Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[pm203]

When changing exhaust, is a simple remap good enough? Or, is a dyno tune a must.

[HOGMIKE]

When changing exhaust, is a simple remap good enough? Or, is a dyno tune a must.

Not a must, but, how well do you want your bike to run??
A simple remap may suit you fine, just a crap shoot.
JMHO
 

[pm203]

With only 260 miles on the bike, should I wait for the engine to be broken-in first? I would prefer a dyno-tune,but my dealer is telling me that unless I am going to race the bike, the difference would be minimal. They did however do 2 dyno pulls just to measure the difference with the new pipes. HP increase was 8 and torque increase was .5.

[faceracer]

If you go for a setup like the Fullsac stage I or stage II Steve can provide you with a map for TTS master and your bike will run very good. I know because I ran both stages. Now could a dyno tune make it better? Sure but unless your going to the strip I doubt it is a real need. Just my 2Cents!!!!


FACE

[glens]

When changing exhaust, is a simple remap good enough? Or, is a dyno tune a must.

With only 260 miles on the bike, should I wait for the engine to be broken-in first? I would prefer a dyno-tune,but my dealer is telling me that unless I am going to race the bike, the difference would be minimal. They did however do 2 dyno pulls just to measure the difference with the new pipes. HP increase was 8 and torque increase was .5.

What's a "simple remap"?  Did the dealer install a "download" or did they sell you a "Super" or "Street" "tuner" and use that to load a calibration into the ECM?  Harley doesn't have any calibrations that are proper for different exhaust unless maybe you're using your stock headpipes with H-D slip-on mufflers.  But those calibrations are for also for a different air cleaner assembly, so unless you also installed one of their A/C units, you're still not going to get a "proper" calibration from them.

The TTS kit allows you to load a pretty-close base calibration and run a few data-logging sessions to get it dialed in really close yourself.  Or your dealer can use their dyno to do it for you, if they're halfway competent with their equipment.

I guess we really need some more information.  What have you installed and how has the ECM calibration been addressed so far?

[pm203]

Besides the new Bassani pipes, the dealer installed the SE race tuner. All they did was remap it. I already know that I should dyno-tune the bike. When it was at the dealer, that's what I thought they were doing. But, all they did was dyno the bike before and after the exhaust and race tuner install. I still want to dyno-tune the bike, but there are so many individuals telling me its not neccessary. So, the next question is do I let the dealer do it? Does anyone have any feedback on where or near Laconia NH I can get this done? Dr Dyno will be in town in June, do I wait for him?

[glens]

You don't really "install" a SE Race Tuner.  It temporarily connects to the data port on the bike and is used to recalibrate the ECM.  Since they sold you one, you should have it.  Did they sell you the cable set and software as well?  If not, buy them, too, and use them to run a few "smart tune" sessions yourself.  It'll be better than what you've got now (unless they did that for you) and maybe good enough that you won't "need" to "dyno tune" it.

[pm203]

I would only hope that they smart-tuned it. I do not have the cable. Just a small box of some sort.
Thank you for your advice.

[grc]

I would only hope that they smart-tuned it. I do not have the cable. Just a small box of some sort.
Thank you for your advice.

Hope springs eternal, but I'll bet they just loaded one of the maps on the CD and called it a day since it takes some amount of time to do proper smart-tunes.  The small box is the VCI (Vehicle Communications Interface), and you want to keep that safe and secure since it IS the SEPST.  Cables and the actual software CD are optional at additional charge.  
>P/N 32111-12 Software CD  $34.95
>P/N 41000018 Cable Kit  $45.95 (For use with ’11-later Softail models and ’12 VrSC and Dyna models)
OR
>P/N 32184-08A  Cable Kit  $45.95 (For use with ’01-later eFI XL and Xr, ’02-later eFI touring and trike, ’01-’11 VrSC™ and eFI Dyna and ’01-’10 eFI Softail models. Also fits VrSXSe Destroyer® race bikes).


Jerry

[pm203]

One more question. I have been told that on the 10 touring models, the 02 sensors need to be disconnected/disabled to tune the bike properly.Also need a Power Commander 5. Thoughts please?

[Midnight Rider]

One more question. I have been told that on the 10 touring models, the 02 sensors need to be disconnected/disabled to tune the bike properly.Also need a Power Commander 5. Thoughts please?

Only if you want to undo all the technology you paid for and run the bike like an '06 or earlier.  It will run in open loop just fine (no o2 sensors hooked up), but can't adapt to different fuels as well.  The tuning device you have is perfectly fine in the right hands.  The issue is finding the right hands.

As Jerry stated above, I'd bet you a $100 that the dealer downloaded some canned program that HD has.  Depending on what they put in there, it could be one of their street legal maps, or something else that is "close enough for horsehoes".  In your above post, you state that the pulls they did on the Dyno showed an increase of 8HP and .5 TQ.  Did you mean POINT 5, as in 1/2 of one or 5?  Typical numbers will be about a 10% increase on both sides over stock, with a header/muffler change and a decent map/tune.  That's kinda' the rule of thumb so to speak, but 10% is a realistic expectation.

[pm203]

Only if you want to undo all the technology you paid for and run the bike like an '06 or earlier.  It will run in open loop just fine (no o2 sensors hooked up), but can't adapt to different fuels as well.  The tuning device you have is perfectly fine in the right hands.  The issue is finding the right hands.

As Jerry stated above, I'd bet you a $100 that the dealer downloaded some canned program that HD has.  Depending on what they put in there, it could be one of their street legal maps, or something else that is "close enough for horsehoes".  In your above post, you state that the pulls they did on the Dyno showed an increase of 8HP and .5 TQ.  Did you mean POINT 5, as in 1/2 of one or 5?  Typical numbers will be about a 10% increase on both sides over stock, with a header/muffler change and a decent map/tune.  That's kinda' the rule of thumb so to speak, but 10% is a realistic expectation.

Yes,.5 meaning 1/2 increase in torque.

[Midnight Rider]

Yes,.5 meaning 1/2 increase in torque.

That sucks, and is an indicator that the map is not really right for the bike.  Does it run well?  No backfiring, throttle lag, dead spots, idle problems, etc?

There is nothing wrong with the PC V, but IMO, it is not the best solution available, and you have already paid for a tuning device that works well and maintains closed loop operation of the bike when applicable.

[pm203]

It ran pretty good. Idle was like stock and it had very little ,almost no decel pop.

[Midnight Rider]

It ran pretty good. Idle was like stock and it had very little ,almost no decel pop.

If you're happy with it, leave it alone.  If you want the best it can be with what you've done, then get it tuned with the SEPRT that you already bought.  But the dealer nearest you may not be the place to get it tuned.

[pm203]

If I am not mistaken, 02 sensors are there only for emission purposes and to protect amongst other other things, the catalytic converter.

[pm203]

In 2007, H-D put O2 sensors on all models, which has people wondering, “Aren’t they supposed to automatically tune around or compensate for any AFR issues?” In a word, no! The full explanation is in the July issue, but the short answer is that they were put on to operate the engine at 14.7:1 AFR (you may see 14.6), which is the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline that produces the least emissions. The sensors will adjust for an air cleaner and/or exhaust system change and bring the AFR back to 14.7:1. Truth is, the O2 sensors are in effect a set of blinders. Once they get locked into closed loop (also explained in July), they override even perfectly tuned maps and totally ignore altitude and temperature sensors, as well as how hot the oil or the rider gets

(This is from Dr Dyno in an article in AIM Magazine.)

[Midnight Rider]

In 2007, H-D put O2 sensors on all models, which has people wondering, “Aren’t they supposed to automatically tune around or compensate for any AFR issues?” In a word, no! The full explanation is in the July issue, but the short answer is that they were put on to operate the engine at 14.7:1 AFR (you may see 14.6), which is the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline that produces the least emissions. The sensors will adjust for an air cleaner and/or exhaust system change and bring the AFR back to 14.7:1. Truth is, the O2 sensors are in effect a set of blinders. Once they get locked into closed loop (also explained in July), they override even perfectly tuned maps and totally ignore altitude and temperature sensors, as well as how hot the oil or the rider gets(This is from Dr Dyno in an article in AIM Magazine.)

That is simply not true.  The O2 sensors don't CONTROL anything...they provide data to the ECM, and that's all they do.  The ECM controls everything.  No tuner looks at oil temperature, nor gives a rat's ass about how hot the rider is.  If you program the ECM with different operating parameters than stock, it doesn't magically revert back to stock parameters, any more than your home computer "decides" it doesn't like the latest program you installed and takes itself back to where it was before.  It is not possible.  Period.

But, if you want to put a PC on and disconnect the O2 sensors, the bike will run fine with the fuel that it was tuned with.  Change the fuel, which happens all the time with pump gas, and things may not run as well.  It limits the ECM's ability to adapt within the parameters programmed into it.

[pm203]

Oh boy. Now I am really confused.

[grc]

One more question. I have been told that on the 10 touring models, the 02 sensors need to be disconnected/disabled to tune the bike properly.Also need a Power Commander 5. Thoughts please?

You've got ME confused.  What model bike have we been talking about here, a Softail Convertible like the picture in your profile, or a 2010 Touring model?  Those are two different animals, and if you were really talking about a 2010 Touring model the whole time then the part number I gave you for the cables is incorrect.

Anyhow, who exactly was it who told you that stuff about having to eliminate the oxygen sensors and use a PCV to tune the bike properly?  Someone who sells PCV's perhaps?  If you're talking about the same bike that you already have a SEPST for, you already have a much better solution and it's already paid for.  Find a fully qualified tuner and let him tune the bike with the device you already have.  If you're talking about a different bike that you don't already have a tuning device for, I'd still suggest the TTS MasterTune or the SEPST over a PCV.


Jerry

[pm203]

 I have a Conv. I would imagine that all 110's are the same. Sorry for the confusion.

[Midnight Rider]

The PC tells the ECM to deliver X amount of fuel, in ratio to the throttle position, which delivers Z amount of air, with your engine, exhaust system, and air intake.  Depending on how the tuner tunes it with the fuel you have in the tank that day, he may tell the PC that he wants the air/fuel ratio to be 13.5, all the time, at certain throttle positions.  But, if you get different fuel...for example it has more enthanol in it...you won't really be running 13.5, it might actually be 14, or whatever the combustion properties are for that load of fuel.  With the O2 sensors, the ECM can adjust itself for that different fuel, to maintain let's say, and air fuel ratio of 14.5:1 at cruise turning 2800 RPM.  The PC can't do that.  It's much more complicated than that, but that's a simple way to understand what's basically going on.

I ran PCIII's on both my '06 SEUC and '06 SEVROD...worked just fine.  However, compared to what you have on the '10, it is crude at best.  Proper programing (tuning) with the tuner you have, or something like the TTS, will allow you to have the best of both worlds...good fuel economy at cruise, richer at idle and wide open throttle, and the ability to adapt to changing fuels and conditions.  There are limits with the HD system, due to the narrow band O2 sensors, but it's still a better way to get there, IMO, than a PC.  But that's my opinion...and that of many others.

BTW...I've never owned a softail, but I'm pretty sure you've got the B version of the 110" motor because the motor is not rubber mounted like the touring bikes.  It's counterbalanced internally.  I think I'm right on that, but somebody correct me if I'm not.  The B motor will never develop quite as much power because of it's design...not significantly different, but different.  The counterbalancer eats some power.

[glens]

The PC tells the ECM to deliver X amount of fuel, in ratio to the throttle position, which delivers Z amount of air, with your engine, exhaust system, and air intake.  Depending on how the tuner tunes it with the fuel you have in the tank that day, he may tell the PC that he wants the air/fuel ratio to be 13.5, all the time, at certain throttle positions.  But, if you get different fuel...for example it has more enthanol in it...you won't really be running 13.5, it might actually be 14, or whatever the combustion properties are for that load of fuel.  With the O2 sensors, the ECM can adjust itself for that different fuel, to maintain let's say, and air fuel ratio of 14.5:1 at cruise turning 2800 RPM.  The PC can't do that.  It's much more complicated than that, but that's a simple way to understand what's basically going on.

That's too simple an explanation to really be of use.

The PC doesn't tell the ECM to deliver anything.  It takes what the ECM is delivering and modifies the signals to the injectors (and the coil if so adjusted).

The tuner may have set the PC to deliver "13.5" on the day of the tune, but I can practically guarantee that it wasn't really "13.5" anyway since it's unlikely fuel which burns at stoich of 14.6:1 is even available.  If the fuel used to tune had a stoich value of 14.3:1 and the tuner, using his/her "AFR meter" set it for "13.5" (and their meter was both [otherwise] accurate and accurately used), then the AFR would have really been 13.2:1.

The beauty of O2 sensors being used for closed-loop feedback is that, since they actually measure "lambda" (percentage of stoichiometric burn), they'll be used by the ECM to achieve exactly that same lambda no matter what fuel might be in use (within reasonable range).  Lambda is actually being used regardless your calibration having a "lambda" fuel table or an "AFR" fuel table.  You can reliably run closed-loop at the equivalent of ~14.3:1 if you could find "14.6:1" fuel (0.977 lambda) all day long, every day, E10 or "straight" gasoline.  And you'd be very wise to do so because you never know what you're going to get for fuel from day to day or location to location.

In order to run closed-loop with a PC-V you'll have to (also) purchase and (also) stow on the bike their O2 sensor kit with its own closed-loop sensor controller.  Then you'd be running around with an arguably better stock closed-loop system being disabled and an aftermarket replacement for it using one closed-loop system on the sensors for a second closed-loop fuel control setup instead.  That'd maybe be worthwhile if the aftermarket kit actually performed better, but the only thing it does "more" than the stock system is to be able to stay closed-loop everywhere while the stock system goes open-loop when you go WOT and just before.  It's totally unnecessary to monitor that area of operation if you have a system like what came on the bike.  It'll adjust fuel where/when it can, and extend those changes to the areas of operation where it can't work because the O2 sensors run out of range.  So long as your calibration is adjusted properly everywhere there'll never be a problem, and the system is faster, more accurate, and native to the ECM already on your bike!

I've got about 2 tons more to say, but that should suffice...  Keep the SEPST, don't get a PC-V, and don't run around with closed-loop disabled.  Not in this day and age.

[glens]

I nearly forgot...

In 2007, H-D put O2 sensors on all models, which has people wondering, “Aren’t they supposed to automatically tune around or compensate for any AFR issues?” In a word, no! The full explanation is in the July issue, but the short answer is that they were put on to operate the engine at 14.7:1 AFR (you may see 14.6), which is the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline that produces the least emissions. The sensors will adjust for an air cleaner and/or exhaust system change and bring the AFR back to 14.7:1. Truth is, the O2 sensors are in effect a set of blinders. Once they get locked into closed loop (also explained in July), they override even perfectly tuned maps and totally ignore altitude and temperature sensors, as well as how hot the oil or the rider gets

(This is from Dr Dyno in an article in AIM Magazine.)

The author and host of the article notwithstanding, that's a horribly ignorant characterization of what's going on in the system.  I don't know if I've seen that specific article or not, but I've read some stuff on the "Dr"'s website that wasn't worth the time to read or the cost to deliver to folks' web browsers.  I wouldn't let him put my bike on his dyno for any reason whatsoever because of the crap he's spewing, whether he actually believes it or not.

[dlaws01]

I nearly forgot...

The author and host of the article notwithstanding, that's a horribly ignorant characterization of what's going on in the system.  I don't know if I've seen that specific article or not, but I've read some stuff on the "Dr"'s website that wasn't worth the time to read or the cost to deliver to folks' web browsers.  I wouldn't let him put my bike on his dyno for any reason whatsoever because of the crap he's spewing, whether he actually believes it or not.

Just which "Dr's" website are you specifically referring too?   

[pm203]

I really appreciate the feedback from everyone here. It has been extremely helpful in making a decision.I guess the best thing for me to do is to  keep my SERT and find a competent shop to dyno tune it. The bike already runs good as is, so with a nice dyno-tune, I should be able to get it closer to its full overall potential.

[glens]

Like I said earlier, procure the software and cables and run yourself a couple of "smart tunes".  You may well be able to forego a dyno tune.

Just which "Dr's" website are you specifically referring too?   

http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_articles.html

The second-to-last article looks likely to be the "prize-winner" referred to above.

[glens]

This from the last article on the page I linked-to just above:

"Truth is, the O2 sensors are in effect a set of blinders.  Once they get locked into closed loop (also explained in July), they override even perfectly tuned maps and totally ignore altitude and temperature sensors, as well as how hot the oil or the rider gets."

The O2 sensors (properly "lambda probes") don't get locked into closed loop and they don't override a damn thing.  I guess I should address what it was he'd said in "July".  There he "explains" how the sensors drive the fuel rich then lean, or something to that effect, causing a continual "hunting".  It may just be semantics, but those are important, too.  The ECM sends more fuel until the O2 sensor crosses the set point programmed into the ECM (and it's not usually 14.6/14.7 as he says), then the ECM sends less fuel until the sensor crosses back down over the set point, then the ECM sends more fuel until the sensor crosses over the setpoint.  Again and again and again.  There's no "hunting" going on at all, and the sensors aren't driving a thing, they're merely creating DC voltage based upon the oxygen levels in the exhaust as compared to those outside the sensor.  The ECM is driving, not hunting.

He says both in the quoted portion above as well as in the "July" article that the O2 sensors knock the "altitude and temperature sensors" out of use.  Not even close to being the case.  The ECM consults the manifold pressure and intake air temperature sensors each and every engine cycle and it uses that information to compute the amount of fuel required to meet the target set in the fuel table.  Whatever it comes up with is what it adds to or subtracts from to drive the O2 sensor across the target voltage output set in the programming.  Those "other" sensors are vitally important and the ECM relies on them at all times, never disregarding them as he implies.

I can't tell if he doesn't have a clue or if he's just trying to "dumb down" the explanation so everyone who's not him can understand it.  Either way he's not doing anyone any favors.  Either properly describe the system and let the chips fall as they may or talk about something else is the way I see it.

[pm203]

Like I said earlier, procure the software and cables and run yourself a couple of "smart tunes".  You may well be able to forego a dyno tune.

So , what is the difference from a canned map as they call it and a smart-tune. Is the map just a quick band-aid?

[grc]

So , what is the difference from a canned map as they call it and a smart-tune. Is the map just a quick band-aid?

A "canned map" is where you take a map that was developed on some other bike, like what you will find on that CD from Harley, and just install it and run it as is.  If the equipment on your bike exactly matches the equipment on the bike used to make that map, it will probably be close enough for government work.  Consider if you will that the maps that come stock are canned maps.  If you install that canned map and then tweak it via a "smart tune" (SEPST) or V-tune (TTS), you will be customizing that canned map so that it now matches your particular bike more closely.  If you don't feel comfortable doing this stuff, then do the same thing you would do if the plumbing or the heating and cooling systems in your house needed work, hire a qualified professional.  The trick is the qualified part, and the typical Harley dealer is not normally the best choice.

And btw, that last post from glens was right on the money.  I think I remember reading a Dr. Dyno piece in AIM some time back and thinking to myself what a joke it was.  I cancelled my AIM subscription due to stuff like that, with BS "tech" articles that were riddled with errors or misconceptions, as well as passing off advertiser written blurbs as product "reviews".  I wouldn't use that rag to line a bird cage, much less rely on it for any sort of tech help.


Jerry