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[grc]

ABS is not necessarily about stopping quicker, it's all about stopping while maintaining control and the ability to steer.  Experts can keep the tires right on the ragged edge of locking without ABS and can often stop quicker and in less distance, but ABS was created for the other 99% who don't have that ability.  I've always found the toughest thing with ABS is resisting the urge to ease off the brake pedal when the system engages.  It's a very good idea to practice in a safe area to relearn the correct way to brake with ABS, including steering away from an obstacle while maintaining max pressure on the brakes, be it a car or a bike.  It's not as easy as you might think to unlearn what we were taught all those years before ABS became available.

Jerry

btw, on the original subject, many have indicated poor initial rear brake performance on recent model Touring bikes that has improved after accumulating a lot of miles and stops.  It really shouldn't be that way, but I assume it has to do with the choices Harley made for the components on the rear compared to the components used up front.  You can complain and get on record with H-D, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to do anything.  Learn how to bed in the brakes without overheating the pads to quickly get the rear braking power up to snuff.

[Claytoninsc]

Thanks for sharing all the information, I will see where I am when the 1000 service is due.

Safe riding.

[BigLew55]

Lighter, probably,...but better tires,...NO!
All those bikes had high mileage tires. They were retired from patrol. Most were well beyond the wear bars.


My BMW had much better tires. Newer and better.

Maybe faster the BMW had better acceleration?

I don't want to go to far here because you give a LOT of good help to a lot of folks.  Just pointing out that I have yet to see a proper comparison that would prove that ABS bike takes longer to stop than a non-ABS.

[JoeVibe]

I had ABS brakes on my 2011 Heritage and had to make a couple of panic stops and I was amazed at how quickly it stopped and how much control I had over the bike. My new SEUC has ABS but I've not had to test them yet (hopefully I never will). Based on my experience I'll never have another bike without ABS.

[FLY-DOG]

All my early (non-ABS) Harley's didn't need ABS, the brakes were so crappy and weak you couldn't have locked them up if you tried.  The first thing I noticed on my 2012 SESG was the great brakes it has and that they pull the bike down hard.  Before this bike my previous new Harley was a 2005 Road King Custom and the brakes were lousy compared to this new SESG.  All my non-HD bikes have had pretty good brakes for the last 20 years or so, I'm glad HD finally stepped up in this area!!  And yes, the rears do take a while longer to get seated and work properly plus the fact the fronts do most of the work anyway.

[YELLOWBIRD]

I guess it would be safe to say,

"That the MOCO actually FINALLY did something right by going with brembo ABS brake system!"

I know there might have been issues at first with the ABS system prior to the 2009 Models, but

I know that I too will never have a scoot without ABS braking for now on.

Enjoy,

YB

[timo482]

if there is light sand - then you may be avoiding using the front brake

with abs you can use the front brake and you wont fall.

note - new bikes are biased so that 80% of availiable braking capacity is the front brake - the rear is intentionally a also ran

to

[Ironhorse]

Maybe faster the BMW had better acceleration?

I don't want to go to far here because you give a LOT of good help to a lot of folks.  Just pointing out that I have yet to see a proper comparison that would prove that ABS bike takes longer to stop than a non-ABS.

Lew,

Both bikes were doing a leveled off 40mph and initiated braking at the same spot, so acceleration was not a factor.

It's not that ABS takes longer to stop, it's that it takes longer to stop WHEN DEPLOYED. The whole purpose of the demonstration was to show that under ideal conditions, using proper braking technique a non ABS bike can stop quicker than an ABS bike WITH ABS DEPLOYED. This is probably a half-ass explanation, but when ABS is deployed the computer does a fast regulation of braking and rolling, thus the pulsating feel. The rolling actually increases stopping distance because it's rolling. A good progressive application of front and rear brake with no let up, i.e. pulsating, will stop shorter because the bike is not beling released and allowed to roll.   This was to ingrained in us to show the importance of regular practice in braking. Now, under ideal conditions, if the ABS equipped bike does NOT deploy the ABS, and the rider uses good threshold combination braking, than the stops should be the same.

ABS is great for less than ideal conditions, but if a rider is ALWAYS deploying the ABS, even under ideal conditions, he is NOT probably using the brakes properly.  This is why practice is important. The proper technique is to bring the bike right up to the point, or threshold of ABS deploying as that provides the most efficient stopping. As soon as ABS kicks in, the bike will continue to roll, albeit under a computer regulated application. Once again this is under IDEAL conditions. As soon as you add sand, pebbles, undulated surfaces, grass clippings, leaves, water, than ABS wins every time.

ABS is not a panacea. It is not a substitute for good braking techniques and practice. I think quite the reverse. It is MORE reason to practice.

Mark

[BigLew55]

Lew,

Both bikes were doing a leveled off 40mph and initiated braking at the same spot, so acceleration was not a factor.

It's not that ABS takes longer to stop, it's that it takes longer to stop WHEN DEPLOYED. The whole purpose of the demonstration was to show that under ideal conditions, using proper braking technique a non ABS bike can stop quicker than an ABS bike WITH ABS DEPLOYED. This is probably a half-ass explanation, but when ABS is deployed the computer does a fast regulation of braking and rolling, thus the pulsating feel. The rolling actually increases stopping distance because it's rolling. A good progressive application of front and rear brake with no let up, i.e. pulsating, will stop shorter because the bike is not beling released and allowed to roll.   This was to ingrained in us to show the importance of regular practice in braking. Now, under ideal conditions, if the ABS equipped bike does NOT deploy the ABS, and the rider uses good threshold combination braking, than the stops should be the same.

ABS is great for less than ideal conditions, but if a rider is ALWAYS deploying the ABS, even under ideal conditions, he is NOT probably using the brakes properly.  This is why practice is important. The proper technique is to bring the bike right up to the point, or threshold of ABS deploying as that provides the most efficient stopping. As soon as ABS kicks in, the bike will continue to roll, albeit under a computer regulated application. Once again this is under IDEAL conditions. As soon as you add sand, pebbles, undulated surfaces, grass clippings, leaves, water, than ABS wins every time.

ABS is not a panacea. It is not a substitute for good braking techniques and practice. I think quite the reverse. It is MORE reason to practice.

Mark

Mark, I agree with most of this, but still assert that the underlying event is not a fair example.  A true comparison would have been to demonstrate ABS activation vs. wheel lock-up.  That's been my beef with folks (all over the internet and face to face, you're certainly not the first) using this "test".  The only thing the example proves is that you can't use the ABS to apply maximum braking all the time, which I think is what you were explaining as well.

I completely agree that ABS is no replacement for good and frequent practice!

[Ironhorse]

Mark, I agree with most of this, but still assert that the underlying event is not a fair example.  A true comparison would have been to demonstrate ABS activation vs. wheel lock-up.  That's been my beef with folks (all over the internet and face to face, you're certainly not the first) using this "test".  The only thing the example proves is that you can't use the ABS to apply maximum braking all the time, which I think is what you were explaining as well.

I completely agree that ABS is no replacement for good and frequent practice!

I totally misunderstood you Lew.

ABS Deployed VS wheel lock up,...ABS wins hands down every time. Once the wheels are locked up, the bike might as well be on ice. They demo'd that too. That's why the ideal is threshold combination braking, bringing the bike to the point of imminent lock up, but not locking it up. That is getting maximum usage out of the brakes.

Mark.

[BigLew55]

I totally misunderstood you Lew.

ABS Deployed VS wheel lock up,...ABS wins hands down every time. Once the wheels are locked up, the bike might as well be on ice. They demo'd that too. That's why the ideal is threshold combination braking, bringing the bike to the point of imminent lock up, but not locking it up. That is getting maximum usage out of the brakes.

Mark.

I think we are in the same place.

It's definately a safety net in case you overshoot the threshhold, not a performance enhancer.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I think we are in the same place.

It's definately a safety net in case you overshoot the threshhold, not a performance enhancer.

And that is why I believe in ABS, and insist on in on my wifes bikes.

In a panic, car pulling out in front of you or such, people tend to over react.

[Ironhorse]

And that is why I believe in ABS, and insist on in on my wifes bikes.

In a panic, car pulling out in front of you or such, people tend to over react.

Most coaches and instructors would say people tend to react as they have been taught, or trained. In addition to the ABS, perhaps your wife might benefit from some regular scheduled practice. It doesn't have to be too involved, just once a month for ten or fifteen minutes. I suggest to folks that if the ride starts at 10am, show up at the meeting spot at 9:30 and spend a few mins practicing. That way when you ride out, you will be warmed up and in the correct mind set. There is a reason all athletes warm up with the fundamentals before a game.

Mark

[ultrafxr]

Most coaches and instructors would say people tend to react as they have been taught, or trained. In addition to the ABS, perhaps your wife might benefit from some regular scheduled practice. It doesn't have to be too involved, just once a month for ten or fifteen minutes. I suggest to folks that if the ride starts at 10am, show up at the meeting spot at 9:30 and spend a few mins practicing. That way when you ride out, you will be warmed up and in the correct mind set. There is a reason all athletes warm up with the fundamentals before a game.

Mark

Absolutely right.  That is why it is vital to use the correct techniques all the time.  Both brakes every time you stop, all four fingers on front brake lever.  That way during an emergency situation when you truly don't have time to think you will respond almost automatically as you have trained yourself.

[timo482]

i always use the front brake - always

when riding in a group - i want to be at the back, if im in the front i find something happens with uncanny regularity - i stop dead in my tracks - guys fly by me on both sides rear tire smoking & whoever i was stopping for heading for the shoulder or ditch.

id rather spectate than participate in rear tire braking demonstrations

of course each year i get older i ride and drive slower all around.......

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