Topic: What gear drive cam with comp. increase for low $? (Read 3956 times)

skippy49 · « **on:** December 01, 2005, 08:28:46 AM »

I've got an 03 SERK with only an SE air cleaner and Rinehart true duals and I'd like to replace the stock cams with a gear drive to eliminate the tensioner problem, and possibly increase the compression ratio a little at the same time. I don't want to do much head work right now other than something to increase the comp. ratio a little, either through milling or thinner gaskets. Basically I just want to do a mild improvement over stock with a minimum investment. Most of my riding is done at 40-70 mph, usually solo, but two up on trips.
Also what would be a good gear drive to just replace the cam and do nothing to the heads or compression. I'd really like to increase the comp at this time, but not if it's going to cost me another $500 to $1000 above the cost of doing gear drive cams. BTW, I'll be doing the work myself so labor shouldn't enter into it.

Any suggestions are appreciated----including the suggestions to do nothing!

Thanks
Steve

Unbalanced · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2005, 11:44:11 AM »

To go gear drive,

26g for single rider and 37g if your going to ride 2 up. Andrews cams.

You will prolly see the freedom clan speak up here and also choices are if you want more you could try the 55g by andrews the heads on the bike will handle the lift. Generally most massage the heads some with this cam. SBC / R&R / John Sachs / Speeds (uses R&R)

if you can wait a bit we may have an answer for you on the Zippers bolt in cams as well as the 557 gear drive cam that DCFireman is doing (Dawg). I am told that Zippers has shipped me the 2 cams they have as bolt in for testing.

-harry

skippy49 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2005, 01:01:22 PM »

Thanks, I'm not in a big hurry, just thought I might do it sometime this winter, but we won't ride much until March or April so I've got a little time anyway.
Do you need to check the pinion runout before deciding on gear drive cams? If so, what is the maximum it could be and still get by?

Unbalanced · « **Reply #3 on:** December 01, 2005, 03:31:59 PM »

Skippy,

Shouldnt have to worry about it the gear drive, The gear drive bolted straight in on my 103 which is just like yours. In some cases you may need to do some clearancing. I believe both Jim's and Zippers both sell a tool that allows you to clearance the case yourself. Most shops carry these anyhow. In the case of the 103 you can put in a Andrews 55g with no issue and same with S&S 625. They both fit straight out of the box the only thing you may have to do depending on how you order it is have the gears pressed onto the cam and place the bearings in place

-harry

skippy49 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 01, 2005, 03:46:40 PM »

Harry:
Which cam did you use on yours and did you do anything to increase the compression? Such as milling heads or thinner head gasket? How did you like the results of the cam change?
Thanks,
Steve

factoryphil · « **Reply #5 on:** December 01, 2005, 06:54:12 PM »

Quote

Harry:
Which cam did you use on yours and did you do anything to increase the compression? Such as milling heads or thinner head gasket? How did you like the results of the cam change?
Thanks,
Steve

Steve

I'd like to know what Harry did to his also???

VANAMAL · « **Reply #6 on:** December 01, 2005, 08:01:13 PM »

im thinking of using the freedom 103 cams newly designed by them and made by andrews. i also have all the jims tools needed to change over to gear drive. pm me if intreted

Unbalanced · « **Reply #7 on:** December 01, 2005, 09:55:48 PM »

I can only share bits and pieces, because the package is not yet complete. I can tell you what worked and what didnt work, but as of right now I still have a few issues I am playing with. Such as waiting on heads from Zippers.

I can tell you that 55g with over 10.0 to 1 compression will detonate and ping and you can not retard the timing far enough to make it go away. I can tell you that the Horsepower Inc 53 mm throttle body pushes to much air / fuel when you dont have head work.
I can tell you the stock heads arent high velocity. I can tell you a cometic gasket / 55g can produce 118 / 112, but that when you have 10.25 compression it will detonate. 195 lbs of pressure per cylinder on a compression test is too much for a 55g.

Advise not using the 10.5 to 1 pistons with a hemi shaped head even if you deck them to end up at 10.25 to 1.

As it stands today I do not have a combination that I would endorse totally. That may change when I get some headwork. However the 55g was the stump pulling kind of torque I could grow to love for sure. I am sorry I don't have a complete package to share yet, which was why I have only posted on things that I can say do or don't work, and that is based on the experience of doing them.

If you need more info's or have pointed comments shoot me a pm or email me at unbalanced@bellsouth.net

-harry

syclone · « **Reply #8 on:** December 02, 2005, 07:28:22 AM »

Quote

I can only share bits and pieces, because the package is not yet complete. I can tell you what worked and what didnt work, but as of right now I still have a few issues I am playing with. Such as waiting on heads from Zippers.

I can tell you that 55g with over 10.0 to 1 compression will detonate and ping and you can not retard the timing far enough to make it go away. I can tell you that the Horsepower Inc 53 mm throttle body pushes to much air / fuel when you dont have head work.
I can tell you the stock heads arent high velocity. I can tell you a cometic gasket / 55g can produce 118 / 112, but that when you have 10.25 compression it will detonate. 195 lbs of pressure per cylinder on a compression test is too much for a 55g.

Advise not using the 10.5 to 1 pistons with a hemi shaped head even if you deck them to end up at 10.25 to 1.

As it stands today I do not have a combination that I would endorse totally. That may change when I get some headwork. However the 55g was the stump pulling kind of torque I could grow to love for sure. I am sorry I don't have a complete package to share yet, which was why I have only posted on things that I can say do or don't work, and that is based on the experience of doing them.

If you need more info's or have pointed comments shoot me a pm or email me at unbalanced@bellsouth.net

-harry

I respectly disagree on a couple of points. A 53 mm throttle body will flow no more air than the motor can handle, and fuel delivery with any size injector is determined by the mapping. Large throttle bodies on carbed bikes can hurt performance cause the signal to the carb (velocity) can really screw up fuel delivery. On EFI bikes, properly mapped, that has been proven not to be the case.
I run 55gs at 10.5:1 in my Night train. Carbed bike with DTT igniton (correct timing slope) and I cant make it ping.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #9 on:** December 02, 2005, 10:25:13 AM »

Quote

I respectly disagree on a couple of points. A 53 mm throttle body will flow no more air than the motor can handle, and fuel delivery with any size injector is determined by the mapping. Large throttle bodies on carbed bikes can hurt performance cause the signal to the carb (velocity) can really screw up fuel delivery. On EFI bikes, properly mapped, that has been proven not to be the case.
I run 55gs at 10.5:1 in my Night train. Carbed bike with DTT igniton (correct timing slope) and I cant make it ping.

The problem isnt the motor cant use it, the problem is that its not moving fast enough to take advantage of. The bike actually ran better with a smaller intake and throttle body in this case due to the heads not being able to use the air in a form that would make it advantages.
eg. The heads stock arent high velocity just volume. Very top end sure it can take the air, but down low it became a stuck pig.

If you happen to call Ralph at Andrews he is the lead cam guy for Andrews he will tell you that on a 103 stroker not to run the 55g over 10.0 to 1. He also informed me before telling him what was going on that i had excessive pinging / detonation. Now for me that was good enough reason to go with his recommendation to a more latent closing intake than the 55g. Funny part is all the detonation went away. You can refute that all you like, but in this case the fact of the matter is it resolved the issue.

Another point could be your actual compression or adjusted compression maybe lower than you think it is or mine could be higher than stated. I have the bike in the shop right now just to reverify this. What they are checking is volume in the heads with the cometic .030 and the decking of the 10.5 to 1 pistons. I should know better on this on Tuesday next week that is the goal anyhow.

syclone · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2005, 04:12:26 PM »

UNBALANCED....What was the engine build ..pistons? head gasket? that you were running with the 55g cams. I'm curious cause the CVO motors all are at about 165 ccp which is really only about 8.7:1 comp ratio. An .030 cometic alone will get you only a litttle over a .25 bump in compression. Using a domed piston in a non-matching hemi chamber with no quench area at all can really play havoc with swirl and mixture distribution .....So it has detonation..put in a cam with a later closing intake...cut the cylinder pressure to stop the ping....which is why the only guys I know of at this time welding up CVO heads and remachining the chambers for use with non-flat tops..is SBC. $999.00.
(I've seen some CVO heads with chambers over 90 cc)

nidan · « **Reply #11 on:** December 07, 2005, 10:05:26 AM »

37G work best at 9.8:1 , if you get too much higher you can run into pinging and detonation . I was looking at Hi Comp pistons and Andrews cautioned against them for this and the 26G.

skippy49 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 07, 2005, 10:02:39 PM »

Getting back to the original question, if all I wanted to do was replace the cams with gear drive, what would be a good cam for that?
Then if I did want to work on the heads and get the comp. up a little-don't know what's best-welding or milling- then what would be a good cam to use with the head work? Is there a cam that would work now if all I did was the cams, and then next year worked on the heads and still use the same cam?
A lot of questions, I'm just trying to figure out what I can afford to do and what is the best route to take for me right now.
Thanks for any extra suggestions

Twolanerider · « **Reply #13 on:** December 07, 2005, 10:48:40 PM »

Skip, you're asking that question at a fortuitous time. There is honest to god research going on almost literally as we speak.

Freedom Cycles out west has just released a gear drive cam for the 103 motors that is designed to be used for replacement in a motor with otherwise stock internals. A couple of the members here have already done the installs and have dyno sheets posted followed by conversations of the pros and cons. Do a search by "Freedom, gear drive" and see what you find.

Zippers back on the east coast has just released to cam sets that are still, basically, development pieces and sent them to our own Unbalanced member of the site. Harry (Unbalanced) has written that in the next few weeks he'll be working with both of them and reporting results. These are also cams designed for our 103 motors.

Zippers also has a cam from their RedShift line that has been a standard item for them that also looks like a promising bolt in replacement for an otherwise stock 103. DCFireman has his bike at their shop now (or in a very short period of time) for them to do an install and tune and then be able to report back on that cam set.

So, if patience do'th allow, hang tight a bit and get these other reports back. The Freedom Cycles reports have already started rolling in. Soon we'll be able to compare all the products together.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2005, 06:24:39 AM »

OK guys it's O' DARK THIRTY here in the mountains. I was going to make the trip to Zippers tomorrow morning, BUT we are under a HEAVY SNOW WARNING for tonight and into tomorrow mid day. So I said to myself and I quote "SELF" what would you do in a case like this. Self looked back at me and told me to get my ass going and since I had some part time work about 1/2 hour from Zippers THE EAGLE is going on the trailer this AM for a trip over there and I can kill two birds with one stone.

I will post something on the Zippers thread also and tonight when I get back home and I might have a time line. I do know they had a dyno down not sure which one but I would assume the Land/Sea model.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Twolanerider · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2005, 10:33:45 AM »

Quote

OK guys it's O' DARK THIRTY here in the mountains. I was going to make the trip to Zippers tomorrow morning, BUT we are under a HEAVY SNOW WARNING for tonight and into tomorrow mid day. So I said to myself and I quote "SELF" what would you do in a case like this. Self looked back at me and told me to get my ass going and since I had some part time work about 1/2 hour from Zippers THE EAGLE is going on the trailer this AM for a trip over there and I can kill two birds with one stone.

I will post something on the Zippers thread also and tonight when I get back home and I might have a time line. I do know they had a dyno down not sure which one but I would assume the Land/Sea model.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Self, thank you very much for getting Dawg's hairy derrier in gear. The world thanks you. Ok, maybe that's a bit extreme. Me and a handful of others around here thank you.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2005, 08:59:38 PM »

Quote

Self, thank you very much for getting Dawg's hairy derrier in gear. The world thanks you. Ok, maybe that's a bit extreme. Me and a handful of others around here thank you.

You know that you are VERY WELCOME!!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

jeepster09 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 20, 2006, 11:40:08 PM »

Quote

To go gear drive,

26g for single rider and 37g if your going to ride 2 up. Andrews cams.

You will prolly see the freedom clan speak up here and also choices are if you want more you could try the 55g by andrews the heads on the bike will handle the lift. Generally most massage the heads some with this cam. SBC / R&R / John Sachs / Speeds (uses R&R)

if you can wait a bit we may have an answer for you on the Zippers bolt in cams as well as the 557 gear drive cam that DCFireman is doing (Dawg). I am told that Zippers has shipped me the 2 cams they have as bolt in for testing.

-harry

Hmmmm......
The 37 does not like hi compression and is more a mid to upper end power cam, the 26 also likes stock compression and is a good low end torque cam great with a passenger. If you go above 10 to 1 compression you may want to consider the cam I am using which is the Andrews 31G cam. It works well above 10 to 1 compression and does not ping! [smiley=zwtf.gif]

skippy49 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2006, 06:02:40 AM »

Neither of these cams have valve lift anywhere near as much as the stock SE253 cam. What difference in performance do you think the reduced lift may create? Or does the different lift have much effect at all? I know the timing is quite a bit different but there are other choices with more lift and I'm wondering how these lower lift cams compare.

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2006, 06:43:01 AM »

Skippy a few things to look at are duration and lift and valve timing. A lower lift but longer duration also works well in these bikes. It again depends on where your power band is and where you want it to be.

BUT HOLD ON I can't say a lot but I can tell you don't do anything yet. I think there is a cam lurking which as of yet has NO NAME!!!!!! And it works!!!!!!! Something may be released very soon.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

skippy49 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2006, 02:17:32 PM »

DAWG: I'm dragging my feet as much as I can! I just keep occupying my time just checking into all the little specifics of cam selection and trying to learn all I can about it just in case I give up and decide to put in something already on the market. Hopefully something will come out pretty soon. The V twin expo is in Cincinnati, OH in two weeks so I'm assuming it will be out by then, but if not maybe I can learn something there.
Let us know as soon as you can.
Skippy

Twolanerider · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2006, 03:29:49 PM »

Quote

I think there is a cam lurking which as of yet has NO NAME!!!!!! And it works!!!!!!! Something may be released very soon.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

And how long might it be before results from the Guinea Peagle can be shared?

Unbalanced · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2006, 07:57:18 AM »

Twolane,

I have the results of the CAM, only problem is I don't yet have permission to release them. They will most likely not be released till this upcoming weekend. The reason is we're going back to the dyno one more time with a real air cleaner on the bike vs. the new cheap harley paper one. After the accident I found out they did not replace The Pumpkins air cleaner with a K&N air filter like they were supposed to. Zippers just sent me one of their new ones to slap on hence the post about air cleaners and the stantions and we will do a quick dyno of the bike with the new air cleaner and see what we get just for sake of doing it to be sure.

The reason it wont be for a week is I am flying to phoenix Az this week and will be there until Thursday. Test will be probably be done Saturday morning and we then need Zippers answers on to post or not to post.

-harry

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2006, 08:37:26 AM »

Harry have a safe trip!!!!!!! I kinda know Zippers will be letting some info out very shortly.I also know these guys and gals will be pleased. The info that will be released will be cams only at this time as far as I know. Stand by Twolane I think even you will be pleased.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Twolanerider · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2006, 12:03:05 PM »

Quote

Harry have a safe trip!!!!!!! I kinda know Zippers will be letting some info out very shortly.I also know these guys and gals will be pleased. The info that will be released will be cams only at this time as far as I know. Stand by Twolane I think even you will be pleased.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Thanks guys. When the time comes I might be interested in the larger heads/cams/thundermax package that has been suggested would be one of the option sets. I'm definitely most interested in the gear drive cams though. Want to lose the chains before the upcoming spring gets here in full flower. Last oil change I found the first couple of orange flecks in the filter and I just have no intention of screwing with it.

skippy49 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 30, 2006, 03:01:05 PM »

Harry:
Do you know if Zippers will also have a map for the Thundermax specifically for the cams, if they release the cams? That might make a difference also on whether to wait on them or not, if they would also have a map for the Thundermax. They already have a map for my bike that matches, the only change would be the cams and maybe that doesn't make that much difference changing cams only.
Steve

Unbalanced · « **Reply #26 on:** January 30, 2006, 08:41:48 PM »

Skippy,

check the vendor area for a reply going to post this there for you and see what they come up with.

-harry

DCFIREMANN · « **Reply #27 on:** January 30, 2006, 09:49:59 PM »

Quote

Harry:
Do you know if Zippers will also have a map for the Thundermax specifically for the cams, if they release the cams? That might make a difference also on whether to wait on them or not, if they would also have a map for the Thundermax. They already have a map for my bike that matches, the only change would be the cams and maybe that doesn't make that much difference changing cams only.
Steve

Yes they will have a map for the new cams that is why my bike is sitting down there as we speak. Changing cams only is not a bad idea. You lose the chain!!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Author Topic: What gear drive cam with comp. increase for low $? (Read 3956 times)