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[My103]

Hi all,
Having an issue and would like some imput from my fellow CVO owners.

I have an 05 FLHTCUSE2 which I bought from a friend in November.
When he purchased the bike he had the dealer install VH true duels and when he had it I would notice a back fire on the up shift move, now that I have it and have added about 2200 miles on it am noticing a more frequent back fire, again on the throttle off/upshift move and more as the motor gets hotter than when i first leave the shed.
The bike still has the stock air cleaner which would lead me to believe the dealer never mapped out the bike before they delivered to my buddy,
So, I have made an appointment to have the SE Stage One Air Cleaner and have them remap the bike.
While speaking to the Harley shop the service guy mentioned also doing a Race Tuner, by the time I’m done I'd be looking at about $900.00 that would be fine however after speaking with fellow riders most have had Power Commanders instead of Race tuners. Friends who have chosen the Race Tuner say they did so because Harley stated that the Power Commander will jeopardize the ECM. Can any of you add anything to this now more confusing topic

Mac

[Twolanerider]

Mac, don't pick.  At least don't pick yourself.

You personally don't tune either device.  You pay someone too.  So find the best tuner within whatever distance you're willing to travel.  Ask him/her/it/they which they prefer.  And use whatever it is they like. 

The only other alternative would be if you wanted to avoid the tuning part and trust a canned map.  I've got a good map for a Power Commander for an 05 103 with V&H duals and the Stage I air cleaner and download. 

Having said that, no map from another bike will be as good on your bike as having it tuned itself. 

[My103]

Twolanerider,

Thats my problem at this point, I don't know which one to choose and I have someone I reliey on saying the power commander is the choice.
You have the setup I am considering. Does or did your bike have any of the issues that I mentioned in my first post and did your current setup solve those issues?

Mac

[196HOG]

Power Commanderm is way to go - runs great 

[Fired00d]

Twolanerider,

Thats my problem at this point, I don't know which one to choose and I have someone I reliey on saying the power commander is the choice.
You have the setup I am considering. Does or did your bike have any of the issues that I mentioned in my first post and did your current setup solve those issues?

Mac

Is the one saying the Power Commander is what you should go with the one that is going to be tuning your bike? If not go with what the one that is tuning your bike recommends. More then likely what they (tuner) recommends is what he/she is going to be most familiar with and in turn will get you the best tune for your bike.

Also realize that the map that Twolane has was dyno tuned specifically for his bike. What will run at the optimum on his bike may/may not run the same on another bike w/exact same set up. This would be the same as getting a canned map from any other source it's going to be close and better then no map, but it may/may not be the best tune for your bike. Unless you are using something like the Thundermax Autotune that will automatically tune your bike as you ride I would suggest having it dyno tuned.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Twolanerider]

Twolanerider,

Thats my problem at this point, I don't know which one to choose and I have someone I reliey on saying the power commander is the choice.
You have the setup I am considering. Does or did your bike have any of the issues that I mentioned in my first post and did your current setup solve those issues?

Mac

Mac, I never had any driveability or other tuning issues with mine.  But I had something in the mix that made sure that was the case.  A patently excellent tuner close by.  So almost immediately my bike had its pipes and air cleaner, got its Power Commander and was tuned by artist.  Ran great.  No issues.

It's not about the choice of the Power Commander or SERT as a device.  It's not about the guy riding the bike.  It's about the guy tuning it.  That's the only factor that should really factor in to your decision.

Everyone here will have some variant of an opinion.  No one here has your specific options for tuners.  Find out who is best in your area.  It's often not the dealerships (though it might be).  Talk to HOG members or riding groups or guys at indie shops.  Someone.  But do the homework.  Then talk to whomever it is that's supposed to best.  Then get whichever he tells you to get.  Then you'll be able to stop worrying about it and start riding it.

You do have one other option.  There is a device called a Thundermax.  Rather than a Power Commander piggy backed to your ECM or a SERT programming within the ECM the Thundermax replaces the ECM.  The Thundermax has available to it an autotune module.  When installed completely and correctly this system tunes the bike as you ride it.  No more outside tuners or dyno time. It will also adjust the bike to changes you might make later (within a certain range).  So no dyno time later when exhaust gets changed (again) or other things happen.  Just an alternative....

[Fired00d]

Wow!!! Don't the two last posts sound like brothers from different mothers.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Twolanerider]

Wow!!! Don't the two last posts sound like brothers from different mothers.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I thought I felt something crawling around up inside my head.  I just didn't realize it was you D00d  .

[Seegarsmkr]

Very nice you two...I think that they hit the nail on the head...look for a reputable tuner then let him discuss options with you.  If you have more than one option for tuners in your area then speak to both and see if you can talk to anyone who has gone to them...preferably one with the same bike, if not set up.   Regarding the PCIII jeopardizing your ECM the PCIII does not really do anything directly to the ECM it kinda takes what the ECM puts out and re-maps the signal to alter many different things like air to fuel ratios (AFR) and many more based on RPMs and the parts on the bike.  You must "tell" the PCIII what you have on the bike and by dyno testing some of the intangible differences of engines can be tuned to maximize HP/TQ.  The SERT actually REPROGRAMS your ECM.  If you would like to switch it back to the one the MoCo put in then you need to go back to a dealer or have him download it for you.  The reprogramming of the ECM is done by the SERT interfacing via a laptop or desktop and a USB port.  The maps that they refer to are either canned...based on predetermined configurations and bike types or specific to your bike which takes in to effect all that makes it MAC'S bike, there are many ways of doing that but unless you are an engineer and/or have the patience of Mother Teresa it is better to pay for someone to tune it for you, based on dyno readings.  There is a ton of information available if you want to get more into the weeds but I think I will stop while I am not too far gone.  Suffice to say that both outshine the other; just depends on who you talk to. 

Seegarz

[RedDevil]

I can't say more then the Don and Gary have said...heed to what they have told you...many miles and years of experience between those "brothers of different mothers."  My dealer was comfortable with either for putting on the dyno, but would not put the PCIII on my bike because, at the time, it didn't suport the O² sensors. They weren't recommending the PCIII to anyone until it did.  The SERT is more "fine tuneable" then the PCIII, but if you get a tuner that's good, they both will give you outstanding results.  The PCIII is more "user friendly" then the SERT, in that you can play with it a little more, but I wouldn't recommend playing with the SERT unless you're a good tuner yourself and have a dyno handy.  The SERT is a little more expensive and as Seegarsmkr said, it does over-write the ECM on the bike, whereas the PCIII is a piggy-back device and doesn't directly affect the ECM.  It's tough choice if you want to go that route.  Personally, I'll be replacing my ECM sometime in the future for the Thundermaxx AutoTune and let it do the work of finetuning the bike and save the dyno time and costs.

Cheers ,
 

[iski]

Don & Gary said it - the tuner knows best what he can tune best - so choose your tuner then go with their recommendation.  Seegars & Red are right on target as well.

I have 2 SEERTS, since that is what my tuners were most familiar with.  It does offer more flexibility in tuning, but the trade off is more $$$$.  For me, HP & TQ and rideability are worth the $$$$.  Know folks just as pleased with their PC, so it is very subjective.

[kojak]

I have a SERT on one bike and a PC3 on the other. Both work fine. SERT is probably better for 07 models till Dynojet releases their closed loop unit.

[grc]

Hi all,
Having an issue and would like some imput from my fellow CVO owners.

I have an 05 FLHTCUSE2 which I bought from a friend in November.
When he purchased the bike he had the dealer install VH true duels and when he had it I would notice a back fire on the up shift move, now that I have it and have added about 2200 miles on it am noticing a more frequent back fire, again on the throttle off/upshift move and more as the motor gets hotter than when i first leave the shed.
The bike still has the stock air cleaner which would lead me to believe the dealer never mapped out the bike before they delivered to my buddy,
So, I have made an appointment to have the SE Stage One Air Cleaner and have them remap the bike.
While speaking to the Harley shop the service guy mentioned also doing a Race Tuner, by the time I’m done I'd be looking at about $900.00 that would be fine however after speaking with fellow riders most have had Power Commanders instead of Race tuners. Friends who have chosen the Race Tuner say they did so because Harley stated that the Power Commander will jeopardize the ECM. Can any of you add anything to this now more confusing topic

Mac

Mac,

For $900, I would seriously consider one of the "auto-tune" systems such as the ThunderMax or Daytona Twin-Tech units.  The big advantage would show up down the road, when you never have to pay for another dyno tune even if you make additional modifications.  JMHO

Jerry

[Unbalanced]

While I like the idea of a closed loop system for a lot of reasons, there are some initial pitfalls that I don't think are really being brought up.  First off unless you have an exact match to a map for the hardware installed in the bike for an existing map you will most likely need some tweaking or a map made/ tune.   I am seeing this problem atm with a map that is supposed to be close.   In my case the timing is off from the cam chosen in the map to the cam being used as well as exhaust was different.  The fuel is setup around what runs best with the map cam vs. the one I have in the bike.   In my case I will most likely tune it out myself, but the average person may not have that ability or intention.   I would not say that setting up a closed loop system is just as easy as plugging it in and running it.   In the case of the Daytona Twin Tec you have to do some map making and tweaking.  In the case of the Thundermax while they have a lot of canned maps made they do not have many made for other solutions other than their own.   They can give you great starting points, but that is what they are.   

[kojak]

I agree. I had my bike Dyno-tuned for almost six hours by a competent tech. What I got was no decel popping, a flat torque curve from 2000 rpm-5000 rpm, usable torque of over 100 from 1800 rpm, peak torque of 121.5 and 102.5 hp. This was with only bolt-on mods. The SERT needs someone experienced to adjust the map correctly. With the numbers I'm getting and the performance in actual riding, I wont be doing any internal mods. Thats worth $800 to me!!!

[ultrafxr]

Like many of the previous posts say - either one can get you there.  But I've had two very reputable dealers who I have confidence in tell me that the ecm can tell if there has ever been a PC installed and this could be a warranty issue depending on what failed.

And while I've personally used PCs with great success I've also had some problems.  On the old twin cams with the MM injection before Delphi the PC had to mount under the left side cover and a very large cable ran to the ecm on the right.  After a couple years the cable got chaffed and it really screwed my bike until I figured the problem.

And just last month a buddy (who does all his own wrenching) and just completed a build and had a PCIII installed 6 months ago started experiencing runability problems - lean condition.  The tuner checked the PC and it was fine.  But after new fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel lines, injectors and throttle body guess what?  They finally determined the PC was the culprit.  For my $$ I just wouldn't take a chance with an add on. I'd go for the SERT any day.  Just my $.02.

[djkak]

......But I've had two very reputable dealers who I have confidence in tell me that the ecm can tell if there has ever been a PC installed and this could be a warranty issue depending on what failed......

I recall hearing about the Power Commander leaving evidence of its install in the OEM ECM…EIEIO; sorry.

Last winter there was some discussion here on this subject and I remember saying I would try to confirm one way or the other whether this occurs with the PC; I’ll get right on that. The problem is that I have a great memory, it’s just real short.

djkak

[My103]

Mac, don't pick.  At least don't pick yourself.

You personally don't tune either device.  You pay someone too.  So find the best tuner within whatever distance you're willing to travel.  Ask him/her/it/they which they prefer.  And use whatever it is they like. 

The only other alternative would be if you wanted to avoid the tuning part and trust a canned map.  I've got a good map for a Power Commander for an 05 103 with V&H duals and the Stage I air cleaner and download. 

Having said that, no map from another bike will be as good on your bike as having it tuned itself. 

How can I get that Map? the one posted I cannot open

[Twolanerider]

How can I get that Map? the one posted I cannot open

Just tried it.  It downloaded fine.  Then opened with the software for the PCIII fine also.  Give it a shot once more.  At this link:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=10147.0

[candybrandy-rk]

I like the SERT just for the idea that is not a piggyback system.The changes are directly made to the ECM.

On another note besides the tuning- some popping is often caused by exhaust leaks . It is a good idea to use Ultra Copper high temp sealant at the inlet of the mufflers.
Good luck on whatever you choose!
C.B.

[My103]

How can I get that Map? the one posted I cannot open

Twolanerider, Do you know your Tq and Hp readings and is it possible to get a faxed copy of your Dyno graph.
My problem now is that I have had the PC installed the SEstage1 air cleaner and before the Dyno we were gettinf 83 HP(Stock) after we were only getting 86. The tuner had a problem getting the probe through the VH pipes.
E-mail me direct.

Mac