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[CVOwner]

I think we can all agree the keyword here is CHOICE. I dont want to be told to do something. I want my  freedom of choice. Too much damn government idiots trying to tell me whats good for me.If I get croaked not wearing a helmet, its my choice. Not some dumb ass pollitician.

[Twolanerider]

 its my choice. Not some dumb ass pollitician.

Actually, no it's not.  If a legislature decides to create a bill and a governor is willing to sign it in to law they'll do it whether you wish them to or not.  Riding, at all, (just like driving) is a privilege and not a right.  As such strings can and will be attached.  Yet another reason why we do best when we don't antagonize the legislatures and leave them not even thinking about us.  We're best off when they just leave us alone.

[Midnight Rider]

Actually, no it's not.  If a legislature decides to create a bill and a governor is willing to sign it in to law they'll do it whether you wish them to or not.  Riding, at all, (just like driving) is a privilege and not a right.  As such strings can and will be attached.  Yet another reason why we do best when we don't antagonize the legislatures and leave them not even thinking about us.  We're best off when they just leave us alone.

Agreed, Don.

The best way to keep us off their radar screen is to be reasonable.  Make choices appropriate to the circumstances at hand.  If you're in BFE puttin' along where the odds are small that anything could happen, take the lid off if you want to.  If you're dicing it up with 18 wheelers, might be a good idea to have it on.  Keep the pipes quiet when you're somewhere you KNOW it will bother people if you don't.

[greglyon]

I am pro choice on wearing a helmet.  Having said that I also choose NOT to pay the medical expenses for someone who sustains a head injury  as a direct result of not wearing a helmet. 

Our country has consistently maintained that an operators license is a privilege not a constitutional right and that laws may be passed regulating that privilege including helmet laws and laws requiring the showing proof of medical insurance as a condition to getting a license.   

Choice is fair when it fair to everyone

[Twolanerider]

Having said that I also choose NOT to pay the medical expenses for someone who sustains a head injury  as a direct result of not wearing a helmet. 

That's not really your choice either.  If someone is un or (more commonly) underinsured that person is still treated.  The costs are then passed on to all of us through things like taxation (various types of governmental support to both private and public hospitals), higher hospital costs to everyone to recoup the losses from the nonpayer, higher insurance rates, etc etc etc.  That's why it is a social cost and not merely some individual's head he chooses to lay out there. 

Gov't doesn't regulate because it cares about any one head (even yours).  It can't and it shouldn't.  Doing such would be bad rule making.  It's always the larger picture.  This is actually to our benefit in many ways.  Even though we see a lot of us, relative to the "big picture" we're small in numbers and costs.  So we can be allowed some latitude (what we call "freedom") that we would not nor could not be allowed if our numbers were larger.  It's not that we don't cost.  It's just that we don't cost so much that the cost can't be absorbed without too much pain or notice.

[hard10]

No name calling here...I respect everyone's opinions and desires.  That is one of the great things about this country, we can express that.  Believe it or not, military members have to wear reflective vests, at least while riding on base, and I believe, unless the USMC and the Navy have changed their policies from when I was in (1999 and prior), the vest is required at all times, even out of uniform.   (Remember what they told us, as long as we carry the "green card", we're on duty 24/7.)  They could refuse medical/death benefits if the member is involved in an accident and not wearing the required safety gear.    From what I've seen from most people that are the most vocal about not wearing a helmet, is they simply don't want to be told what they have to do.  Like I said earlier, if it became law in most states that you had to wear leathers and boots, would you then cry that you should have freedom to wear shorts and sandals?  Would you wear shorts and sandals riding a motorcycle?  You want to protect your body from road rash in case of an accident, why would not want to protect that one piece of your body that made you decide that you needed to wear the proper riding gear?  That just doesn't make sense to me.  But hey, it's your life, if you don't want to wear one, that's fine with me.   I'll ride with you and won't think anything less of you for doing it.  
Cheers ,
Red

Here's a link to the Hurt Report:  http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html

Tigertr1 can testify to this. All military personel, whether on base or off, are REQUIRED to wear helmet, golves, long sleve shirt, long pants, gloves,and reflective vest. In addition they  MUST be a member of a motorcycle 'club'. The membership is to ensure that they are exposed to other riders and to increase their knowledge and riding skills. Here in Beaufort you can see who the military personel are by what they are wearing while riding. This philosophy came about because so many Marines were getting injured and killed riding 'crotch rockets'. AJ

[HUBBARD]

  Then we best ought just keep our mouths shut, enjoy the sunset on the horizon in front of us, lean back, put our feet on the pegs and enjoy the ride; even if we have to wear a helmet to do so.
[/quote]

2Lane,
   I agree with your reply, but you know I can't keep my mouth shut about 160 Elected Officials running herd over 35,000 Registered Motorcycles in West "By God" Virginia.   Buncha' a$$holes, IMO.  However, I do seem to think differently about such things as Helments, in my later years.  I no longer wear my old "Brain-Bucket", as I retired it for a DOT approved Half-Helment.  I wear it when required, and don't when I have a choice.  If it's the Law, it's the Law.  Things seem to go better for me, on this side of it.   Later--HUBBARD

[ultrafxr]

I got my first scooter in 1960 when I was a very young, dumbass, "invincible" kid.  My folks did not protest or give me any grief.  Looking back now I wonder if they did not understand the risk or did and just didn't care about me, just kidding, lol.  Back then helmets were things the football players wore.  Never even though about wearing one.  I was also self taught and learned how to ride through the school of hard knocks.

Again, I am NOT pro government and am very conservative.  But I will say that without some "liberal" big-brother intervention I would probably not have become educated (some may call it brain washed) about the risks and consequences.

And that is my point.  Make sure you fully understand the risks you are taking and how a helmet can mitigate those.  Terry spoke about hitting your head just falling down.  That is sufficient to kill you, no kidding, that's all it takes if you were to hit your head on hard surface.  See the updated Hurt interview.  Most motorcycle crashes result in a fall of only 5 or 6 feet.  Sure some folks may fly over cars, etc., but if you low side you only "fall" a few feet and speed is not really that much of a factor unless it is really excessive.  Even a spill like this can cause serious or even fatal brain injury.

Your choice, just know the facts and accept the risk if you want.

[TCinVA]

Tigertr1 can testify to this. All military personel, whether on base or off, are REQUIRED to wear helmet, golves, long sleve shirt, long pants, gloves,and reflective vest. In addition they  MUST be a member of a motorcycle 'club'. The membership is to ensure that they are exposed to other riders and to increase their knowledge and riding skills. Here in Beaufort you can see who the military personel are by what they are wearing while riding. This philosophy came about because so many Marines were getting injured and killed riding 'crotch rockets'. AJ

AJ,
I think Red can back me up on this, but the Navy - including the Marines - began a rider training requirement more than 20 years ago.  I had to go through it when stationed at the Submarine Base in Connecticut in early 80s (in spite of the fact I'd been riding for years).  The requirement for proper riding gear came along some time after that, and a few years later the requirement for a reflective vest.  The requirement that military personnel be a member of a club I had not heard before, but makes sense, I guess.  Someone commented earlier (may have been Red), that the military "can" refuse treatment to a service member if they have an accident and are not in compliance with the "rules".  Know this to be true, as a young Sailor that worked for me when I was stationed in Georgia, had a m/c accident and was charged with DUI.  He got to pay his hospital bills - both those at the civilian ER and those incurred while he was in the Navy Hospital at Jacksonville.  Tough way to learn a lesson.
Tony

[Hoist!]

Wow, this thread proves a couple of things. We have the most passionate group of people around! Awesome! And, the whole thread is on Topic! Hmmm! I just thought it was a cool video! Hoist!

[RedDevil]

AJ,
I think Red can back me up on this, but the Navy - including the Marines - began a rider training requirement more than 20 years ago.  I had to go through it when stationed at the Submarine Base in Connecticut in early 80s (in spite of the fact I'd been riding for years).  The requirement for proper riding gear came along some time after that, and a few years later the requirement for a reflective vest.  The requirement that military personnel be a member of a club I had not heard before, but makes sense, I guess.  Someone commented earlier (may have been Red), that the military "can" refuse treatment to a service member if they have an accident and are not in compliance with the "rules".  Know this to be true, as a young Sailor that worked for me when I was stationed in Georgia, had a m/c accident and was charged with DUI.  He got to pay his hospital bills - both those at the civilian ER and those incurred while he was in the Navy Hospital at Jacksonville.  Tough way to learn a lesson.
Tony

Tony,
You're abosolute right.  I became an MSF Instructor in 1987, along with two other Chiefs, and started a motocycle safety program aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt.  The requirement for proper riding gear, including helmets was mandatory.  When I was stationed in Seattle in 1980, Washington State didn't have a helmet law, but helmets were required on all military installations in the state.  That's when I was t-boned by a guy in a pickup going 35 mph.  I was wearing all the proper riding gear, and my helmet saved my head from getting split open, and my boots save a couple of my toes from getting ripped off.  I had the choice to ride with or without in Seattle, I chose to ride with and boy am I glad I did.  Now it's not a question anymore...you'll never see me without a helmet on when I'm riding.

Hoist, you really did start something here.   This subject ranks right up there with religion and poliltics.
Cheers ,
Red

[ultrafxr]

Wow, this thread proves a couple of things. We have the most passionate group of people around! Awesome! And, the whole thread is on Topic! Hmmm! I just thought it was a cool video! Hoist!

Hoist, the topic of to helmet or not to helmet is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowed theatre.  But fess up, you knew that didn't you.

[SPIDERMAN]

BB,
While I can't argue with you on your statements about ABATE and other biker rights organizations, I will state this.  They have an agenda, like any organization does, and the numbers can be tweaked in any direction to make your point.  I'm not saying ABATE is wrong, but they do have an agenda.  Like I stated, I'm all for the right to choose.  And I choose to be protected.   And believe it or not BB, it's not a tired old line, there are more serious head injuries to unhelmeted riders than those that choose to wear helmets.  That doesn't take numbers to prove, that just takes life experiences, that I'm sure there are a bunch of them in this group, including yourself, that can testify to that.  Like I would tell my students in my MSF courses: "There's two types of riders, those that have had accidents, and those that are going to have one."   Facts and figures aside, from both sides of the arguement, common sense tells you, the better protected you are, the better chance you have.  Like I said earlier, we all wear our leathers and boots, and gloves.  Why? To protect ourselves, if we go down. Why doesn't that same logic apply to a helmet?  Is it because we are told, in many states, that we have to wear one that we try to "fight the man" and not wear one and cry we should have the right to choose?  Would we cry freedom of choice if those same states made it mandatory to wear leathers and boots all the time?  I don't know.  God, I'm sorry guys....I'll shut up now.
Cheers ,
Red

Don't want you to shut up Dude. Don't ever want anyone on this site to shut up. But good debate involves different points of view which often leads to more real information being diseminated. And you'll note, we both believe in helmets. As you say in my case it's experience not statistics

B B

[RedDevil]

Don't want you to shut up Dude. Don't ever want anyone on this site to shut up. But good debate involves different points of view which often leads to more real information being diseminated. And you'll note, we both believe in helmets. As you say in my case it's experience not statistics

B B

Thanks BB, I appreciate that.  You're right, a good debate involves different points of views.  Fortunately (or unfortunately, whichever side you're on) this has been the subject of debate for decades now.   And the passion is there on both sides of the arguement.
Cheers ,
Red

[Chief]

Let me go totally off-topic here for a moment and say whole-heartedly how absolutely overwhelmed I am at how this discussion has progressed in such a civilized manner.

It is VERY apparent how strongly everyone here feels about this topic, and on other boards, or in some bars, this would wind up in someone getting shot.

The demeanor of this discussion speaks volumes about the character of the members on this site, and plays a huge part in why it is so successful.

Thanks to everyone for the respect and consideration of everyone else's views and convictions.

This is truly rare!!!

Post on!!

Chief