agreed that there was some unusual sounds coming from the primary side. Today when I called to check on their progress I'm told . . . ( now I know that most of you guys already know what I was told ) . . . that the tech has listened to it and ridden it and everything is NORMAL! He tried to tell me that these 110's all make that noise and it wasn't unusual at all. I asked them if they didn't find it "unusual" that it didn't make this noise for over 14K miles and just started doing it? So far, they have done nothing at all but listen to it! Nobody has removed the outer primary and looked at anything! I'm really frustrated and PO'd that I cannot get proper service performed on my bike. This is the same dealer I bought it from new in 08. Does anybody know of any recourse that can be taken when the dealer refuses to acknowledge there is a problem, other than getting a lawyer?

Boatman · « **Reply #30 on:** April 04, 2012, 03:25:13 PM »

I don't know what to tell you. You could tell them to pull the primary cover and inspect. If nothing found wrong, it would be on your dime. If found defective, on their's. Personally, I wouldn't get a lawyer yet.

grc · « **Reply #31 on:** April 04, 2012, 03:56:23 PM »

Quote from: dlaws01 on April 04, 2012, 02:59:29 PM

When I dropped my bike off at the dealer, the service writer started it and agreed that there was some unusual sounds coming from the primary side. Today when I called to check on their progress I'm told . . . ( now I know that most of you guys already know what I was told ) . . . that the tech has listened to it and ridden it and everything is NORMAL! He tried to tell me that these 110's all make that noise and it wasn't unusual at all. I asked them if they didn't find it "unusual" that it didn't make this noise for over 14K miles and just started doing it? So far, they have done nothing at all but listen to it! Nobody has removed the outer primary and looked at anything! I'm really frustrated and PO'd that I cannot get proper service performed on my bike. This is the same dealer I bought it from new in 08. Does anybody know of any recourse that can be taken when the dealer refuses to acknowledge there is a problem, other than getting a lawyer?

Find another dealer. Since your bike is covered under the ESP and not the factory warranty, you don't have to go to a franchised Harley dealership. Check with the ESP administrator and find out which independents in your area are authorized to do ESP work.

Getting a lawyer won't faze the truly crappy dealers, they've probably been on the receiving end of tons of complaints and lawsuits already and consider it just another part of doing business. I would definitely contact H-D and let them know about the sorry service at that place. Harley doesn't seem to care much these days, but you never know when they might see the light and start using customer service as part of a dealership's evaluation.

Remember all of this if you decide to buy another bike or accessory in the future. If you continue to do business with that dealership, you can only blame yourself if you get screwed again.

Jerry

dlaws01 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 04, 2012, 04:09:11 PM »

Amen, I wouldn't want to get screwed twice by the same dealer. Give some other dealer a chance to get a piece! You are right about one thing, I'll think twice about what brand of motorcycle I buy next time.

Shovelhead · « **Reply #33 on:** April 04, 2012, 05:28:31 PM »

My best advice is find a good independent shop, I have yet to find a dealer I would allow to wash my bike, much less wrench on it.

I went with the SE Compensator & SOHB Wedge Tensioner, so far so good !

(see my signature)

Author Topic: Noise in Primary (Read 30459 times)