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Author Topic: Metzeler 888 Pressures  (Read 6038 times)

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efrbc1

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Metzeler 888 Pressures
« on: April 17, 2015, 05:51:27 PM »

Have had a set of ME 888's on my '05 Cherry for about 11K.  Rear is worn and needs to be replaced.  Usually get double the life out of the fronts (880's) but this front tire has started to cup and will be replaced also.  Have been running them at the same pressures as I did for the 880's (46 rear and 43 front).  Spoke with a rep from Metzeler today and he recommended (per their specs) running the rear at 38-40 and the front at 36-40 both of which are lower than the 880 recommendations.  Checked the tires and they both have 40 PSI as the max pressure marked on them. 

Any thoughts out there as to my "overpressure" in the front being the cause of the cupping?

The Metzeler rep is sending me the spec sheets for the 888 tire with load ratings, pressures etc.  Looks like I'll be running them at lower pressures from now on.......

Chris
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twinotter

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2015, 07:16:26 PM »

I'd run the max stated on the tire. Cupping front tires is usally caused by unwanted flex (scwirming) of the tread. Underinflation is a prime reason for cupping, and on some extra hard braking can do the same even on a properly inflated tire, but especially on one even a couple of lbs low.
I ruined a brand new Dunlop 591 front with two hard stops from 130 mph, the tire kind shredded in certain zones and hummed like the devil. I found it was at 28lbs instead of 30!!
I now check pressures COLD once a week, can't afford to give $$ away needlessly.  twinotter
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efrbc1

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2015, 09:28:38 PM »

Got the printed material from Metzeler and they call for 36-40 for an MT90-16 Front ME888.  I had been running at 42-43.  Wouldn't think that 2-3 lbs over would cause cupping but I'll be running 40 in the new one.

Chris
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mark

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2015, 09:41:37 PM »

I think some motorcycle tires are just prone to cupping.  I check my air pressure religiously and my last set cupped after they were about 3/4 worn.
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ric.sut32@gmail.com

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2022, 02:18:44 PM »

I joined this site just to set the records straight on tire pressure. As a tire designer of 42 plus years. The statement "set your pressure to the max on the tire" is wrong!!!. The max pressure on the tire sidewall is exactly that. It is the maximum pressure the tire can be safely inflated. The inflation pressure of a tire is dependent on load. For cars this inflation pressure is usually on the driver’s side door jam. Bikes on a frame sticker. This is the cold inflation pressure which means the tire has not been run to generate any additional heat from flexing. If you must add air in a hot tire situation it is recommended to add 4 PSI to the sticker pressure and recheck/adjust after a cooling period like overnight. Pressure recommendations also need to be adjusted for signigantly elevations above sea level and that data is on the net. This is THE answer as it follows the laws of physics and last time I checked gravity was pretty much the same and fairly stable. Now as a designer/test driver/and racer I do reduce pressures to increase contact patch size as desired. This does increase sidewall flexing and heat generation which increases wear and tire life. (FYI cupping is usually balance and sometimes suspension issues. Poor dynamic balancing accentuates harmonics which increases bounce. I always Road Force / match mount balance my cars. )
  I never go lower than 4 psi but again I am taking my own liberties and risk doing so. As a designer I cannot recommend anything different from manufactures specifications as that is what the vehicle passed DOT safety requirements with for highway approval... and my legal staff would have heart failure. I will say that modern vehicles air pressures and getting higher and this is related to noise and rolling resistance goals. Harder tires have smaller contact patches resulting in less fictional loses, less noise and increased gas mileage from lower rolling resistance. 
 For me the ride on the bike is far more important than the tire mileage so I play with lower air pressures and only use high performance top end tires that are VERY durable. Have fun, be safe and enjoy!
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SIKBIRD

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2022, 06:30:50 PM »

Well, I gotta ask…which high-end very durable tire does a tire designer use?
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ric.sut32@gmail.com

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2022, 07:11:49 PM »

Depends on the vehicle. For high performance like my 2021 BMW F900R it is the Michelin Sport GP hands down! This tire will make you feel like someone injected you with Le Mans racing skills. For my 1984 BMW R100CS and my 1969 XLCH Sportster the Metzler 888 tube type tire. On my 2021 Harley Road King the Metzler ME888 Marathon Ultra. Michelin excels in modern sport Bikes and cars not vintage or Harley. My BMW Cars run Pilot Sport A/S4 on daily driver M Sport 530 and Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on my BMW M Sport 330. On my 1 Ton Pick-up the Michelin Michelin XPS Traction. It has a steel carcass that is bullet proof yet rides with sport comfort. My Girlfriend runs the Pilot Sport Cup 2 on her Porsche Cayman. The 4S and Cup 2 do not work below 42degs. F. Summer tires only but we live the Blueridge mountains of N.C. so they work year round.   Hope that helps with some ideas. 
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SDCVO

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2022, 10:25:39 PM »

Depends on the vehicle. For high performance like my 2021 BMW F900R it is the Michelin Sport GP hands down! This tire will make you feel like someone injected you with Le Mans racing skills. For my 1984 BMW R100CS and my 1969 XLCH Sportster the Metzler 888 tube type tire. On my 2021 Harley Road King the Metzler ME888 Marathon Ultra. Michelin excels in modern sport Bikes and cars not vintage or Harley. My BMW Cars run Pilot Sport A/S4 on daily driver M Sport 530 and Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on my BMW M Sport 330. On my 1 Ton Pick-up the Michelin Michelin XPS Traction. It has a steel carcass that is bullet proof yet rides with sport comfort. My Girlfriend runs the Pilot Sport Cup 2 on her Porsche Cayman. The 4S and Cup 2 do not work below 42degs. F. Summer tires only but we live the Blueridge mountains of N.C. so they work year round.   Hope that helps with some ideas.
Very helpful, thanks!
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Alan

ric.sut32@gmail.com

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2022, 10:07:35 AM »

Glad to share. 
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Landshark

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2022, 07:37:16 AM »

Great info.
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ric.sut32@gmail.com

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2023, 11:03:08 AM »

Just and update on tire selection for my Harley Davidson Road King. A few months ago I mounted a set of the Metzeler Cruisetec Radials. I have been waiting for the Radial offerings for Large Cruisers to catch up with the rest of the motorcycle world. The radials did what I hoped for. Amazing comfort and handling improvements! I felt truly connected to the road like I do on all my "Modern" road bikes with Radials. (2021 BMW F900 and 2023 RS1250RS0). The radial also took out a significant amount of the high frequency vibration from road imperfections. The increased carcass compliance of the Radial Construction is responsible for that. (As we all know from our cars). Again, Mileage is NOT my criteria. Fun, Comfort and Handling are!
(Just a comment on the Michelin GP. This is a 50/50 Street/Track tire and I have 4000+ miles on them and are not showing any appreciable wear. I expect to get 10 to 15k. I take care of my balance and air pressure. I do not race or do burnouts but I drive assertively in the Blue Ridge Mountains if open roads are available. Most say the tire is only good for 3Kbut that is talk and/ or racers and donut burnout people. Drifters. I also do not over brake. I get 100k plus on rotors and pads on my BMW M cars because when breaking I am on/off to allow cooling even around town. Plan your stops and do the 1,2,3  On/Off  On/Off  On/Off even when coming to a red light from 45MPH. Allow for cooling time. Now when my radar detector goes off all conservative rules are off! FULL ON BRAKES.
     Here is the technical point that will require you own tire decision and for taking on product liability. Again, my Lawyer's at Michelin may cringe but here are the facts and I AM NOT MAKING ANY RECOMMENDATIONS. We are just discussing the LAW of PHYSICS.
     On my 2021 Road King. The rear fitment is 180/55B-18 80H RENIFTL. 80 Load Rating (992 lbs.) and H Speed Rating (130 MPH). (B is the designation for Bias Carcass Construction).
                        This is the O.E. Recommendation and no dealer will be able to recommend any other spec tire without taking on product liability. Even higher rating tires.   
                        The Metzeler Cruisetec I mounted is a 180/55ZR18-74W. 74 Load Rating (827 lbs.) and W Speed Rating (168 MPH). (R is the designation for Radial Carcass Construction).

     So yes, this tire has a load rating less than manufactures recommendations. Here is where the Law of physics and Tire Design come in. If I tested the Metzeler at and H Speed rating I could also increase the load rating. To get the higher speed rating for many of the modern bikes that can do 170mph stock the test load is lowered and load rating is less but those bikes don't weigh that much anyway. That is marketing. I know what speed I will be going on my Road King even for the split second wide open full speed throttle so I am not concerned. Also, to approach the load limit of the W rated tire I would have to ride around doing wheelies all the time and then again there are also design safety factors. Another detail. The R and ZR were old speed rating designations for less than or more than 150 mph (Z rated tires 150 mph+). This was before we had 220mph factory vehicles. That is why the Z and W were added after the Load Rating.
                                 Just a thought here. No recommendations. Have Fun and be Safe! Ric      The Harley is Still my Favorite!!
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Ironhorse

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2023, 03:18:58 PM »

I joined this site just to set the records straight on tire pressure. As a tire designer of 42 plus years. The statement "set your pressure to the max on the tire" is wrong!!!. The max pressure on the tire sidewall is exactly that. It is the maximum pressure the tire can be safely inflated. The inflation pressure of a tire is dependent on load. For cars this inflation pressure is usually on the driver’s side door jam. Bikes on a frame sticker. This is the cold inflation pressure which means the tire has not been run to generate any additional heat from flexing. If you must add air in a hot tire situation it is recommended to add 4 PSI to the sticker pressure and recheck/adjust after a cooling period like overnight. Pressure recommendations also need to be adjusted for signigantly elevations above sea level and that data is on the net. This is THE answer as it follows the laws of physics and last time I checked gravity was pretty much the same and fairly stable. Now as a designer/test driver/and racer I do reduce pressures to increase contact patch size as desired. This does increase sidewall flexing and heat generation which increases wear and tire life. (FYI cupping is usually balance and sometimes suspension issues. Poor dynamic balancing accentuates harmonics which increases bounce. I always Road Force / match mount balance my cars. )
  I never go lower than 4 psi but again I am taking my own liberties and risk doing so. As a designer I cannot recommend anything different from manufactures specifications as that is what the vehicle passed DOT safety requirements with for highway approval... and my legal staff would have heart failure. I will say that modern vehicles air pressures and getting higher and this is related to noise and rolling resistance goals. Harder tires have smaller contact patches resulting in less fictional loses, less noise and increased gas mileage from lower rolling resistance. 
 For me the ride on the bike is far more important than the tire mileage so I play with lower air pressures and only use high performance top end tires that are VERY durable. Have fun, be safe and enjoy!

So as a tire designer, I am going to open a "Can O'Worms" and ask some questions that will probably get me placed in time out again, or maybe even banished.

I own both a CVO Ultra and a New Generation Gold Wing.  Both vehicles have a strong following, and within that following is the subset of "DarkSiders",....guys who put car tires on bikes.

The DarkSider arguments FOR putting a car tire on a motorcycle usually fall into one of the below catagories.

They want maximum mileage at all costs.
It's a profit conspiracy by Motorcycle tire manufactures who "Rigged" the market with low mileage tires to FORCE riders to buy more tires.
The DarkSiders are "Free Thinkers" and not "Sheep" who follow the manufacturers guideline for tires and service.
The combined weight of rider and passanger is over 550 pounds and exceeds the rear tire load specifications.

As one who has been a motorcycle tire designer for 42 years, what is your position on running car tires on motorcycles?

I now submit myself to whatever punitive actions the moderators wish to take.




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ric.sut32@gmail.com

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2023, 04:09:07 PM »

Good Question! And the answer is NEVER mount car tires on a Motorcycle! Tires are designed differently for 4 wheel applications and can be dangerous if used in a two wheel application.
Lets just pick ONE big design point difference that is common to most automotive tire designs. There are always design variations and exceptions but this will get you in the upper 90 percentile bracket of safety. Automotive tires are designed with 2 steel belts and the wire angles of the belts range from 21 to 27 degrees from the rotational axis for most designs. The first belt angles one direction and the second belt angles the opposite direction. This this done to compensated for the lateral pull force that is developed from the belt angle. But there is a catch. Geometry! The first belt is laid closest to the axel and the second belt is laid on top of the first belt. Well the second belt has a slightly larger diameter than the first so the lateral forces to the inside and outside are not equally offset. There is always a slight residual lateral force on and automotive tire. Motorcycle tires are designed with ZERO Degree steel belts for this very reason. No residual lateral forces. We even switch the angle of the first and second belts for Japan as they drive on the opposite side of the road. Residual forces are designed to be compensate for road crown for one point. There are more but that is a PhD discussion and takes several years.

                         As I said, good Question !   You get a Gold Star.  Always remember, the only bad question is the one that did not get asked! 
                                  Motorcycle tire cost more mainly because the production numbers are small resulting in higher operating costs.
                             
                                                     Thanks!  Ric
                             
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Ironhorse

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2023, 04:45:03 PM »

Good Question! And the answer is NEVER mount car tires on a Motorcycle!                         

And yet riders (even members on this site) continue to run car tires on motorcycles.

Happy New Year
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ric.sut32@gmail.com

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Re: Metzeler 888 Pressures
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2023, 05:09:56 PM »

Unfortunately, and more so today, the facts are buried in the love for conspiracy and internet fact experts that are just regurgitating another's' post without knowledge. Mob rule! Storm the castle!

    As for people saying there tires were not designed to take the load of a full tour pack and rider, my Road King Stock rear tire is 180/55B-18 80 RENIFTL . 80 Load Rating (992 lbs). That's 160 lbs. more the the bike weighs just one tire! RENIFTL -> Reinforced.  Do the math and the laws of Physics will support you.


                               Safe riding to all!   It's supposed to be fun!  Ric
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