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[willyB]

How about a Screamin' Eagle CVO Sportster? You know, a slammin' hot rod around town bar hopper with some extra horsepower. Most likely affordable and most likely a profitable piece fror HD.

[LC110]

Maybe this one?

[Fired00d]

Maybe this one?

With a 120R motor in it.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired0d
 

[LC110]

Another view   http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-bizarre/harley-davidson-hoax/20429.html

[Aussie]

How about a Screamin' Eagle CVO Sportster? You know, a slammin' hot rod around town bar hopper with some extra horsepower. Most likely affordable and most likely a profitable piece fror HD.

My thoughts exactly, will open the doors to sportser riders, may even get one my self

[willyB]

Maybe this one?

Obviously this dealer is on the same page as many typical HD riders out there. Maybe this dealer is actually listening to his consumers when they are asking for HD to build a bike with some around town hot rod appeal.

I think this dealer clearly understands that HD must attract a much younger set of buyers. Maybe HD could sell a similar bike, Less the engine, as a special custom performer item with your choice of a dealer installed powerplants. Could this be a way around some of the EPA concerns with the 120R?

Does anybody remember the special order Dodge Neons that were sold for track racing? It came stripped down to the bones. Outside of no AC and no radio I think these things came without sound deadening, back seats, trunk liners etc.. The class was an out of the box racer that could only 5-point harnesses, tires and suspension adjustments.

[VaEagle]

Problem with a CVO Sportster would be that since it's the MOCOs lower price starter vehicle for many people you would be taking an affordable bike and making it less affordable to a young rider. They already have the build your own program for the Sportster crowd (something us bagger people don't have!) as well as some sporty versions already, then you have the V-rod muscle and other models too.
A younger rider who hasn't built in a brand loyalty yet will compare not only price but performance and ease of use (Can he just turn key and ride or does he have to spend thousands to get it to run right?).

I don't think MOCO could sell the 120R and bypass the EPA unless it's modified for street use. One thing to be a part that the customer added with the warning "for race use only" it's another thing to assemble it to begin with on a bike that otherwise would be a street bike. The reverse would be something like taking a destroyer drag bike that Harley sold and then trying to make it street legal.
I remember something in the past about EPA emission laws and it exempted small bike builders who only sold a couple bikes a year total but I think that is changed and the MOCO would never fit that category anyway due to total sales not just limited editions.

As far as a customer build your own CVO, I have mentioned that for years and so have others. I can see where dealers loose money on the parts sales and labor costs. But I can't help but think the factory could save in not having a bunch of stockpiled parts and paint that is not wanted by the customers and makes for slow moving bikes on the showroom floor. That way too the MOCO would be responding to customer's desires quicker than some survey done after purchase or dictating like Henry Ford "you can have any color you want as long as it's black".
Just my .02 but I think MOCO is hampered by having to not only meet EPA regulations with an old motor design (and those regulations are getting tighter all the time) but it's marketing of tradition which hampers bringing out new designs which would be able to compete power and handling wise. I had to chuckle to myself when MOCO came out with the ad for not being a sheep  and to be independent like a Harley rider. The visuals showed a group of riders all dressed similar in dark clothing and riding in formation on dark bikes. If you couldn't hear the ad it looked like a bunch of dark sheep in a herd. So where is the independence? I am probably crazy but if MOCO did have a true build your own program for all models wouldn't that back up the independent theme they want to project? "May not be the fastest or best handling but it's a darn good package overall just the way you want it not dictated to you with one or two colors or models like the other guys!"

[kraut]

... I don't think MOCO could sell the 120R and bypass the EPA unless it's modified for street use. ...

The German subsidiary tossed out some 120Rs and more or less forced dealers to sell them. Several got their builds approved for street use by our authorities so EPA should not be a real problem.

[Midnight Rider]

The EPA regs are going to continue to give HD fits on the A/C Vtwins.  But, they've also known this was coming for YEARS.  Other manufacturers of air cooled bikes seem to be able to meet EPA regs and build engines that don't run nearly so hot.  They can do it too, but it's going to cause some redesign to AT LEAST have better oil cooling of the engine.  But, there are limits on how big they can make the engines and still keep them cool enough and meet EPA regs at the same time.  And it's not the EPA's "fault", as everybody plays on the same field and others meet the standards.  VW Beetles are a good example of what happens when air cooling cannot keep up with mandates, and at the same time give customers what they want with regards to air conditioning, automatic trannies, and other "creature comforts".

Look how long it took for HD to put brakes on a 900 lb bike that would actually STOP the damn thing reasonably well.  That ain't rocket science.  Neither is better suspension.  HD does things to improve, but they do so kicking and screaming the whole way because it cuts into their bottom line to some extent, and is generally WAY behind the curve of technology.

[Wild Card]

Obviously this dealer is on the same page as many typical HD riders out there. Maybe this dealer is actually listening to his consumers when they are asking for HD to build a bike with some around town hot rod appeal.

I think this dealer clearly understands that HD must attract a much younger set of buyers. Maybe HD could sell a similar bike, Less the engine, as a special custom performer item with your choice of a dealer installed powerplants. Could this be a way around some of the EPA concerns with the 120R?

Does anybody remember the special order Dodge Neons that were sold for track racing? It came stripped down to the bones. Outside of no AC and no radio I think these things came without sound deadening, back seats, trunk liners etc.. The class was an out of the box racer that could only 5-point harnesses, tires and suspension adjustments.

Harley certainly understands the need for younger buyers too!  There are still EPA regulations to contend with, but Harley already is attracting the young buyers by offering this type of customization through its H-D1 Factory Customization.  Check it out.  It's on the website.

[Spiderman]

Really cool Dyna you've shown us willyb  I see a few things I don't recognize. What can you tell us about it ?

As to the issue of EPA Regs etc, everyone seems to believe the only way to cure that ill is a water cooled engine. I believe all of the Mfgs Terry is speaking to when he says they have had no issues are water cooled. I had a 2005 Screamin Eagle V-Rod. I loved it. It was absolutely insane by the time I made a few mods to it. It literally was all I could do to hang onto it. And the sound with a Thunderheaer was pure Italian supercar. Insane. BUT, it didn' look like a Harley, it didn't sound like a Harley. That's ok for one model. Indeed there are a lot of H-D owners who might not be if not for the V-Rod. It is an excellent machine and I am not putting it down. BUT, I have to wonder IF (once) H-D goes to a bagger with a radiator and the classic Harley look is gone, how man customers are going to stop and ask themselves "should I go look at Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda et al ?" When a Harley no longer looks like a Harley what are we buying ? What's next after the radiator ? Gas tanks that look like stamped out parts with big wide ridge seams like all the metrics ? Sharply machined corners here and there become rounded out and overall the bike begins to look like it's been given a dose of Prednosone ?  I began this post by talking about the V-Rod because the V-Rod is a very nice motorcycle and very well designed and mfg'd. It looks great and runs better BUT, does it look like anything else H-D sells ? That is the crux of this issue for me. No matter what H-D does with the radiator, it's gonna be there. It's gonna take a lot of space and it's gonna radically alter the lines of the motorcycle. You can stop by your local H-D dealership and pick up a 2012 Road King. The next day you could be riding it somewhere and a guy (or girl) on a 1946 Knucklehead or a 1960 Panhead Dual-Glide could pull up beside you at a stop light. The link between that older Harley and yours would be unmistakable. Once that link is broken it's broken forever.

As Carl Hubbard would say - - "there endeth the lesson "

B B 
 

[willyB]

Really cool Dyna you've shown us willyb  I see a few things I don't recognize. What can you tell us about it ?

As to the issue of EPA Regs etc, everyone seems to believe the only way to cure that ill is a water cooled engine. I believe all of the Mfgs Terry is speaking to when he says they have had no issues are water cooled. I had a 2005 Screamin Eagle V-Rod. I loved it. It was absolutely insane by the time I made a few mods to it. It literally was all I could do to hang onto it. And the sound with a Thunderheaer was pure Italian supercar. Insane. BUT, it didn' look like a Harley, it didn't sound like a Harley. That's ok for one model. Indeed there are a lot of H-D owners who might not be if not for the V-Rod. It is an excellent machine and I am not putting it down. BUT, I have to wonder IF (once) H-D goes to a bagger with a radiator and the classic Harley look is gone, how man customers are going to stop and ask themselves "should I go look at Yamaha, Suzuki, Honda et al ?" When a Harley no longer looks like a Harley what are we buying ? What's next after the radiator ? Gas tanks that look like stamped out parts with big wide ridge seams like all the metrics ? Sharply machined corners here and there become rounded out and overall the bike begins to look like it's been given a dose of Prednosone ?  I began this post by talking about the V-Rod because the V-Rod is a very nice motorcycle and very well designed and mfg'd. It looks great and runs better BUT, does it look like anything else H-D sells ? That is the crux of this issue for me. No matter what H-D does with the radiator, it's gonna be there. It's gonna take a lot of space and it's gonna radically alter the lines of the motorcycle. You can stop by your local H-D dealership and pick up a 2012 Road King. The next day you could be riding it somewhere and a guy (or girl) on a 1946 Knucklehead or a 1960 Panhead Dual-Glide could pull up beside you at a stop light. The link between that older Harley and yours would be unmistakable. Once that link is broken it's broken forever.

As Carl Hubbard would say - - "there endeth the lesson "

B B 
 

Actually, Old Lefty brought this to our attention. There is a link above that goes over the details. Pretty cool I must say.

[LC110]

Give Skillet the credit. His link took me to this oustanding dealer built bike.
If MOCO would build that bike with a 120 in it, I would have one in my garage.
mmmm wonder if I could get a 120 in my 04 FXDXI?

[Midnight Rider]

BB...no, actually the Yamaha Stratoliner is the bike I had in mind with my comment, and it is air/oil cooled.  The 2012 Deluxe now has a fairing with Zumo 665, Ipod, etc.  No lowers and no TP, but hard saddlebags.  The engine is the same engine I had in the '06 Strat I had...1854CC (113") 48 degree VTwin, with 4 valves per cylinder (pushrod operated), two 43mm Throttlebodies (vertical downdraft), 2 spark plugs per cylinder, Ceramic coated cylinders for heat dispersion.  Other stuff.  It's one of the closest in looks (the engine) to a HD, other than there is no primary.  Virtually the same RPM band, with maximum TQ at 2500 RPM.  Runs on REGULAR gas.  Better suspension front and rear.  Great brakes.  Hydraulic Clutch, blah, blah, blah.  It even sounds a lot like a HD VTwin...not the same, but close.  It's not perfect either.  It's a very nice bike in present configuration (Deluxe).  I had no issues with mine other than they only had one model (at the time), and it was very much like a Road King.  I like a full fairing for a number of reasons.  It's not a HD though.

The only point is that HD could do some things to make the engines run cooler, without necessarily going to water cooling, though that is inevitable in the long run.  BMW boxer engines are still air/oil cooled.  Not apples to apples, I know.  But, things can be done with design of engine components to get them where they need to be and still maintain the whole "HD" thing.  I wouldn't take anything for my SERGU...it's the perfect bike for me.  But, I don't look forward to having to do some kind of engine work at 30K or sooner (50/50 chance, at best) due to chitty lifters, valve stem seals, crankshaft...whatever.  The odds are pretty good something will need to be done well before it "should" need to be done.

But, getting back to the point...there is NO reason HD can't put better suspension on the bikes.  They ALL need it, including the VRod.  If they did it at the factory, it MIGHT cost them $500 per unit to put something really decent under the bike, and the typical HD customer would not think twice about a $500 increase in price, particularly if they are getting something real in the process.  In cases like that, it's either HD just doesn't GAS, thinks people are happy with things the way they are (mistaken thinking), or is simply 5 years or more behind the curve.  So, those of us who know change things like that out to aftermarket products of one kind or another.  I'd rather just pay for it up front and be done.

2013?  Paint and do dads...

[prstaples1911]

As I read the responses in this thread I think we all have ideas for improvement and they are all valid too.   Now let me run this by you.  What would you think if the Motor Company offered a true custom built bike that you would go to the dealer and basically build and order a bike like "you want it" with a variety of colors, patterns, graphics, accessories, seats, wheels, etc. and could have it built and delivered in 45 to 60 days from reciept of order. Would we as consumers be willing to pay a premium to have a bike this way.  I would!!.   This may be a logistical nightmare for a manufacture and would have limitations on the numbers of units produced.

Just curious what your thoughts may be.

Thanks

I did this with my MINI.  It took 6 months to get here from the UK, but I got exactly what I wanted and didn't put money int it after the sale to make it mine.  Given the huge accessories catalog, I think that should be easier than we think.