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CVO Social => Other Topics => Topic started by: Hoist! on February 13, 2007, 05:34:42 PM
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I like this as it gives the other side of the helmet arguement. You Nolan guys will never agree on this but, we should be able to choose. And everyone should know how to drive! ;) Hoist! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR)
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I like this as it gives the other side of the helmet arguement. You Nolan guys will never agree on this but, we should be able to choose. And everyone should know how to drive! ;) Hoist! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR)
Can disagree with hardly a word the guy says. All other things being equal (or safe) I'd much rather ride without the lid. And it's true that riding with the helmet is almost as dangerous as riding without. The important distinction there being the "almost."
Truth be told mine isn't on for the extra bit of safety (at least not primarily). Mine is on, in states where it's my choice, just because I can't hear anymore at the end of a good day in the saddle if I didn't have it on.
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I like this as it gives the other side of the helmet arguement. You Nolan guys will never agree on this but, we should be able to choose. And everyone should know how to drive! ;) Hoist! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR)
Howie,
He makes good points about rider education and stiffer fines for drunk drivers...but he's way off base in saying helmets restrict your vision. Even a full face helmet has at least 190 degrees of vision (95 on each side). You're peripheral vision is limited to about 170 (85 degrees on each side.) It is a big falacy that helmets restrict vision. Second, he states that hitting something at higher than 14 mph and the helmet will do you no good. Again, that's a falacy. I'm living proof on that one. I was t-boned by a guy doing 35 mph in a pickup...if it hadn't of been for my helmet, they would still be scraping my brains off of the road and I wouldn't be here to talk about it. You've got just as much chance getting your neck broken without a helmet on as you do with one on, if your helmet is fitted properly. I don't have a problem with the right to chose, I just don't like people tearing helmets down when they don't have their facts straight. I do fully indorse making everyone take the MSF course. Rider education is necessary...but so is getting the cagers to recognize a motorcyclist on the road. The most common excuse a cage driver gives when they've hit a motorcyclist is, "I didn't see him." Sorry to be soaping on this one...but I'm a passionate advocate of helmets. You will never see me ride without one. This is just my $0.02 :soapbox:
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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I'm living proof on that one.
Thank goodness for that. There are lots (and lots and lots and lots) of accident that people survive that make up that "slightly safer" edge in the statistics. It's real, and absolutely so. Overall raw numbers aren't great compared to overall number of motorists. But we're a small part of that cohort to begin with.
Many accidents are of a type that would wipe us out no matter what we were wearing. Those in the margins, however, are where the make or break (pardon the pun) decisions on overall safety seem to be made though.
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Howie, Don and all, I know this is a personal choice in those juristictions where we can choose, but personally I would never ride without a helmet. Some of what the guy says I agree with - better training, stiffer sentencing for dui, no eating, cell phone, etc, would make the road much safer. But what about single vehicle crashes like I had in MV. All this would not have helped me and without a helmet, well we won't go there.
The statement about Dale Earnhart is just plain wrong. He died because the g-forces ruptured his aorta as I recall. Had nothing to do with his helmet.
There is an impact standard (for D.O.T. and Snell) but the majority of motorcycle head injuries is NOT due to impact but rather injury to the brain as it shifts inside the skull and slides along the surface (which is not smooth and allows the brain to scrape inself on bony bumps). Purpose of helmet is that as the soft foam crushes it allows the brain to decelerate which helps reduce injury to it.
Somewhere I think on the site there was a posting of an excellent article by Prof. Harry Hurt in Motorcycle Consumer News, February 2005. I'll try to find the link and post it.
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Not by law.
My choice, not theirs.
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Harry Hurt article - here it is in PDF (Adobe Acrobat) format. Could not get entire article - had to download 3 files named page 1, page 2, page 3.
Here is Page 1
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Page 2
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Page 3
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I like this as it gives the other side of the helmet arguement. You Nolan guys will never agree on this but, we should be able to choose. And everyone should know how to drive! ;) Hoist! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR)
Make it simple...Given a choice, would you choose to allow yourself to fall face forward on the pavement...no hands, no bending of legs...just fall over like a tree...with or without a helmet on? From a distance of just standing on your own two feet. How about standing on top of a 4 foot wall? Now if I push you off a building 100 feet tall, it probably won't matter whether you have one on or not, but if you KNOW something is likely to keep you from being hurt when circumstances are within parameters where it's likely to do so, do you prefer to be certain?
Wearing a helmet reduces the chances of busting your head wide a$$ed open on the pavement or on the side of somebody's car...period. No arguement can be made otherwise. All the woulda', coulda', shoulda's in the world don't matter a bit when you've got your brains in your hands...but if you choose to explore that possibility, just make sure I don't have to pay for your nurse.
In the end, it's about reducing risk, and a GOOD helmet (not a tupperware bowl), reduces risk. To me, it's the same as riding in boxer shorts and flip flops...
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Sorry to be soaping on this one...but I'm a passionate advocate of helmets. You will never see me ride without one.:soapbox:
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
I am 110% with you on this one Red. I think this has become so intertwined with the politics of don't force me to do it that the safety aspect gets lost. Not a believer in government / big brother intervention but gotta say that without some political muscle doubt we'd have air bags, crumple zones, etc, and we sure as heck would not buckle up.:soapbox:
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Helmet-full face! Three years ago I had a 2001 HD Road King. I was going 60mph and a suv going in the opposite direction turned in front of me, there was nothing I could do in time except hold while I hit it after I hit the suv the bike went on its side with me on it, The roll bar bent over against my leg. My helmet was scrapping against the asphalt, 147ft later the bike stopped. I crawed out from underneath the bike and walked too the side of the road, I looked at my leg and saw bones. When they took off my helmet you could barely see thru the shield it was so badly scratched. The top of my head had a little scratch but no head injuries. The harley was totaled. It took 31/2 months to recover. While I recovered I ordered a 2004 o/b FLHTCSE. I have 23k on it now. I believe if I would not had that helmet on I wouldnt have much of a face left. I am a firm believer of wearing a full face helmet.
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I am 110% with you on this one Red. I think this has become so intertwined with the politics of don't force me to do it that the safety aspect gets lost. Not a believer in government / big brother intervention but gotta say that without some political muscle doubt we'd have air bags, crumple zones, etc, and we sure as heck would not buckle up.:soapbox:
No doubt about that, Jerry. I think the government does have a role to play in the safety of it's citizens...granted, it's a fine line to walk, and constantly being redrawn, but I didn't want to wear a seatbelt either...now I unconsiously buckle up. It's not about freedom to choose...I may be playing Russian Roulette every time I get on a bike, but my gun just has one bullet instead of two...
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Helmet-full face! Three years ago I had a 2001 HD Road King. I was going 60mph and a suv going in the opposite direction turned in front of me, there was nothing I could do in time except hold while I hit it after I hit the suv the bike went on its side with me on it, The roll bar bent over against my leg. My helmet was scrapping against the asphalt, 147ft later the bike stopped. I crawed out from underneath the bike and walked too the side of the road, I looked at my leg and saw bones. When they took off my helmet you could barely see thru the shield it was so badly scratched. The top of my head had a little scratch but no head injuries. The harley was totaled. It took 31/2 months to recover. While I recovered I ordered a 2004 o/b FLHTCSE. I have 23k on it now. I believe if I would not had that helmet on I wouldnt have much of a face left. I am a firm believer of wearing a full face helmet.
Great first post jackhddWelcome! I too wear a helmet all times but could not of said that several years ago. After a several close calls and I think the looking cool not wearing a helmet days are over for me. Ride on!!
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Riding without a helmet is akin to playing football without a cup; real macho, but dumb as hell. The only statement made by those who oppose helmets that I can agree with is the one concerning comfort in hot weather. That is offset by the improved comfort and reduced noise when moving (never was a big fan of bugs, rocks, etc. in the face, or wind causing my eyes to tear up). I've worn full face helmets (Arai, then Shoei) since '82, and I've never experienced reduced vision issues. I have had more than one occasion to catch road debris in the face over those years, and that full face helmet saved me from some very serious damage and a possible crash. I wouldn't consider riding without it.
Jerry
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Howie, Don and all, I know this is a personal choice in those juristictions where we can choose, but personally I would never ride without a helmet. Some of what the guy says I agree with - better training, stiffer sentencing for dui, no eating, cell phone, etc, would make the road much safer. But what about single vehicle crashes like I had in MV. All this would not have helped me and without a helmet, well we won't go there.
The statement about Dale Earnhart is just plain wrong. He died because the g-forces ruptured his aorta as I recall. Had nothing to do with his helmet.
There is an impact standard (for D.O.T. and Snell) but the majority of motorcycle head injuries is NOT due to impact but rather injury to the brain as it shifts inside the skull and slides along the surface (which is not smooth and allows the brain to scrape inself on bony bumps). Purpose of helmet is that as the soft foam crushes it allows the brain to decelerate which helps reduce injury to it.
Somewhere I think on the site there was a posting of an excellent article by Prof. Harry Hurt in Motorcycle Consumer News, February 2005. I'll try to find the link and post it.
Jerry, I do agree with you. As much as part of me might prefer to be without the lid I do agree. The part of what the guy said that was hard to argue against is that the statistical difference between without and without is surprisingly small. But it's one of those screwy things with stat's, it can also depend on how they are studied.
We are, without doubt, safer with the lid on. Safer from both traumatic injury and from more minor injuries as well. At least so long as those injuries are above the neck of course. I've seen the numbers crunched (the same sets of numbers) to show as little as 2% difference in injury and mortality stats and as much as 25% or so. Real numbers probably somewhere in between. So the helmet is obviously not an end-all and be-all of protection and safety. But we are definitely at least slightly safer with it on. And from that everyone has to make their decision on use.
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No doubt about that, Jerry. I think the government does have a role to play in the safety of it's citizens...granted, it's a fine line to walk, and constantly being redrawn, but I didn't want to wear a seatbelt either...now I unconsiously buckle up. It's not about freedom to choose...I may be playing Russian Roulette every time I get on a bike, but my gun just has one bullet instead of two...
This is where the numbers come in to play again though. Large numbers of people in cars. Large numbers of real and potential liabilities for not employing contemporarily standard and accepted safety measures. So lobbying efforts diminish that worked against regulators mandating belts, air bags, etc etc etc. What regulators wished, but could have only gotten done more slowly, they were allowed to do because the numbers/costs involved now suggested that going along was the better option.
With helmet laws it is, or it can be, a different numbers game though. The road, writ large, isn't built for the motorcycling public as its first consideration. That's a given and without dispute. Yet we get to use the road system for no greater cost than our cage riding compatriots. For that privilige we thank the road builders (government) and try to stay out of their way in the hope that they'll stay out of ours and give us as little attention as possible.
It can't be argued, however, that we (bike riders) don't have a disproportionately greater number of injury accidents per miles driven than cage drivers. It's just a matter of fact. Nothing new there so nothing to argue about. What that translates to, however, is that we "cost more" per miles driven than the cage driver. Our overall social cost is greater because our injuries and their concomitant cost on society are more common and greater.
That being so governments have a real right to regulate us. Some would even say they have a responsibility to do so. We cost others so we should be made to be as safe as possible. That being so it begs the question why don't all jurisdictions require helmets? It's again because of numbers. Relatively speaking there are few enough of us that the extra costs we incur are borne without hardship or harm to the local and larger communities. But know for a fact that if we got too loud and obnoxious, or too expensive, all that would change in a heartbeat. There's just not enough of us to turn the tide otherwise.
We are not who the road builders build for (nor, given our numbers, should we be). We are not society's primary responsibility on the open road. Those responsibilities are the national economy/commerce those roads facilitate and the machines that make those go and the families of four that make up the large majority of the rest of the motoring miles covered. We do ourselves the best service when we recognize our potential relative costs versus the gains we enjoy by having that great road system open to us. Then we best ought just keep our mouths shut, enjoy the sunset on the horizon in front of us, lean back, put our feet on the pegs and enjoy the ride; even if we have to wear a helmet to do so.
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This is where the numbers come in to play again though. ... Then we best ought just keep our mouths shut, enjoy the sunset on the horizon in front of us, lean back, put our feet on the pegs and enjoy the ride; even if we have to wear a helmet to do so.
Twolaner,
Very well put. This is an issue that will never be totally agreed upon. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the right to chose...but on the flip side of that, if you choose not to wear a helmet, and get in an accident that causes you to become an veggie, I shouldn't have to pay (through higher premiums, etc.) for your medical care. Unfortunately, you're right to choose just doesn't affect you if it goes wrong. It affects everyone as a whole, in one way or another. Why would you want to knowingly go out in a vehicle that provides you 100% less protection than a car, and not want to wear the proper safety gear, that's anologous to knowingly going into combat with an unloaded gun. I always get a kick out of non-helmet wearers. They have their leathers, boots, gloves, every proper riding attire, but yet leave unprotected the one part of their body that is probably the most important, their head. And those that wear the skid-lids (those "helmets" sold as novelty items), just to meet the intent of the law, are no better off than the one that doesn't wear a helmet at all. We should have the right to choose how we want to right, but along with that right comes the responsibility give yourself the best chance of survival out on those highways that weren't built with us motorcyclists in mind.
Thanks Howie for starting this...this is always a very passionate, if you can't tell, subject for me.
Cheers to all :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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Twolaner,
Very well put. This is an issue that will never be totally agreed upon. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the right to chose...but on the flip side of that, if you choose not to wear a helmet, and get in an accident that causes you to become an veggie, I shouldn't have to pay (through higher premiums, etc.) for your medical care. Unfortunately, you're right to choose just doesn't affect you if it goes wrong. It affects everyone as a whole, in one way or another. Why would you want to knowingly go out in a vehicle that provides you 100% less protection than a car, and not want to wear the proper safety gear, that's anologous to knowingly going into combat with an unloaded gun. I always get a kick out of non-helmet wearers. They have their leathers, boots, gloves, every proper riding attire, but yet leave unprotected the one part of their body that is probably the most important, their head. And those that wear the skid-lids (those "helmets" sold as novelty items), just to meet the intent of the law, are no better off than the one that doesn't wear a helmet at all. We should have the right to choose how we want to right, but along with that right comes the responsibility give yourself the best chance of survival out on those highways that weren't built with us motorcyclists in mind.
Thanks Howie for starting this...this is always a very passionate, if you can't tell, subject for me.
Cheers to all :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
Red,
I am surprised you've bought into this tired old line about people sustaining head injuries while involved in a motocycle accident without the protection of a helmet. Abate and a bunch of other biker rights organizations have proved this to be the most rediculous of arguments. Without remembering the exact statistics, the numbers show that A) accidents per miles ridden are far lower for motorcycles than automobiles, trucks etc. B) that the percentage of people involved in motorcycle accidents who become vegatative is absolutely miniscule. When you factor in the number of motorcycles compared to the number of autos etc you see how totally false this claim is. The truth is that you do pay for folks who are injured in any number of ways involving every facet of life who have no health insurance. I'm not going off on that rant lest someone call me a freakin liberal again. At the end of the day, wearing a helmet has saved my face in an accident in June of 05 and saved me from cracking my skull open when I was younger. I simply do not feel comfortable without one on anymore. My friends in Florida try to get me to go without one but I feel it's my choice to wear one just as it's their's not to. And that is the crux of the issue. Freedom of choice.
B B
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Good points all. Just wish there were some "actual" statistics of the social cost of injured riders. Can only extrapolate from those I know but all have health insurance so doubt they would be much of a drain on society if injured. What about those who fragrantly violate social norms by driving recklessly and/or under the influence? Don't know but bet more of them don't have insurance just from what I've seen and read. But I do know (and will not be moved from this) that a D.O.T. helmet will most definitely offer some protection in case your head hits the pavement or some other object. That crap about it breaking your neck is just that - crap. Kind of like the old argument that a seatbelt could cause you to break your neck or trap you in a burning/submerging car. Odds are so tremendously much greater that a seatbelt in a car and helmet on a motorcycle will protect you more often than hurt you. Just do not understand how anyone can rationally argue differently. I'm no expert but have read and studied this and it makes sense to me. You are right Red, it is a passionate subject. And I defer to any informed rider who wishes to go lidless. My only concern is those who may be younger, impressionable and maybe less informed who may come to the wrong conclusion. I'm off my :soapbox: now.
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I spend my life behind the wheel of a big truck for a living and see what idiots do every day out here, there's an amazing amount of cose calls every day that go unreported. I was in one of those t-bone, idiot turned left in front of me at 55mph. I got all over the brakes, had the clutch in, stayed in control and hit hard. However, instead of 55 by the time I hit I was probably going 25mph. My head and helmet left a round indentation on the cars door/roof line. 40 - 50 feet later I landed on the pavement head first. At worst, the helmet allowed for the chance for my funeral to be open casket. At best, as it turned out, I walked...ok stumbled away....once I woke up that is. Luckily I don't remember a thing. I don't preach - to each his own. Give me 100 degree afternoon in the badlands and I will give the lid a break also. Anytime you ride you take risk. Most of us have a thousand dollars or so in leathers, its not to spit in the face of PETA, its to manage risk. That said, I support choice, should we allow the state to manage all our risk? If we do that, in a few years motorcycles may be outlawed. :o
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Ceej
By the way, meant to mention it before - - Totally Awesome Pumpkin Dude ! Only one on the site that's better is Grover's IMMO
B B
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There have been days gone by that I was known to scoot down the highway without a helmet.....when I was much younger. I was wearing a helmet during the two accidents I've had. The second time the helmet saved my life. Of that I am convinced. I wear a helmet whenever I ride now......even when I have a choice. My gripe is this: I think it should be just that.......a choice.
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Red,
I am surprised you've bought into this tired old line about people sustaining head injuries while involved in a motocycle accident without the protection of a helmet. Abate and a bunch of other biker rights organizations have proved this to be the most rediculous of arguments. Without remembering the exact statistics, the numbers show that A) accidents per miles ridden are far lower for motorcycles than automobiles, trucks etc. B) that the percentage of people involved in motorcycle accidents who become vegatative is absolutely miniscule. When you factor in the number of motorcycles compared to the number of autos etc you see how totally false this claim is. The truth is that you do pay for folks who are injured in any number of ways involving every facet of life who have no health insurance. I'm not going off on that rant lest someone call me a freakin liberal again. At the end of the day, wearing a helmet has saved my face in an accident in June of 05 and saved me from cracking my skull open when I was younger. I simply do not feel comfortable without one on anymore. My friends in Florida try to get me to go without one but I feel it's my choice to wear one just as it's their's not to. And that is the crux of the issue. Freedom of choice.
B B
BB,
While I can't argue with you on your statements about ABATE and other biker rights organizations, I will state this. They have an agenda, like any organization does, and the numbers can be tweaked in any direction to make your point. I'm not saying ABATE is wrong, but they do have an agenda. Like I stated, I'm all for the right to choose. And I choose to be protected. And believe it or not BB, it's not a tired old line, there are more serious head injuries to unhelmeted riders than those that choose to wear helmets. That doesn't take numbers to prove, that just takes life experiences, that I'm sure there are a bunch of them in this group, including yourself, that can testify to that. Like I would tell my students in my MSF courses: "There's two types of riders, those that have had accidents, and those that are going to have one." Facts and figures aside, from both sides of the arguement, common sense tells you, the better protected you are, the better chance you have. Like I said earlier, we all wear our leathers and boots, and gloves. Why? To protect ourselves, if we go down. Why doesn't that same logic apply to a helmet? Is it because we are told, in many states, that we have to wear one that we try to "fight the man" and not wear one and cry we should have the right to choose? Would we cry freedom of choice if those same states made it mandatory to wear leathers and boots all the time? I don't know. God, I'm sorry guys....I'll shut up now. :-[
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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I wear one always, but believe in choice. Next we will have to wear seat belts. :-\
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I wear one always, but believe in choice. Next we will have to wear seat belts. :-\
Honda is going to equip their Goldwings with an airbag. http://world.honda.com/news/2005/2050908.html (http://world.honda.com/news/2005/2050908.html).
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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And air bags and air suits and 100 cc motors ad nauseum. I don't want to support fat people who won't diet, smokers who won't quit, speeders that won't slow down or idiots just too stupid to live but so it goes. Any agenda of getting government off our backs is a good one, anyone who wants to call me names for my choice of a helmet, of all things, well I don't care for you either. It's really pretty black and white - you want to wear a lid or not, fine w/ me. I'll stick with wearing one when I want too.
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As far as stats go I remember an article that was trying to compare head injuries without helmets. It went on to use the stats from Fl when helmets were required to when they were not. During the period that they were LAW there were fewer fatalities with people not wearing a helmet. (It was LAW to wear them) As you can see numbers can be used any way one wants to manipulate them.
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I don't even remember when we didn't have helmet laws over here in the UK. I would never consider riding without one and have recently decided to change from my open face helmet to one with an open chin, but full visor. We also have mandatory seat belt laws over here and they have, without doubt saved countless lives. We will soon have mandatory seat belt laws for the rear passengers as well which can only be a good thing.
You can always find some cases where the safety law has caused a problem, but in the vast majority of cases they have saved lives or reduced serious injury.
Nige
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I've always worn a helmet, regardless of the local laws. I think it just makes good sense.
The guy on the video talks about how a helmet would be useless above 50 mph. Tell that to the professional riders in the MotoGP and Superbike races, as well as any motocross or flat track racer. Watch those crash videos on youtube--those road race guys sometimes have spectacular crashes well above 100 mph yet they are rarely seriously injured. Every one of them wears a full coverage helmet.
It would seem to me that, in the event of an accident at any speed, under any circumstances, wearing a helmet would have a much greater chance of helping than doing additional harm.
Even outside of serious accidents, I've been struck by pebbles, and who knows what else, hard enough to leave a permanent mark on my helmet--those objects striking my head would certainly have hurt at least, and may have hit hard enough to cause injury--who knows. But I don't worry about that because the helmet takes the blow.
And studies (Hurt Report, I believe) indicate that the single thing most effective in making a rider more visible to cars is to wear a white helmet. If having the thing prevents a car from hitting me in the first place, then it's done it's job quite nicely.
IMO, there are far more and better reasons to wear one than to not wear one.
[POSSIBLE THREAD DRIFT ALERT] Florida is a helmet optional state. I see a definite difference in riders down here. I would guess that about 60-70% of Harley riders do not wear helmets while about 90% of Metric riders (cruisers and tourers as well as crotch rockets) do wear them. I just think that's an interesting cultural difference. Marketing or other factors? I will add that I seem to also notice that helmet usage by the HD crowd seems to be creeping up.
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Plain & Simple.....let the rider decide ! Personaly I take advantage of the " no helmet law" (when I can) Because I'm "Forced" to wear one in Massachusetts. Not to mention, to me there is nothing like the feeling of the wind rushing trough my hair, and the feeling of openess all around me, but I respect anyone that makes the choice to keep their faces pretty, and brains in tact. Somebody here wrote, and I'll quote " we take risks everyday" anything can happened at any time....but here's something to concider....next time you get on a plane, and elevate to 30,000+ feet....why don't they require helmets on planes?? That makes sence to me....hell...that little seat belt doesn't make me feel very safe, but we all fly anyway, knowing the risk! and one more little tid bit while I'm on a safety issue....why do my kids get on a bus without seatbelts, when my state has a " Seatbelt Law" ? WHY.....BECAUSE OUR POLITICS ARE RUN BY HIPOCRITES !!!
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Every sport where you participate in the open...kayaking, climbing, cycling, etc, etc...the vast majority of people wear a helmet. Wearing helmets is on the increase even in snow skiing...i wear one. I have a deep scrape mark on the front of it which would have been my forehead had I not had it on when I face planted on packed powder snow. I am no novice skier, so anyone can have an unexpected fall at any time. If I'm participating in any activity where my head is traveling at a speed faster than I can walk or run, I'm going to have a helmet on.
Any argument made to say that a helmet does not help prevent head injury in the event of impact is illogical. Proponents against helmet laws are making their arguments based on emotions and not logic. If your head hits a stationary object, even at speeds as low as 10MPH, it is going to sustain some kind of more serious injury without a helmet than with one. Period. Your brain cavity is not made to protect it's contents when an impact occurs at a greater speed than falling down from a standing position. Even then it can sustain serious injury. To propel it through space on purpose at great speed (relatively speaking) and not protect it...the odds are against you. Period.
Everytime anyone gets on a bike without a helmet....just take a moment to think about how it would feel if someone came up behind you and took a half strength swing with a baseball bat to your head...I mean, really imagine how it would feel... and whether you feel lucky today, and whether you want to ride again tomorrow.
Oh, and by the way, the second most likely part of your body to get seriously injured in a motorcycle accident is your feet (obviously your hands will be hurt if you go down)...so when you hit the starter without a helmet on, slip into those sandals as well. Then you can get matching chrome crutches to go with that plate in your head.
It's your choice though...and this is not meant in disrespect of anyone's choices here. I just care about my fellow riders.
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I happen to be pro choice in just about everything. I will not call you names or make fun of you if you choose TO-or NOT TO wear a helmet. I wear the smallest one I could find. YES I've been in an accident. Helmet made no difference as I flew OVER a car. smarts helped some. just tucked in a ball and rolled. Different strokes for different folks.
You want to call me names,, go for it. I do answer to A$$hole and proudly so. I believe I worked very hard to earn that. I've also been a member of ABATE for 25 yrs. Education is first.
BUT, if everybody took the attitude some of you have,,, it wouldn't be long before we will all be wearing flourecent orange or yellow padded vests and flourecent colored helmets.
remember ,,, big brother is watching and they know how to read. :soapbox: (my turn)
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Can someone post the link for the road rash queen we had several months ago?
I wonder what she would have looked like without a helmet?
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I find it unfortunate that some folks want me to wear a helmet for my and my families own good. The idea of forcing your ideas of safety upon me is repugnant. I'm glad some have chosen to wear a lid and it saved them pain or worse, I'm glad they had that option and it worked. When you speak about yourself and your testimonial that's great. When you talk about me and what's good for me, you just don't get it.
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I happen to be pro choice in just about everything. I will not call you names or make fun of you if you choose TO-or NOT TO wear a helmet. I wear the smallest one I could find. YES I've been in an accident. Helmet made no difference as I flew OVER a car. smarts helped some. just tucked in a ball and rolled. Different strokes for different folks.
You want to call me names,, go for it. I do answer to A$$hole and proudly so. I believe I worked very hard to earn that. I've also been a member of ABATE for 25 yrs. Education is first.
BUT, if everybody took the attitude some of you have,,, it wouldn't be long before we will all be wearing flourecent orange or yellow padded vests and flourecent colored helmets.
remember ,,, big brother is watching and they know how to read. :soapbox: (my turn)
No name calling here...I respect everyone's opinions and desires. That is one of the great things about this country, we can express that. Believe it or not, military members have to wear reflective vests, at least while riding on base, and I believe, unless the USMC and the Navy have changed their policies from when I was in (1999 and prior), the vest is required at all times, even out of uniform. (Remember what they told us, as long as we carry the "green card", we're on duty 24/7.) They could refuse medical/death benefits if the member is involved in an accident and not wearing the required safety gear. From what I've seen from most people that are the most vocal about not wearing a helmet, is they simply don't want to be told what they have to do. Like I said earlier, if it became law in most states that you had to wear leathers and boots, would you then cry that you should have freedom to wear shorts and sandals? Would you wear shorts and sandals riding a motorcycle? You want to protect your body from road rash in case of an accident, why would not want to protect that one piece of your body that made you decide that you needed to wear the proper riding gear? That just doesn't make sense to me. :nixweiss: But hey, it's your life, if you don't want to wear one, that's fine with me. :) I'll ride with you and won't think anything less of you for doing it. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
Here's a link to the Hurt Report: http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html (http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html)
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I totally agree it is a choice, a very presonal one at that. What I find interesting is the decision not to wear a helmet based on data analysis that a helmet does not provide protection, as if to say, "I would wear one if it would protect me, but since it doesn't, why bother?"
My question to those people is this.... What if they are wrong?
It is a choice, but in using data to support our decisions, we need to consider the bias of the individual / group doing the analysis.
I mostly wear a helmet, but sometimes I don't. In my mind, I am convinced I will be better off with it on my head, but sometimes I decide not to wear one and play the odds. It's more fun without one, but I do feel more exposed and vulnerable.
Chief
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Motorcycles are dangerous, with or without helmets. When I was 16 y/o I tried my best to talk my dad into letting me buy a motorcycle. He told me he'd rather buy me a double barell shotgun with both barrels pointed back in my face. That may be why at 49 y/o I STILL want to ride. Maybe that's why I don't wear a helmet a lot of times? Because they try tell me I have to.
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Every sport where you participate in the open...kayaking, climbing, cycling, etc, etc...the vast majority of people wear a helmet. Wearing helmets is on the increase even in snow skiing...i wear one. I have a deep scrape mark on the front of it which would have been my forehead had I not had it on when I face planted on packed powder snow. I am no novice skier, so anyone can have an unexpected fall at any time. If I'm participating in any activity where my head is traveling at a speed faster than I can walk or run, I'm going to have a helmet on.
Any argument made to say that a helmet does not help prevent head injury in the event of impact is illogical. Proponents against helmet laws are making their arguments based on emotions and not logic. If your head hits a stationary object, even at speeds as low as 10MPH, it is going to sustain some kind of more serious injury without a helmet than with one. Period. Your brain cavity is not made to protect it's contents when an impact occurs at a greater speed than falling down from a standing position. Even then it can sustain serious injury. To propel it through space on purpose at great speed (relatively speaking) and not protect it...the odds are against you. Period.
Everytime anyone gets on a bike without a helmet....just take a moment to think about how it would feel if someone came up behind you and took a half strength swing with a baseball bat to your head...I mean, really imagine how it would feel... and whether you feel lucky today, and whether you want to ride again tomorrow.
Oh, and by the way, the second most likely part of your body to get seriously injured in a motorcycle accident is your feet (obviously your hands will be hurt if you go down)...so when you hit the starter without a helmet on, slip into those sandals as well. Then you can get matching chrome crutches to go with that plate in your head.
It's your choice though...and this is not meant in disrespect of anyone's choices here. I just care about my fellow riders.
Of all sports that you could make the arguement that a helmet would do no good is skydiving, yet most professional skydivers wear helmets.
Personally, I love the feel of the wind through my hair, but am nervous enough about the feel of asphalt through my hair that I wear a helmet. Is it a pain sometimes? Yea, but so is being in a vegitative state or worse. JMHO
Rick
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No name calling is going on here, so please, nobody take it that way. And nobody is trying to tell anyone what to do with regards to what's best for them or their family.
This helmet/no helmet thing spills over into folks getting all into emotions/feelings/freedom to choose/control/non-control.
Do what you want to do, but make decisions about your safety based on logical/rational facts, not emotions or rebellion. If you then choose not to do the minimal things to protect yourself, and you would rather "feel" a certain way...go for it. I may personally think you're crazy as a Road Lizard, but I sure as hell won't try to force my way of doing things down your throat.
"YOU" is not a direct reference to anyone other than John Q Motorcycle Rider...
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No name calling is going on here, so please, nobody take it that way. And nobody is trying to tell anyone what to do with regards to what's best for them or their family.
This helmet/no helmet thing spills over into folks getting all into emotions/feelings/freedom to choose/control/non-control.
Do what you want to do, but make decisions about your safety based on logical/rational facts, not emotions or rebellion. If you then choose not to do the minimal things to protect yourself, and you would rather "feel" a certain way...go for it. I may personally think you're crazy as a Road Lizard, but I sure as hell won't try to force my way of doing things down your throat.
"YOU" is not a direct reference to anyone other than John Q Motorcycle Rider...
Couldn't have said it better myself Terry. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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No name calling is going on here, so please, nobody take it that way. And nobody is trying to tell anyone what to do with regards to what's best for them or their family.
This helmet/no helmet thing spills over into folks getting all into emotions/feelings/freedom to choose/control/non-control.
Do what you want to do, but make decisions about your safety based on logical/rational facts, not emotions or rebellion. If you then choose not to do the minimal things to protect yourself, and you would rather "feel" a certain way...go for it. I may personally think you're crazy as a Road Lizard, but I sure as hell won't try to force my way of doing things down your throat.
"YOU" is not a direct reference to anyone other than John Q Motorcycle Rider...
Terry, please jump down my throat if you feel I'm off when I say this. The highlighted passage may be what some people want, or do not want to do.....and they should be free to do that. Would it not be a fair assessment to theorize that if a rider wants to shun logic, embrace the irrational, and ride without a brainbucket because he simply feels like it (emotion) and/or because he wants to thumb his nose at "The Man" (rebellion), then shouldn't he be allowed to do so? It is a free country. To date I've lost 16 friends and learned of 22 injured in order to preserve my freedom........and your's........and everyone else's. If a rider wants to be emotional and/or rebellious, rock on....Brother. Heck yes I care........I care about every last one of my friends, and that includes the fine folks in this forum, but it is not for me, or anyone else to dictate how another free American lives his or her life. I might protest about a decsion a friend makes.......but in the end.......it IS their decision.......and that person is the one who will deal with the outcomes of that decision. JMHO
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Can someone post the link for the road rash queen we had several months ago?
I wonder what she would have looked like without a helmet?
Chief here is the link to the thread I started about her. It contains the link to her. Once there if you click on her name you can go to her Myspace website.http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php/topic,8598.0.html
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Terry, please jump down my throat if you feel I'm off when I say this. The highlighted passage may be what some people want, or do not want to do.....and they should be free to do that. Would it not be a fair assessment to theorize that if a rider wants to shun logic, embrace the irrational, and ride without a brainbucket because he simply feels like it (emotion) and/or because he wants to thumb his nose at "The Man" (rebellion), then shouldn't he be allowed to do so? It is a free country. To date I've lost 16 friends and learned of 22 injured in order to preserve my freedom........and your's........and everyone else's. If a rider wants to be emotional and/or rebellious, rock on....Brother. Heck yes I care........I care about every last one of my friends, and that includes the fine folks in this forum, but it is not for me, or anyone else to dictate how another free American lives his or her life. I might protest about a decsion a friend makes.......but in the end.......it IS their decision.......and that person is the one who will deal with the outcomes of that decision. JMHO
Henry, please note that I emphasize a rational thought process related to safety, which is a rational concept in itself. The other things mentioned are, by definition, non-rational, as they involve emotions and feelings. Certainly, everyone is free to follow whatever course of action he/she chooses, within the limits of personal beliefs, society and/or the legal system. Public safety IS a function of government, and even if we don't like it, it is generally grounded in a rational, reasonable premise, such as helmets protect your head, seat belts save lives, etc.
As I mentioned, I respect anyone's choice not to wear a helmet, or to wear flip flops when they ride. I just don't want to hear a bunch of whining when their head gets bashed in, or their foot is mangled beyond repair. Make the choice...live silently with the consequences, if any.
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One problem with statistics is you need all the info. Have gone done on my bike at 20 and 45 miles per hour. The helmet definitely helped no injuries other than minor bruises. Now no one has put my info into data base because i got up picked up the bike and made my way home. No report to anyone except my wife. So no one knows how many people actually have been saved by a helmet. Besides not wearing a helmet is what they call natural selection in the animal world Billy
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I think we can all agree the keyword here is CHOICE. I dont want to be told to do something. I want my freedom of choice. Too much damn government idiots trying to tell me whats good for me.If I get croaked not wearing a helmet, its my choice. Not some dumb ass pollitician.
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its my choice. Not some dumb ass pollitician.
Actually, no it's not. If a legislature decides to create a bill and a governor is willing to sign it in to law they'll do it whether you wish them to or not. Riding, at all, (just like driving) is a privilege and not a right. As such strings can and will be attached. Yet another reason why we do best when we don't antagonize the legislatures and leave them not even thinking about us. We're best off when they just leave us alone.
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Actually, no it's not. If a legislature decides to create a bill and a governor is willing to sign it in to law they'll do it whether you wish them to or not. Riding, at all, (just like driving) is a privilege and not a right. As such strings can and will be attached. Yet another reason why we do best when we don't antagonize the legislatures and leave them not even thinking about us. We're best off when they just leave us alone.
Agreed, Don.
The best way to keep us off their radar screen is to be reasonable. Make choices appropriate to the circumstances at hand. If you're in BFE puttin' along where the odds are small that anything could happen, take the lid off if you want to. If you're dicing it up with 18 wheelers, might be a good idea to have it on. Keep the pipes quiet when you're somewhere you KNOW it will bother people if you don't.
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I am pro choice on wearing a helmet. Having said that I also choose NOT to pay the medical expenses for someone who sustains a head injury as a direct result of not wearing a helmet.
Our country has consistently maintained that an operators license is a privilege not a constitutional right and that laws may be passed regulating that privilege including helmet laws and laws requiring the showing proof of medical insurance as a condition to getting a license.
Choice is fair when it fair to everyone
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Having said that I also choose NOT to pay the medical expenses for someone who sustains a head injury as a direct result of not wearing a helmet.
That's not really your choice either. If someone is un or (more commonly) underinsured that person is still treated. The costs are then passed on to all of us through things like taxation (various types of governmental support to both private and public hospitals), higher hospital costs to everyone to recoup the losses from the nonpayer, higher insurance rates, etc etc etc. That's why it is a social cost and not merely some individual's head he chooses to lay out there.
Gov't doesn't regulate because it cares about any one head (even yours). It can't and it shouldn't. Doing such would be bad rule making. It's always the larger picture. This is actually to our benefit in many ways. Even though we see a lot of us, relative to the "big picture" we're small in numbers and costs. So we can be allowed some latitude (what we call "freedom") that we would not nor could not be allowed if our numbers were larger. It's not that we don't cost. It's just that we don't cost so much that the cost can't be absorbed without too much pain or notice.
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No name calling here...I respect everyone's opinions and desires. That is one of the great things about this country, we can express that. Believe it or not, military members have to wear reflective vests, at least while riding on base, and I believe, unless the USMC and the Navy have changed their policies from when I was in (1999 and prior), the vest is required at all times, even out of uniform. (Remember what they told us, as long as we carry the "green card", we're on duty 24/7.) They could refuse medical/death benefits if the member is involved in an accident and not wearing the required safety gear. From what I've seen from most people that are the most vocal about not wearing a helmet, is they simply don't want to be told what they have to do. Like I said earlier, if it became law in most states that you had to wear leathers and boots, would you then cry that you should have freedom to wear shorts and sandals? Would you wear shorts and sandals riding a motorcycle? You want to protect your body from road rash in case of an accident, why would not want to protect that one piece of your body that made you decide that you needed to wear the proper riding gear? That just doesn't make sense to me. :nixweiss: But hey, it's your life, if you don't want to wear one, that's fine with me. :) I'll ride with you and won't think anything less of you for doing it. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
Here's a link to the Hurt Report: http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html (http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html)
Tigertr1 can testify to this. All military personel, whether on base or off, are REQUIRED to wear helmet, golves, long sleve shirt, long pants, gloves,and reflective vest. In addition they MUST be a member of a motorcycle 'club'. The membership is to ensure that they are exposed to other riders and to increase their knowledge and riding skills. Here in Beaufort you can see who the military personel are by what they are wearing while riding. This philosophy came about because so many Marines were getting injured and killed riding 'crotch rockets'. AJ
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Then we best ought just keep our mouths shut, enjoy the sunset on the horizon in front of us, lean back, put our feet on the pegs and enjoy the ride; even if we have to wear a helmet to do so.
[/quote]
2Lane,
I agree with your reply, but you know I can't keep my mouth shut about 160 Elected Officials running herd over 35,000 Registered Motorcycles in West "By God" Virginia. >:( Buncha' a$$holes, IMO. However, I do seem to think differently about such things as Helments, in my later years. I no longer wear my old "Brain-Bucket", as I retired it for a DOT approved Half-Helment. I wear it when required, and don't when I have a choice. If it's the Law, it's the Law. Things seem to go better for me, on this side of it. :2vrolijk_21: Later--HUBBARD
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I got my first scooter in 1960 when I was a very young, dumbass, "invincible" kid. My folks did not protest or give me any grief. Looking back now I wonder if they did not understand the risk or did and just didn't care about me, just kidding, lol. Back then helmets were things the football players wore. Never even though about wearing one. I was also self taught and learned how to ride through the school of hard knocks.
Again, I am NOT pro government and am very conservative. But I will say that without some "liberal" big-brother intervention I would probably not have become educated (some may call it brain washed) about the risks and consequences.
And that is my point. Make sure you fully understand the risks you are taking and how a helmet can mitigate those. Terry spoke about hitting your head just falling down. That is sufficient to kill you, no kidding, that's all it takes if you were to hit your head on hard surface. See the updated Hurt interview. Most motorcycle crashes result in a fall of only 5 or 6 feet. Sure some folks may fly over cars, etc., but if you low side you only "fall" a few feet and speed is not really that much of a factor unless it is really excessive. Even a spill like this can cause serious or even fatal brain injury.
Your choice, just know the facts and accept the risk if you want.
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Tigertr1 can testify to this. All military personel, whether on base or off, are REQUIRED to wear helmet, golves, long sleve shirt, long pants, gloves,and reflective vest. In addition they MUST be a member of a motorcycle 'club'. The membership is to ensure that they are exposed to other riders and to increase their knowledge and riding skills. Here in Beaufort you can see who the military personel are by what they are wearing while riding. This philosophy came about because so many Marines were getting injured and killed riding 'crotch rockets'. AJ
AJ,
I think Red can back me up on this, but the Navy - including the Marines - began a rider training requirement more than 20 years ago. I had to go through it when stationed at the Submarine Base in Connecticut in early 80s (in spite of the fact I'd been riding for years). The requirement for proper riding gear came along some time after that, and a few years later the requirement for a reflective vest. The requirement that military personnel be a member of a club I had not heard before, but makes sense, I guess. Someone commented earlier (may have been Red), that the military "can" refuse treatment to a service member if they have an accident and are not in compliance with the "rules". Know this to be true, as a young Sailor that worked for me when I was stationed in Georgia, had a m/c accident and was charged with DUI. He got to pay his hospital bills - both those at the civilian ER and those incurred while he was in the Navy Hospital at Jacksonville. Tough way to learn a lesson.
Tony
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Wow, this thread proves a couple of things. We have the most passionate group of people around! Awesome! And, the whole thread is on Topic! Hmmm! ::) I just thought it was a cool video! ;D Hoist! 8)
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AJ,
I think Red can back me up on this, but the Navy - including the Marines - began a rider training requirement more than 20 years ago. I had to go through it when stationed at the Submarine Base in Connecticut in early 80s (in spite of the fact I'd been riding for years). The requirement for proper riding gear came along some time after that, and a few years later the requirement for a reflective vest. The requirement that military personnel be a member of a club I had not heard before, but makes sense, I guess. Someone commented earlier (may have been Red), that the military "can" refuse treatment to a service member if they have an accident and are not in compliance with the "rules". Know this to be true, as a young Sailor that worked for me when I was stationed in Georgia, had a m/c accident and was charged with DUI. He got to pay his hospital bills - both those at the civilian ER and those incurred while he was in the Navy Hospital at Jacksonville. Tough way to learn a lesson.
Tony
Tony,
You're abosolute right. I became an MSF Instructor in 1987, along with two other Chiefs, and started a motocycle safety program aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The requirement for proper riding gear, including helmets was mandatory. When I was stationed in Seattle in 1980, Washington State didn't have a helmet law, but helmets were required on all military installations in the state. That's when I was t-boned by a guy in a pickup going 35 mph. I was wearing all the proper riding gear, and my helmet saved my head from getting split open, and my boots save a couple of my toes from getting ripped off. I had the choice to ride with or without in Seattle, I chose to ride with and boy am I glad I did. Now it's not a question anymore...you'll never see me without a helmet on when I'm riding.
Hoist, you really did start something here. ;) This subject ranks right up there with religion and poliltics. ::)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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Wow, this thread proves a couple of things. We have the most passionate group of people around! Awesome! And, the whole thread is on Topic! Hmmm! ::) I just thought it was a cool video! ;D Hoist! 8)
Hoist, the topic of to helmet or not to helmet is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowed theatre. But fess up, you knew that didn't you.
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BB,
While I can't argue with you on your statements about ABATE and other biker rights organizations, I will state this. They have an agenda, like any organization does, and the numbers can be tweaked in any direction to make your point. I'm not saying ABATE is wrong, but they do have an agenda. Like I stated, I'm all for the right to choose. And I choose to be protected. And believe it or not BB, it's not a tired old line, there are more serious head injuries to unhelmeted riders than those that choose to wear helmets. That doesn't take numbers to prove, that just takes life experiences, that I'm sure there are a bunch of them in this group, including yourself, that can testify to that. Like I would tell my students in my MSF courses: "There's two types of riders, those that have had accidents, and those that are going to have one." Facts and figures aside, from both sides of the arguement, common sense tells you, the better protected you are, the better chance you have. Like I said earlier, we all wear our leathers and boots, and gloves. Why? To protect ourselves, if we go down. Why doesn't that same logic apply to a helmet? Is it because we are told, in many states, that we have to wear one that we try to "fight the man" and not wear one and cry we should have the right to choose? Would we cry freedom of choice if those same states made it mandatory to wear leathers and boots all the time? I don't know. God, I'm sorry guys....I'll shut up now. :-[
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
Don't want you to shut up Dude. Don't ever want anyone on this site to shut up. But good debate involves different points of view which often leads to more real information being diseminated. And you'll note, we both believe in helmets. As you say in my case it's experience not statistics
B B
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Don't want you to shut up Dude. Don't ever want anyone on this site to shut up. But good debate involves different points of view which often leads to more real information being diseminated. And you'll note, we both believe in helmets. As you say in my case it's experience not statistics
B B
Thanks BB, I appreciate that. You're right, a good debate involves different points of views. Fortunately (or unfortunately, whichever side you're on) this has been the subject of debate for decades now. And the passion is there on both sides of the arguement.
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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Let me go totally off-topic here for a moment and say whole-heartedly how absolutely overwhelmed I am at how this discussion has progressed in such a civilized manner.
It is VERY apparent how strongly everyone here feels about this topic, and on other boards, or in some bars, this would wind up in someone getting shot.
The demeanor of this discussion speaks volumes about the character of the members on this site, and plays a huge part in why it is so successful.
Thanks to everyone for the respect and consideration of everyone else's views and convictions.
This is truly rare!!!
Post on!!
Chief
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I have stayed away from this thread for the last day or so because I know this is a sensitive topic, and I knew I wouldn't be able to express the pros and cons of this discussion better than others have already done. But I figured since everyone else is in the pool, why not jump in.
We live in a world full of dangers. It doesn't matter if your in a car, a truck, a plane, or on a motorcycle, your only one mistake or one mechanical failure away from serious injury or even death. Many of our brothers and sisters on this site work jobs everyday where they face unimaginable risks in service to the rest of us. How often do we hear about shooting rampages at business, schools, public buildings, or even shopping malls? Every deer season hunters get killed no matter how much orange they wear, or how safely they handle their weapons. Many of us have medical conditions, known and unknown, that could literally end our lives in a heartbeat.
When given a choice, I usually do not wear a helmet. I can not defend this decision. I can't tell you that I see better, hear better, or that I am a safer rider without a helmet. I can only say that I like riding without one. Of all the ways that I could die, I figure this is just one more. And if I'm gonna go, I guess I would rather it be based on my decision than someone else's.
I once had a chain smoker tell me that I should wear a helmet when I ride because he didn't want to be responsible for my medical bills. No hypocrisy there.
I don't think we should be surprised that states have and pass helmet laws. Are they any different than a seat belt law? Right or wrong we expect our government to protect us, mostly from ourselves. We ask them to inspect our food, our water, our air, and in MO our vehicles. We want them to pass laws that make the roads safer. Helmets make us safer.
I am sure none of this makes any sense, just random thoughts mostly. I guess in the end I should wear a helmet, but when I have the choice I chose not to. Its kinda like the old joke, "My doctor told me if I quit eating ice cream I'd live an extra two years. Why would I want to live 2 years longer without ice cream?" I really love ice cream! :coolblue:
Lets all be safe out there,
Ghost
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Always BEST to let those who ride decide! after all it's their head :soapbox:
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I too have laid in the weeds on this discussion. I believe in Liberty, and if the Libertarian party wasn't full of wackos (maybe I am one too) I would be there.
The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?). NOT FROM OURSELVES!
If someone wants to bash their head in with no helmet, its ok with me. If they want to fry their head with dope, also ok with me. Good for the gene pool. Don't come asking to be bailed out, you made your bed so sleep in it.
I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE. The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines. Use the people wasting their time on that to patrol the borders and stop violent crime. Chasing hookers and helmetless riders is a pity. :soapbox:
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I too have laid in the weeds on this discussion. I believe in Liberty, and if the Libertarian party wasn't full of wackos (maybe I am one too) I would be there.
The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?). NOT FROM OURSELVES!
If someone wants to bash their head in with no helmet, its ok with me. If they want to fry their head with dope, also ok with me. Good for the gene pool. Don't come asking to be bailed out, you made your bed so sleep in it.
I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE. The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines. Use the people wasting their time on that to patrol the borders and stop violent crime. Chasing hookers and helmetless riders is a pity. :soapbox:
Some people have all the words and eloquence for which I've longed my entire adult life. UPC, in my mind, you've summed it up. I could not agree more. Thanks Brother. :2vrolijk_21:
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I too have laid in the weeds on this discussion. I believe in Liberty, and if the Libertarian party wasn't full of wackos (maybe I am one too) I would be there.
The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?). NOT FROM OURSELVES!
If someone wants to bash their head in with no helmet, its ok with me. If they want to fry their head with dope, also ok with me. Good for the gene pool. Don't come asking to be bailed out, you made your bed so sleep in it.
I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE. The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines. Use the people wasting their time on that to patrol the borders and stop violent crime. Chasing hookers and helmetless riders is a pity. :soapbox:
Actually plain and simple, if it's the law, it's the law...if it's not then you have a choice...if it's the law and you decide to violate the law, then that's your choice also, but standby for the harsh realities...like I always told my troops: "You can to anything you want to do, as long as you're willing to accept the consequences of your actions."
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
One of the most influential theories of government in the past two hundred years has been the social contract, on which modern democracy and most forms of socialism are founded. The social contract theory holds that governments are created by the people in order to provide for collective needs (such as safety from crime, poverty, illiteracy) that cannot be properly satisfied using purely individual means. Governments thus exist for the purpose of serving the needs and wishes of the people, and their relationship with the people is clearly stipulated in a "social contract" (a constitution and a set of laws) which both the government and the people must abide by. If a majority is unhappy, it may change the social contract. If a minority is unhappy, it may persuade the majority to change the contract, or it may opt out of it by emigration or secession. This theory is based on the idea that all men live in a state of nature which is not ideal to perfect harmony. It is also an agreement among the members of an organized society or between the governed and the government defining and limiting the rights and duties of each.
If I'm not mistaken, this pretty much sums up the premise on which our nation was founded, and the purpose of OUR government. The Devil's in the details, which are in a constant state of change.
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but standby for the harsh realities...
And those "harsh realities" or consequences are where you learn just how seriously any particular state actually takes its position on the matter. In my own home state of Missouri, for example, it is common knowledge to everyone that it's a helmet state. Short of actually getting the ticket, however, nowhere is it stated that they don't take it very seriously (or at least they didn't as of a couple years ago).
The last time I checked (a couple years ago) the penalty for riding without a helmet was the grand sum of 25 dollars and no points on your license. Wouldn't surprise me if that were the lightest traffic penalty on the books here.
Some states have far more significant fines. I don't believe it's the case anymore but at least initially a couple of state enacted their helmet laws as what are often called "secondary." In other words you had to be pulled over for something else before you could even be ticketed for the lack of helmet (a lot of seat belt laws were that way too). The helmet thing being so obvious those faded pretty quickly. But it is the case that not all helmet laws are created equal. And some have been weak to the point of near non-effect.
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Wear a Condom, if not suffer the consequences. Wonder if the State of Kentucky will require that soon?
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And those "harsh realities" or consequences are where you learn just how seriously any particular state actually takes its position on the matter. In my own home state of Missouri, for example, it is common knowledge to everyone that it's a helmet state. Short of actually getting the ticket, however, nowhere is it stated that they don't take it very seriously (or at least they didn't as of a couple years ago).
The last time I checked (a couple years ago) the penalty for riding without a helmet was the grand sum of 25 dollars and no points on your license. Wouldn't surprise me if that were the lightest traffic penalty on the books here.
Some states have far more significant fines. I don't believe it's the case anymore but at least initially a couple of state enacted their helmet laws as what are often called "secondary." In other words you had to be pulled over for something else before you could even be ticketed for the lack of helmet (a lot of seat belt laws were that way too). The helmet thing being so obvious those faded pretty quickly. But it is the case that not all helmet laws are created equal. And some have been weak to the point of near non-effect.
Twolaner,
That's a very good point. Each state enforces and creates their laws a little differently. Look at the state-by-state motorcycle laws chart in the front of your HOG touring guide. They all do their own thing. I personally look at those charts, because I choose not to find out how well they do or don't enforece them. VA is good example...you can/will be stopped for not wearing a helmet, just like you can/will be stopped for not wearing a seatbelt. They don't do the secondary offense on the seatbelt here anymore, it is a pulloverable (new word) offense. Motorcylists have a bad rep in a lot of people's eyes...I try not to do anything to further that perception.
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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The government was intended to help protect us from foreign invaders (they are doing a crappy job at that from the south), and from each other (what do you think of our legal system, eh?). NOT FROM OURSELVES!
I never ride without a helmet, never drive without a seat belt BY CHOICE. The government has no business telling me what do do along those lines.
UPC,
As Bagger noted, you are simply more eloquent than I. The "from ourselves comment" was sarcasim.
You are also correct in that the government has no business invading our personal liberties, yet they do everyday. And we "the people" are responsible for that. If I feel that my government should not be telling me to wear a helmet, or wear a seat belt, then I need to make sure that I am working towards sending like minded representatives to the state house and Washington. It is government "for the people, by the people."
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:soapbox: I too have stayed away from this one too; however, since everyone is so passionate about their viewpoint I decided to post my two cents worth. I agree that it should be choice, not a law. I too agree that mandatory rider education is a good thing also. I never ride without a helmet, too many close calls and too many cagers turning in front of me (one I T-boned) have proven that a helmet is worth its weight in gold. One topic no one has touched on is what happens to your loved ones if you are severally brain damaged or killed. If for any other reason, I wear my helmet all of the time even if it gives me a 1% better chance of sparing my family the grief of caring for me or burying me before my time. Most of us have family and friends that depend on us, wearing a helmet for the ones you love is a small price to pay and is the cool thing to do.
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And those "harsh realities" or consequences are where you learn just how seriously any particular state actually takes its position on the matter. In my own home state of Missouri, for example, it is common knowledge to everyone that it's a helmet state. Short of actually getting the ticket, however, nowhere is it stated that they don't take it very seriously (or at least they didn't as of a couple years ago).
The last time I checked (a couple years ago) the penalty for riding without a helmet was the grand sum of 25 dollars and no points on your license. Wouldn't surprise me if that were the lightest traffic penalty on the books here.
Some states have far more significant fines. I don't believe it's the case anymore but at least initially a couple of state enacted their helmet laws as what are often called "secondary." In other words you had to be pulled over for something else before you could even be ticketed for the lack of helmet (a lot of seat belt laws were that way too). The helmet thing being so obvious those faded pretty quickly. But it is the case that not all helmet laws are created equal. And some have been weak to the point of near non-effect.
2ln, I think it was Ronald Regan that said we can vote with our feet. If you don't like the laws in one state you can move to another. This is one of the things that makes the United States great!
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One topic no one has touched on is what happens to your loved ones if you are severally brain damaged or killed. If for any other reason, I wear my helmet all of the time even if it gives me a 1% better chance of sparing my family the grief of caring for me or burying me before my time. Most of us have family and friends that depend on us, wearing a helmet for the ones you love is a small price to pay and is the cool thing to do.
Another good point that I think about, as well. I'm not done ruining my children's youth just yet. Just ask them. :)
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2ln, I think it was Ronald Regan that said we can vote with our feet. If you don't like the laws in one state you can move to another. This is one of the things that makes the United States great!
AJ, James Madison had it right in Federalist 10 when he suggested that most political tensions were finally resolved by the meeting and thrashing of different groups of interest. The more interested (and larger and organized) one side got the more likely it might be to prevail.
Within our community of bikers and riders everyone seems to be so very interested in the helmet debate. It's almost, anymore, as if you can't claim your leathers if you don't have a helmet opinion. As strong as those oh so fervent opinions might be though I personally don't know one soul who has actually picked up and moved family, hearth, home, job and life to move from one state to another over their helmet law.
It may seem asinine to say or think this but there are certain governmental policies or practices that I do deem important enough to have an effect on where I'd choose to live. Helmet law discussions are recreational and intellectual exercises anymore though. We hash this discussion out over and over again because we enjoy it; not because we expect it to really effect anything. Practically speaking none of us are really moving because of them.
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Helmet-full face! Three years ago I had a 2001 HD Road King. I was going 60mph and a suv going in the opposite direction turned in front of me, there was nothing I could do in time except hold while I hit it after I hit the suv the bike went on its side with me on it, The roll bar bent over against my leg. My helmet was scrapping against the asphalt, 147ft later the bike stopped. I crawed out from underneath the bike and walked too the side of the road, I looked at my leg and saw bones. When they took off my helmet you could barely see thru the shield it was so badly scratched. The top of my head had a little scratch but no head injuries. The harley was totaled. It took 31/2 months to recover. While I recovered I ordered a 2004 o/b FLHTCSE. I have 23k on it now. I believe if I would not had that helmet on I wouldnt have much of a face left. I am a firm believer of wearing a full face helmet.
Hello jackhhd,
I send you the :welcome_005: from FRANCE.
It'll nice for the other members if you present you in the thread "New Member Introduction"
with a pic of your bike. :thumbsup:
Best regards
:vrolijk_26: Jacques
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I personally don't know one soul who has actually picked up and moved family, hearth, home, job and life to move from one state to another over their helmet law.
Practically speaking none of us are really moving because of them.
Your right, I don't know anyone who has moved from a helmet state to a free state on that alone. But I do, to the best of my ability, avoid spending time and money in mandatory states. Not a big thing in the scheme of things but I don't visit or traverse a helmet state. Two years ago did the Sturgis, Colorado, Wyoming thing and didn't set a tire in or drop a dime in a state w/ a lid law. And, in all reality, when I retire in two years I'll clearly not move to a state that has a mandatory law. That's only 4 feet (wife and me) but that's the way we feel.
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Your right, I don't know anyone who has moved from a helmet state to a free state on that alone. But I do, to the best of my ability, avoid spending time and money in mandatory states. Not a big thing in the scheme of things but I don't visit or traverse a helmet state. Two years ago did the Sturgis, Colorado, Wyoming thing and didn't set a tire in or drop a dime in a state w/ a lid law. And, in all reality, when I retire in two years I'll clearly not move to a state that has a mandatory law. That's only 4 feet (wife and me) but that's the way we feel.
Wow, I admire your conviction. :) That means you either trailer a lot, or you spend an awful large amount of money and time to go around helmet law states to get to a state that doesn't have a helmet law. Now that's sticking to a belief. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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Wow, I admire your conviction. :) That means you either trailer a lot, or you spend an awful large amount of money and time to go around helmet law states to get to a state that doesn't have a helmet law. Now that's sticking to a belief. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
Yeah, I'm not that militant; or too lazy (whichever works). In the roughly half the states that absolutely require a lid there is stuff I just might want to see or roads I just might wish to ride. Not going to let some pinheaded legislature or some dumb-assed law keep me out.
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Yeah, I'm not that militant; or too lazy (whichever works). In the roughly half the states that absolutely require a lid there is stuff I just might want to see or roads I just might wish to ride. Not going to let some pinheaded legislature or some dumb-assed law keep me out.
Yeah, I agree. There's some beautiful riding country in those states. Kind of a shame to miss out on it because of some law. But ya gotta admire his conviction though. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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Yeah, I agree. There's some beautiful riding country in those states. Kind of a shame to miss out on it because of some law. But ya gotta admire his conviction though. ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
Nah, no I don't. Gave up cutting off my nose to spite my face a long time ago. As it fortunately still can be, however, to each his own to enjoy as he pleases (even if it requires a detour).
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Nah, no I don't. Gave up cutting off my nose to spite my face a long time ago. As it fortunately still can be, however, to each his own to enjoy as he pleases (even if it requires a detour).
No doubt about that. The way I look at it, there's too many more important things in life to be concerned about then some state with it's piddlin helmet law. It's not something I even give a second thought about.
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
Red
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AJ, James Madison had it right in Federalist 10 when he suggested that most political tensions were finally resolved by the meeting and thrashing of different groups of interest. The more interested (and larger and organized) one side got the more likely it might be to prevail.
Within our community of bikers and riders everyone seems to be so very interested in the helmet debate. It's almost, anymore, as if you can't claim your leathers if you don't have a helmet opinion. As strong as those oh so fervent opinions might be though I personally don't know one soul who has actually picked up and moved family, hearth, home, job and life to move from one state to another over their helmet law.
It may seem asinine to say or think this but there are certain governmental policies or practices that I do deem important enough to have an effect on where I'd choose to live. Helmet law discussions are recreational and intellectual exercises anymore though. We hash this discussion out over and over again because we enjoy it; not because we expect it to really effect anything. Practically speaking none of us are really moving because of them.
2ln - I didn't think anyone was going to take me seriously about moving. (except Hoist!)
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Yeah, I'm not that militant; or too lazy (whichever works). In the roughly half the states that absolutely require a lid there is stuff I just might want to see or roads I just might wish to ride. Not going to let some pinheaded legislature or some dumb-assed law keep me out.
And that's true w/ us as well. All trips of any great length other than west end up going through at least one helmet state, so it goes. Render unto Ceaser and we wear the lids. That is the most important fact to consider. It's the law which must be obeyed. Going west, amazingly, let's you choose. I imagine we've missed some jewel in Nebraska by taking I-90 through S. Dakota every time we go but so it goes. As for the retirement thing, we've long considered the Carolinas and North Carolina is, in our opinion, one of the most beautiful states in the east. Too bad and who knows, maybe their law will change in a couple of years. The good news is that western S. Carolina is also very nice and will suit our needs quite nicely.
But I now cede the discussion to y'all. Hoist asked to stir the pot and I've stirred enough. In the end, we've got our opinions and I think we've done a heck of a job clearly sharing them.
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For a slightly different spin on required gear to be worn or not worn while riding on a motorcycle please feel free to share opinions on the following idea. It is something I feel strongly about, that I suggest to every potential backseater that rides with me, and that I've actually written up and sent to several legislative offices suggesting they offer it as a bill before their house. Sadly, no legislator so contacted has ever had the fortitude or other courage necessary to try to bring this very important issue before the dock. The full language is necessarily long and boring. The core of the proposal (and this is the Federal variant) would be:
From the date of passage all passengers on the back seat of a Harley Davidson motorcycle, while said motorcycle is transiting any Federal road or highway or any state road or highway ever supported in any way by Federal funds, shall be barred from wearing brassieres of any kind in the interests of public safety.
Can't imagine why I've never got anyone to sponsor that Bill :nixweiss: ?
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For a slightly different spin on required gear to be worn or not worn while riding on a motorcycle please feel free to share opinions on the following idea. It is something I feel strongly about, that I suggest to every potential backseater that rides with me, and that I've actually written up and sent to several legislative offices suggesting they offer it as a bill before their house. Sadly, no legislator so contacted has ever had the fortitude or other courage necessary to try to bring this very important issue before the dock. The full language is necessarily long and boring. The core of the proposal (and this is the Federal variant) would be:
From the date of passage all passengers on the back seat of a Harley Davidson motorcycle, while said motorcycle is transiting any Federal road or highway or any state road or highway ever supported in any way by Federal funds, shall be barred from wearing brassieres of any kind in the interests of public safety.
I'm fer it... :bananarock:
Can't imagine why I've never got anyone to sponsor that Bill :nixweiss: ?
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While I have been in the beligerant group in the past (sold my 89 Springer in 91 when Washington went to a mandatory law, boy that showed them) bought a DWG in 93, All that cost me was a couple of years of riding.
I guess it all comes down to one thing for me anymore. When I bought the dealership the former owner told me to drive a new car, even though economically it made sense to drive a used one. He figured that 15 employees expected me to be there to sign checks and run a business that their livelyhood depended on.
I now have over 50 employees and when I made the ride to Cripple Creek in June of last year I decided to at least go with the half helmet all the time. Partly for communication but mostly for a small amount of added safety. I have considered a full helmet and can see myself going to one in the future.
At 57 I guess I have had more than my share of close calls and have flirted with disaster enough to count my blessings and be thankful that I can enjoy riding nearly as much with a lid as without and certainly am thankful I am here to share riding and life with my family and friends.
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I like this as it gives the other side of the helmet arguement. You Nolan guys will never agree on this but, we should be able to choose. And everyone should know how to drive! ;) Hoist! 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOAyXC-9Gw&NR)
Hoist being from Alabama I have had to wear a helmet since 1965 when riding a bike because it was the law ....and now that I am in Kentucky where there is no helmet law I still wear one but with that being said I do not like the idea of the goverment (or insurance companys) telling an adult what he should and should not do when it comes to recreation .... JMHO
Bubba
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Law's are for reasons. However, I'm seeing a lot of views basically indicating that "I'm too Stupid" to do the right thing. While this attitude really gets me going, I'll just state it. If I want to wear a helmet, buckle my seat belt, that's my choice and I'll suffer for my choice. I don't need government telling me that I need to something because I'm too stupid. Basically, that's what government is doing. We can debate safety until the cows come home, and there are viable arguments on both sides of the fence, but again, you don't need government telling you what to do.
:furious2:
What police need to do is arrest and lock up people reading books while driving, chicks putting on make-up while driving, reading newspapers while driving, and all the other stupid things that get people into trouble. :zwtf:
Personal choice is personal choice. Government...........STAY OUT!!!
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Personal choice is personal choice. Government...........STAY OUT!!!
:orange: :mango: :apple: Now THATS what I'm talking about!!! :2vrolijk_21: :cucumber: :pineapple: :pepper:
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This is a timely post what with the FBI illegally prying into our lives in the news yesterday. I have to agree with folks here that we have to decide our own fates. We need our freedoms left alone and intact.
Other side of coin: I worked in a head injury unit about 19-20 years ago. It was called The Greenery, just outside of Boston. They took severely head injured patients in the coma state, when they "woke up" (if they woke up), they moved from the third floor to the second floor for rehab. The first floor was for outpatients. Head injury is an intense thing to live with, especially severe head injury. It destroys you physically, mentally, financially, and is so destructive for families as well. Theres nothing good about it. It doesn't end for many--lasting years and years. Insurance eventually runs out (or better put--insurance companies bail out, b--t-rds) and the state foots the bill.
I know there are arguments about statistics. Statistics lie, same studies can often be used to make a case for either argument-seen that many times. Bottom line--if its you, its 1000%. I hate wearing helmets and I particularly hate wearing seatbelts. In the younger day, I never wore a helmet-hated them. But, I wont even sit on the bike without my helmet having seen what I have seen. Wont even back out of the driveway without that dam-- seatbelt on.
A half lid is better than nothing and you still get the wind. Get a good one.
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Educate, don't Legislate is my stance on "safety" devices.
As far as the argument about paying for bikers with head injuries, that is lame. In my state alone, I am paying for thousands of peoples healthcare, some illegal aliens. I would not mind adding a couple of bikers to that list and in most cases, they have their own coverage ,which I know increase everyones premiums. But at least they most likely had a job and paid taxes.
Dale Earnhardt was wearing a helmet. Hard hits to the head cause damage to the brain as it goes from 60 to zero inside your skull.
A helmet will help in the scraping type external contact scenarios. As posted earlier, helmets change the injury, but the fatality rate does not.
One more thing:
If a woman can decide to terminate a human life, How come I cannot decide whether or not I want to wear a helmet? Taxpayers pay for abortions as well.
my .02
:soapbox:
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We take risks with virtually everything we do. Some slip in a shower. Some are hit while crossing the road (on foot). Many more are hurt or killed in auto accidents. Some get the West Nile virus.
If I knew for a fact that I would be in a motorcycle accident the next time I ride, would I want to be wearing a helmet? Absolutely. I've been in two pretty bad ones. No helmet either time. Second one split my head open. (First one, just a broken bone and road rash). I wear a helmet once in awhile. I kind of go by "gut feeling". But most of the time when it's nice enough to ride, and the weather's warm, I don't like the restriction of a helmet. Also, wearing a helmet is like any other habit. If you do it all the time, it becomes second nature. Before I got into the Harley thing, I always wore a helmet. Now it feels uncomfortable, becomes a hassle when I park, and seems to increase ambient noise. Especially the noise from the motor and exhaust.
I don't buy the argument that you're safer without a helmet. However, I'm sick and tired of having our freedoms regulated out of existence. -That's my 2 cents. :coolblue: the SG
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Biggest risk I ever took was telling my Ex wife she didn't sweat much for a fat girl.
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Biggest risk I ever took was telling my Ex wife she didn't sweat much for a fat girl.
Very good!!!! LOL
But I bet you were wearing your helmet when you said it................
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It seems to me that the older I get the more I want to wear safety protection when I ride. I have been ridding almost 38 years.( I started early) I wear steel toe boots, My leather jackets have body armor in them. I wear gloves and perception safety sun glasses. However I just can't get that helmet on. I have one, just hate to wear it. One of the reasons I love to ride is having the wind and sun on my face and in my hair. I have a friend who was in the Air force in Germany. He and a friend were late comming back from leave ridding their bikes. In a hurry and ridding in an area they were not familiar with, a corner came up on them and my friend laid his bike down. He slid on his back, feet first along the road and under the Gard rail. Everthing was OK until his full face helmet caught the Gard rail and snapped his neck and spine. When the ambulance arrived whey took him to the local hospital were the doctors wanted to take one of his legs off because of the damage to his spine. The Air Force stepped in and life flighted him to a better Hospital . Today he has one leg almost 2 inches shorter than the other . The Helmet both helped and hurt him in this crash. Ridding at a slower speed( education) would have prevented this accident. Education and Experience, It's more important to prevent the accident. Our Government can't always protect us. let us decide if we want to ride with the helmet or not!
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I like being able to make the choice. I usually wear the lid, but have been known to pull it off in states that allow. I got a rear ended at a traffic light in '03 and was thrown back onto the hood of the car that hit me. I was wearing a helmet and had a concussion and a cut that required nine stitches to close. I'm not sure what it would have been without the helmet, but I'd guess that I would have had a split skull instead of just a split scalp.
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We take risks with virtually everything we do. Some slip in a shower. Some are hit while crossing the road (on foot). Many more are hurt or killed in auto accidents. Some get the West Nile virus.
If I knew for a fact that I would be in a motorcycle accident the next time I ride, would I want to be wearing a helmet? Absolutely. I've been in two pretty bad ones. No helmet either time. Second one split my head open. (First one, just a broken bone and road rash). I wear a helmet once in awhile. I kind of go by "gut feeling". But most of the time when it's nice enough to ride, and the weather's warm, I don't like the restriction of a helmet. Also, wearing a helmet is like any other habit. If you do it all the time, it becomes second nature. Before I got into the Harley thing, I always wore a helmet. Now it feels uncomfortable, becomes a hassle when I park, and seems to increase ambient noise. Especially the noise from the motor and exhaust.
I don't buy the argument that you're safer without a helmet. However, I'm sick and tired of having our freedoms regulated out of existence. -That's my 2 cents. :coolblue: the SG
I have a saying that goes " If your born to hang, you'll never drown". That doesn't mean that I try and test either of them tho. With this being said, I have a trip planned in a state where I have to wear a helmet. I have purchased two. A full face and a half lid style. I will find the best type for me and will sell the other on e-bay.
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I am actually getting used to the full face and never thought I would. I guess you can get used to anything if your motivated enough, at least in my case.
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Did anyone read today's USA Today article on helmets?
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Did anyone read today's USA Today article on helmets?
Hadn't read it, but I can now and so can anyone else interested...
Pro-helmet lobby has been scarce (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-03-helmet-laws-inside_N.htm?csp=34)
Efforts to pass new helmet laws intensify (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-03-motorcycle-helmet-laws_N.htm?csp=34)
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Hadn't read it, but I can now and so can anyone else interested...
Pro-helmet lobby has been scarce (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-03-helmet-laws-inside_N.htm?csp=34)
Efforts to pass new helmet laws intensify (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-04-03-motorcycle-helmet-laws_N.htm?csp=34)
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
Attaboy!
You da man!
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To Quote 2 Lane:
"From the date of passage all passengers on the back seat of a Harley Davidson motorcycle, while said motorcycle is transiting any Federal road or highway or any state road or highway ever supported in any way by Federal funds, shall be barred from wearing brassieres of any kind in the interests of public safety."
:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Now Don, that's the best legislations I've read in draft form in many, many years!!
:worthless:
Joe
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To Quote 2 Lane:
"From the date of passage all passengers on the back seat of a Harley Davidson motorcycle, while said motorcycle is transiting any Federal road or highway or any state road or highway ever supported in any way by Federal funds, shall be barred from wearing brassieres of any kind in the interests of public safety."
:2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Now Don, that's the best legislations I've read in draft form in many, many years!!
:worthless:
Joe
Joe, some of the other debates may be interesting purely for the sake of discussion. But that's the only rider legislation I really care about :2vrolijk_21: .
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Might be new to the site, but have been riding for thirty years and will always wear a helmet; my choice. A rider on the local Shriner's Drill Team died a few years ago at less than 5 MPH. He was just moving his bike (without his helmet) across the parking lot to set up for the next practice and went down. It does not take much if you hit your head.
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Might be new to the site, but have been riding for thirty years and will always wear a helmet; my choice. A rider on the local Shriner's Drill Team died a few years ago at less than 5 MPH. He was just moving his bike (without his helmet) across the parking lot to set up for the next practice and went down. It does not take much if you hit your head.
Chaos, so true, I have a buddy that bought a Honda store back when the cars were with the bikes and later sold the bike op off. While he had it though he got sued and lost for selling an inner tube to a guy that installed it himself on a Honda 90 and then a year later the buyer sold it to another person.
The second person was riding with a girlfriend. Stopped to let her off when the rear tire went flat. At a full stop as she got off she hooked her toe and fell hitting her head on the curb, at full stop. She died in a day or two having never come out of a coma.
My friends insurance company lost the case in court, product liability/poor installation wheatever, they lost.
At a dead stop, no helmet, lost life, you never know when tragedy will hit.
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SSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
they say more head injuries and deaths occur in the shower. BIG BROTHER may soon try to force you to wear a helmet in your own shower. :huepfenlol2:
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SSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
they say more head injuries and deaths occur in the shower. BIG BROTHER may soon try to force you to wear a helmet in your own shower. :huepfenlol2:
oh chit, now Roger will find a picture......
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oh chit, now Roger will find a picture......
Nope, have to run, headed for the new property, but a quick search didn't turn up anything :huepfenlol2:
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Sometimes when I've had too many Jack and Cokes, when I go to get out of my rocking chair I could pass out and hit my head on the end table. I know I'd be better off having a helmet on when that happens.
I'm going to install a seat belt on the rocker, and wear a helmet when I drink. -Much safer! :orange: I'm going to report these modifications of behavior to my disability insurance carrier and see if I would then qualify for a preferred rating!
If I use a straw, I could wear a full face helmet! I'm going with a clear face shield, that way I can still enjoy the TV (although the sound may not be as good).
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Steve, sounds like you're the type that gets too drunk to fish?
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I don't like to fish anyway. But I do like Red Lobster. And a bottle of Chardonnay.
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Sometimes when I've had too many Jack and Cokes, when I go to get out of my rocking chair I could pass out and hit my head on the end table. I know I'd be better off having a helmet on when that happens.
I'm going to install a seat belt on the rocker, and wear a helmet when I drink. -Much safer! :orange: I'm going to report these modifications of behavior to my disability insurance carrier and see if I would then qualify for a preferred rating!
If I use a straw, I could wear a full face helmet! I'm going with a clear face shield, that way I can still enjoy the TV (although the sound may not be as good).
Put speakers in your helmet, that'll take care of the sound...also a virtual reality screen could be installed in the face shield... ;)
Cheers :2vrolijk_21:,
:devil:
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I like to fish, as long as there's a cooler full of beer, and no bait on the hook.
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I like to fish, as long as there's a cooler full of beer, and no bait on the hook.
Somebody say fish?????????????????
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I know someone said beer too...........opps, my brother got it all
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I agree it is a personal choice and for me I choose to wear mine. I wear my helmet because I cannot foresee the future, so I never know when I'll have to depend upon it. Laying in a hospital bed with preventable injuries wishing I'd have worn it it TOO late. Or worse, laying in a casket with my loved ones wishing I'd have thought of them when I dressed for my last ride is hard to take. So I wear my helmet and pray I never need it.
Ride Hard - Ride Safe
Rob
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Florida repealed the helmet law some years back...and I like lots of others rode sans helmet....about a year an half ago...I got a creepy feeling whlie riding along. when I got home I dug an ole helmet...and started wearing it, have since gone to a carbon fiber beanie...minmal protection i know....but better than just my scalp :orange:
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MY sister wished that her husband who wore his helmet 99% of the time wore it 100% :(because he lost control at 32 mph landed on his head split it wide open and was dead in 10 minutes with paremedics walking on the sidewalk when he hit the ground. can't fix broken head and now it is hard to fix our broken hearts.
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since Washington is a helmet state I see no reason to ride without one anytime.
When Cindy and I bit the dust in Nelson in '07 she had a good sized mark on her helmet from a rock on the soft shoulder we dumped in. I am sure were it not for the helmets we very possible would have had more than a few scratches.
Helmet 100% for me.
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With my 19 years on a Fire Department I have seen helmets do more good then bad. I lived in MN for years where there is no helmet law and I always wore one. Just my opinion.
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I wear helmets 100% of the time and no BSR gets on w/o one. Living in eastern Nebraska with helmet laws, lots of folks here go ride in western Iowa (no helmet laws). Most stop at 1st exit into Iowa and take em off. A buddy of mine does this, and I'd always give him chit about it cause I care about him and his family. A few weeks ago he was riding his bike to get some service done and layed it down and he said he and it rolled a couple times. He had his helmet on (in Nebr) and it had a huge scratches and dents in it. His girlfriend was following right behind him in the cage to pick him up. She was a mess to say the least. He's DEFINITELY changed his tune on helmets and thanked me for my previous sniping at him.
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Let those who ride decide.
Yep, I know it is safer with a helmet, and a full face is safer than a 1/2 or 3/4 helmet.
Then again, I know it is safer to drive my 1 ton crew cab dually than my bikes.
I have taken the motorcycle safety course and the Experianced rider safety course, and will be taking it again this year with my wife, her first time as a rider.
So, how many where their helmet in 99 degree weather in FL? You still wearing leathers and gloves? If you are hot or over heating are you riding as safe and as alert as you would be if you were comfortable?
I let conditions determine when I were a helmet when I have a choice. Big city, heavy traffic I wear the lid. Country roads, minimal traffic I do not.
As for others paying for my choices.....I doubt it. I have very good insurance both medical and umbrella. My will or living will is very specific.....pull the plug.
I have more than once had to pay for others choices. Wife tee boned by an un insured motorist. I was hit by a dui driver, with no liciense and no insurance. How about all the under insured motorists. I feel I pay every day for others lack of responsibility or choice. I do with my insurance, coverage for under insured and un insured motorist.