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RJ749

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At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« on: April 16, 2007, 07:14:45 PM »

At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus

BLACKSBURG, Va. - Thirty-three people, including the gunman, were killed at a Virginia university Monday in the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history. At least 15 other people were injured, some of them as they leaped to safety from the fourth floor of a classroom building.

The shootings, which took place in two locations on campus, came just four days before the eighth anniversary of the Columbine High School bloodbath near Littleton, Colo. They created panic and confusion at the college, where students and employees angrily asked why the first e-mail warning did not go out to them until the gunman had struck a second time.

Nearly 50 victims
Federal law enforcement officials said the gunman killed himself after he shot dozens of people at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg, in southwest Virginia. Thirty-two people plus the shooter were confirmed dead.

In addition to the 33 dead, hospitals reported that 15 people were injured, some of whom had jumped from the fourth floor of the classroom building where the second wave of shootings took place. Five were in stable condition; the conditions of the others were not immediately reported.

Investigators told NBC News that they had been unable to positively identify the gunman, who died after he shot himself in the face. He carried no ID or cell phone, and an initial check on his fingerprints came up empty.

Witnesses described him as a man in his 20s, wearing a maroon cap and a black leather jacket. A spokesman for the FBI in Washington said there was no immediate evidence to suggest that the incident was a terrorist attack, “but all avenues will be explored.”

“Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions,” said Charles Steger, the university’s president. “The university is shocked and indeed horrified.”

President Bush said in a brief televised statement: “Schools should be places of sanctuary and safety and learning. When that sanctuary is violated, the impact is felt in every American classroom and every American community. Today, our nation grieves with those who have lost loved ones at Virginia Tech.”

Warnings came too late
Steger and law enforcement authorities gave this account of the day’s events in public statements and comments to NBC News:

The rampage began about 7:15 a.m. ET at West Ambler Johnston, a coeducational residence hall that houses 895 people. The gunman, armed with a 9-mm pistol and a .22-caliber handgun, killed two people there before making his way to Norris Hall, an engineering classroom building on the opposite end of the 2,600-acre campus.

About 9:15, the gunman chained the doors of the classroom building so his potential victims could not escape and police could not enter. There, he shot as many as 46 more people.

Not until 9:26 did the first warning to students and employees go out by e-mail, according to the time stamps on copies obtained by NBC News. By then, the classroom shooting was well under way.

The first e-mail had few details. It said: “A shooting incident occurred at West Amber Johnston earlier this morning. Police are on the scene and are investigating.” The message warned students to be cautious and contact police about anything suspicious.

Maurice Hiller, a student, told The Associated Press that he went to a 9 a.m. class just two buildings away from the engineering building and that no warnings were coming over the outdoor public address system on campus at the time.

Steger said at a briefing for reporters that administrators and police initially believed the first shooting was an isolated domestic incident and did not see a need to close the university. Steger said they believed the gunman had fled the campus.

“We can only make decisions based on the information you had on the time. You don’t have hours to reflect on it,” he said.

Inside the engineering building, an “unreal” and bloody scene was unfolding.

“None of us thought it could have been gunshots,” a student who identified himself as Trey Perkins told MSNBC’s Chris Jansing in a telephone interview. “... I’m not sure how long it lasted. It seemed like a really long time.”

Perkins said the gunman never said a word. “He didn’t say, ‘Get down.’ He didn’t say anything.” He just started shooting.”

The gunman left that classroom and then tried to return, but students kept him out by bracing the door closed with their feet. “He started to try to come in again and started shooting through the door,” Perkins said, but hit no one.

“I got on the ground and I was just thinking, like, there’s no way I’m going to survive this,” Perkins said. “All I could keep thinking of was my mom.”

Until Monday, the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history was in Killeen, Texas, in 1991, when George Hennard plowed his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot 23 people to death, then himself.

The deadliest previous campus shooting in U.S. history took place in 1966 at the University of Texas, where Charles Whitman climbed to the 28th-floor observation deck of a clock tower and opened fire. He killed 16 people before he was gunned down by police.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/?GT1=9246

« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 07:17:27 PM by Rjob749 »
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RJ749

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2007, 07:16:43 PM »

I can't even relate to this.  I hadn't seen the news since getting to work and now find that the numbers have climbed into the 30's.

Unbelievable in every sense...........it just leaves you numb.

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2007, 07:17:12 PM »

Been reading/watching that all day. Got a call from my daughter this morning telling me about it. I'm just thankful that is not the school she is attending. That's some scarey chit!!!! :nervous:

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RJ749

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2007, 07:18:54 PM »

Been reading/watching that all day. Got a call from my daughter this morning telling me about it. I'm just thankful that is not the school she is attending. That's some scarey chit!!!! :nervous:

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Gary, I didn't even want to ask.  So glad to see your post.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2007, 07:19:23 PM »

very scary, but i suspect the real tragedy will be overshadowed by political posturing of those on the campaign trail

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2007, 07:29:50 PM »

Gary, I didn't even want to ask.  So glad to see your post.
Thankfully she is fine, but I believe it gave her a reality check. So often (myself included) when we are young we feel we are invincible. While talking to her this morning she started telling me how even though the dorms at her campus are secured and you have to have card key to get in they aren't really as secure as you think. The doors are handicap accessible so that means they automatically stay open longer so someone could walk in behind you, people going out let others in all the time just being courteous (wife has got in the dorm couple times like that), etc, etc. So many kids and others walk around these days w/iPods and other devices w/music so loud that they can't really hear their surroundings. I've noticed females walking/jogging late at night w/devices like this on and it just sends chills up my body. They don't realize how easy it would be for somebody to sneak up behind them and do harm to them.

I explained to her that's why I always worry about her and I think she had some understanding this morning. I didn't get the "Aww Daddy I'll be alright, nothing is going to happen to me".

I feel for the parents, relatives, friends, of those that were killed, and also for the students, faculty, employees of Va.Tech. This is the second time this year that there has been a shooting incident on that campus. My thoughts and prayers go out for all those that were affected by this tragedy.

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2007, 07:50:00 PM »

My nephew [sisters son] goes to Va Tech. His dorm room is in Amber Johnston West where the first shootings occured.

At 7:15 am he was in the shower when he heard gun shots.
At 7:30 am he was told to evacuate the 4th floor of the dorm. The shootings were just 5 doors down the hall.
He and his room mate were led to the dining hall. They were told that they could go to class.
After eating he was going to a Lab across the drill field from Norris Hall, where the next shootings were. He heard the shootings there in the lecture hall where the Engineering students were.
He tried to enter the dorm to get his books but was not allowed in the Dorm.  It was locked down.

One of his friends from Smithfield Va, Matthew Webster, was shot in the face and shoulder. He will be OK!

My hopes are that he will be able to continue his education and this will not scar him for life.


Ryan told me that the gunman went into the dorm and had an argument with his girlfriend. The R A interviened and was shot , then the girlfriend was shot.
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RJ749

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2007, 08:00:42 PM »

Scarey time, glad your nephew is ok and his friend will recover.

What a totally unbelievable event.  When it comes down to it, there really isn't much between us and some desperate person like this.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 08:04:42 PM »

Hogasm,

So sorry to hear about your nephews friend.  Have many friends with kids there and my daughter has a lot of friends there as well.  Holding our breath that everyone is okay.  So far it seems like they all are.

Thanks god she (my daughter) is at Auburn, almost was at VT.

My thoughts and prayers to all the students and families!!!
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 08:34:43 PM »

A terrible tragedy.

Glad your nephew is ok Hogasm.  Our thoughts and prayers are with his friend and all others who were injured or perished - and their families and friends and others affected as a result of this senseless act.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 08:40:55 PM »

Like the rest of the nation we're shocked and sickened by today's events. Many thoughts and prayers but in the end we're just terribly sad.
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hogasm

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 09:04:10 PM »

Just talked to my nephew, he is trying to get away from the media circus. He said that if he leaves campus that he would not be allowed back on campus, to a date to be determined.

School is closed to a date to be determined.

He does not know when he will be allowed in his dorm.
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 10:44:14 PM »

I am so very sorry for the deaths of these young people and yet at the same time so very grateful we live in a country with the wisdom, compassion and strength of faith that is America. The survivors of this terrible tragedy will heal and move on with their lives, remembering always those who died. The parents of those dead will greive, each in their own way and in time will move on, always remembering their children, always wondering what the world was shortchanged of in their premature deaths. We as a nation will move on, always remembering and hopefully learning from this. What we won't do, and what separates us from many nations on earth is that we will not seek revenge on the family of the person responsible for this. We will not create more suffering to ease our own pain. If there is anything to give thanks for in this terrible time of grief, it is that. God bless all who died, those who survived, all of their families and God Bless America.

B B
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2007, 10:54:17 PM »

I am left numb by this news...
just when you think it cant get any worse..it does...
my heart goes out to these young people who were just trying to get through their day

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 06:27:47 AM »

To slaughter innocent people is just unimaginable
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 09:45:50 AM »

Resident alien, are they legally allowed to own fireams?  Doesn't really matter anyone can purchase a firearms and do this chit and impossiable to stop.  Hope he burns in hell...........
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RJ749

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 10:05:12 AM »

Resident alien, are they legally allowed to own fireams?  Doesn't really matter anyone can purchase a firearms and do this chit and impossiable to stop.  Hope he burns in hell...........

There are several laws that could apply from Virginia:

Purchase of Multiple Handguns in Virginia

The 1993 Virginia General Assembly amended and reenacted §18.2-308.2:2, Code of Virginia, making it unlawful for any person who is not a licensed firearms dealer to purchase more than 1 handgun within any 30-day period. The Virginia State Police is responsible for accepting and processing the Multiple Handgun Purchase Application and Multiple Handgun Purchase Certificate, when purchases in excess of one handgun within a 30-day period can be justified.

A legal alien can own a gun:

§ 18.2-308.2:01. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by certain persons.

It shall be unlawful for any person who is not a citizen of the United States or who is not a person lawfully admitted for permanent residence to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport any assault firearm or to knowingly and intentionally carry about his person, hidden from common observation, an assault firearm. It shall be unlawful for any person who is not a citizen of the United States and who is not lawfully present in the United States to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport any firearm or to knowingly and intentionally carry about his person, hidden from common observation, any firearm. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony.

Since he was a lawful resident he can own a gun.  No waiting period and a drivers license, along with the Federal instant check gets you a handgun.

I doubt it would matter with this guy whether he could get one legally or not, he would have gotten them.  It remains to be seen if he filed off the serial numbers or if he bought hot guns.


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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 10:19:57 AM »

......

Since he was a lawful resident he can own a gun.  No waiting period and a drivers license, along with the Federal instant check gets you a handgun.

I doubt it would matter with this guy whether he could get one legally or not, he would have gotten them.  It remains to be seen if he filed off the serial numbers or if he bought hot guns.



The news stated this morning that one of the guns was purchased within the last two weeks, and I'm believing it stated last Friday. Also the serial numbers were "tampered" with in a way as not to make them easily traced. 

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2007, 10:26:15 AM »

Just found a site that has a lot of information on owning/possessing firearms - Brady Campaign State Gun Laws. You can select your state and find out what the laws are.

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2007, 10:26:58 AM »

i hate to push this in the direction of a firearms debate, but since I'm sure Hillary will take care of that herself.

i believe statistics will show these types of violent crimes are typically not committed by those that legally posses firearms. imposing more gun control only hurts law abiding citizens.

politicians will use this to reenact the large capacity ban. because he used large capacity clips. this guy was prepared for a war, it wouldn't have matter if he had a few large cap. clips or many small cap. clips.

he committed a criminal act and if he hadn't taken his own life. he would have been prosecuted and most likely given the death penalty.

making it more difficult for Roger to hunt or for me to target shoot will never stop someone who sets out on a premeditated rampage
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2007, 10:36:10 AM »

i hate to push this in the direction of a firearms debate, but since I'm sure Hillary will take care of that herself.

i believe statistics will show these types of violent crimes are typically not committed by those that legally posses firearms. imposing more gun control only hurts law abiding citizens.

politicians will use this to reenact the large capacity ban. because he used large capacity clips. this guy was prepared for a war, it wouldn't have matter if he had a few large cap. clips or many small cap. clips.

he committed a criminal act and if he hadn't taken his own life. he would have been prosecuted and most likely given the death penalty.

making it more difficult for Roger to hunt or for me to target shoot will never stop someone who sets out on a premeditated rampage
So very true creating more/stricter laws will not change things. Has it changed drug use/dealing? Those that want to commit/do these type of activities will find a way. I think the more laws created to stop them sometimes leads to more illegal enterprises to profit from them. :nixweiss:

I heard on the news that there was a law/bill limiting the size of clips for automatic handguns that has recently expired. As Neal stated only difference this would have made in this situation is he would have just had more clips. His intent was to kill/harm as many people as he could by any means necessary.

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RJ749

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2007, 10:36:41 AM »

Just found a site that has a lot of information on owning/possessing firearms - Brady Campaign State Gun Laws. You can select your state and find out what the laws are.
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Here's the NRA source for State laws: www.nraila.org/GunLaws/
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2007, 10:42:02 AM »

i hate to push this in the direction of a firearms debate, but since I'm sure Hillary will take care of that herself.

i believe statistics will show these types of violent crimes are typically not committed by those that legally posses firearms. imposing more gun control only hurts law abiding citizens.

politicians will use this to reenact the large capacity ban. because he used large capacity clips. this guy was prepared for a war, it wouldn't have matter if he had a few large cap. clips or many small cap. clips.

he committed a criminal act and if he hadn't taken his own life. he would have been prosecuted and most likely given the death penalty.

making it more difficult for Roger to hunt or for me to target shoot will never stop someone who sets out on a premeditated rampage

Agreed.  It remains easier for some to place blame on the instrument used - in this case hand guns with clips - than on the evil of the actual person committed to committing a heinous crime.  I favor strong laws that require jail time for committing a crime with a gun - even if it is not fired.  Law abiding citizens should not suffer loss of freedoms due to the actions of a small percentage of maniacs.

The security/lack thereof discussions will also prove to be long reaching as well for campuses everywhere. Video surveillance all over the place is my best guess.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2007, 10:45:48 AM »

i hate to push this in the direction of a firearms debate, but since I'm sure Hillary will take care of that herself.

i believe statistics will show these types of violent crimes are typically not committed by those that legally posses firearms. imposing more gun control only hurts law abiding citizens.

politicians will use this to reenact the large capacity ban. because he used large capacity clips. this guy was prepared for a war, it wouldn't have matter if he had a few large cap. clips or many small cap. clips.

he committed a criminal act and if he hadn't taken his own life. he would have been prosecuted and most likely given the death penalty.

making it more difficult for Roger to hunt or for me to target shoot will never stop someone who sets out on a premeditated rampage

+1
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RJ749

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2007, 10:58:46 AM »

i hate to push this in the direction of a firearms debate, but since I'm sure Hillary will take care of that herself.

i believe statistics will show these types of violent crimes are typically not committed by those that legally posses firearms. imposing more gun control only hurts law abiding citizens.

politicians will use this to reenact the large capacity ban. because he used large capacity clips. this guy was prepared for a war, it wouldn't have matter if he had a few large cap. clips or many small cap. clips.

he committed a criminal act and if he hadn't taken his own life. he would have been prosecuted and most likely given the death penalty.

making it more difficult for Roger to hunt or for me to target shoot will never stop someone who sets out on a premeditated rampage

I found it very interesting that this was as thought out as it was.  This madman went about this in a calculated manner.

To think that he would be able to inflict this amount of pain and suffering in a short time shows how vulnerable we are to such attack.  This speculation could open up an incredible amount of discussion regarding our "homeland Security" but I digress.

In the past much of the focus of "anti" gun advocates has been on assault weapons and rifles.  Never before has someone dealt this kind of devastation at close range with handguns, especially a .22 and a 9mm.  Basically a target shooters choice with the .22 and the same weapon many police carry today in the 9mm.

Other than a metal detector at the entrance to every building that is entered and a policeman in every room, there is little if anything that can be done to stop a determined shooter in this type of an act.  Ultimately the policeman in the room and metal detectors would not stop a determined criminal/terrorist.

This debate is and will continue to be a vicious circle.

Today in New Orleans more right to carry permits are issued than before Katrina and there is less than half the population.  

I have a carry permit (mostly for transport) and I do not carry.  Would someone that was carrying slowed or stopped the shooting at VT?  We'll never know.

However, it is apparent that Cho Seung-Hui was aiming and not just firing wildly.  The devastation would have been great regardless of the defense with this madman.

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2007, 11:05:14 AM »

NO, is a story unto itself. last i heard Mayor Nagin is still facing leagl trouble for the illeagle seizures done during and after katrina
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2007, 11:52:54 AM »

One law enforcement official said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2007, 12:33:54 PM »

Heartwrenching story. Of course crys for more weapons control are already being heard. If someone amongst the majority Grad students targeted had a conceal carry permit, their piece was likely in the car, as Va forbids carrying on school grounds. I drive a truck and am from Michigan but used to live in Va. Now as I travel as a CDL holder I am not allowed to carry regardless so says the DOT even though there is no law specifiying it. Michigan now outlawed a stun gun, so much for that Idea. Guess my government wants me to be unprotected. Many Mace sprays have been outlawed. As a society we elect these jokers who have routinely worked to disarm us whenever anything like this happens - I think we should have a waiting period on voting on these laws. This guy had a plan, he chained the doors shut, chilling. Just as chilling is the thought that he could have chained the doors shut, started a fire, killed just as many, and then what - outlaw matches? My heart is heavy, but it beats with rage when I hear someone using this to scream gun control already. 
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2007, 02:17:45 PM »

Our prayers here go out to the victims and their families as well as friends and the Emergency First Responders who had to deal with this tragedy.
I hope they all can heal in time and try to regain some form of a "normal life".
I understand the need for society to try to place blame and make our children safer. Advance planning and drills can help at times in developing a plan of action to minimize the death toll but we will never eliminate the chance of it happening.
Passing any laws, gun control or otherwise is just a pacifier to society and gives them a false sense of security.
There are enough laws on the books already for situations like this.
As others have mentioned had the suspect lived he would be on trial for 30 plus charges of murder,15 or so charges of attempted murder,45 or so counts of use of a firearm to commit a felony, Multiple counts of kidnapping (for locking the doors and keeping folks captive),two counts of carrying a concealed weapon,two counts of weapon on school grounds,untold number of charges of discharging a weapon or brandishing a weapon, two Federal charges of altering a weapon(serial numbers) as well as other charges as the investigation continues. If the suspect was not put to death he would get hundreds of years in jail for violating the existing laws.
Yet the thought of the death penalty or hundreds of years in jail did NOT deter the suspect and prevent him from acting.
I have seen mention of automatic handguns or assault weapons mentioned by the media and that is just wrong! The large capacity ban that Clinton and the Brady group passed years ago has expired. It had limited magazine (Not clip) capacity to 10 rounds. The only thing that did was create a market for more concealable handguns since the race for large capacity guns was halted. The smaller more concealable guns made it harder for people to detect them when concealed.
The Semiautomatic handguns the suspect had were not "assault weapons" by any means but the media brings up AK-47s in the same breath sometimes. Those Semiautomatic rifles the media despises aren't even built for full auto fire like an AK-47. I wish they would get things right sometimes.
Sorry for the politics at a time like this. I hope society spends more effort and money on healing all of those affected.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2007, 02:37:40 PM »

My thoughts on this as far as from the Gun Stand point is as follows. As long as you have laws that limit where you can have and carry firearms, Then this type of thing will continue (Example) NO FIREARMS allowed on any school Grounds. (makes for a un-fearing person shooting gallery) Had one person (teacher) or Student Could have returned fire then Death Toll might not have been as large.

9-11-2001 No Airline pilots where allowed to carry firearms (TODAY) They are allowed Because of the very fact that had they had them they would have had a fighting chance to save some lives and maybe the Twin Towers would still be here.

The Schools are for Victims that why they are easy targets!

These are my thoughts yours may be different, Things happen for a reason it's the only thing that can keep you sane, My prayers are with the family's.

 :soapbox:
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2007, 03:00:32 PM »

Lest anyone forget, Oklahoma City was diesel fuel and fertilizer. No law against buying either, even in large quantities if you have farm permits. Whatever the means, it's the person delivering it , not the means itself that kills. If there's a debate on this tragedy, it should be about the University's Police Departments response to the first two deaths. Period

B B
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2007, 03:18:11 PM »

Lest anyone forget, Oklahoma City was diesel fuel and fertilizer. No law against buying either, even in large quantities if you have farm permits. Whatever the means, it's the person delivering it , not the means itself that kills. If there's a debate on this tragedy, it should be about the University's Police Departments response to the first two deaths. Period

B B
BB,
Not to argue or disagree w/your thoughts/feelings. There has been a lot of armchair quarterbacking regarding the LEO, VT Admin, on how they handled the earlier killings. I'm not trying to defend them, but I think their train of thought was this was a domestic situation concerning two individuals (girlfriend and boyfriend) with and innocent bystander coming to the aid of the girlfriend. My thought is that they were thinking of previous incidents such as this and the perpetrator normally tries to get as far away as they possible can from the incident or remains at the scene possible seeking death by LEO. To think that this person (not knowing who the person was at that time) would leave the immediate area and stick around to commit more homicides doesn't fit any MO's in the past.

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2007, 03:50:08 PM »

I know we are all saddened but this tragedy, but I don't think blame should be placed until all the facts are in. From what I've heard, it started out as a domestic incident, and the camups and local police were told the the gunman had fled the campus. I'm sure in the future things will be dealt with differently, but you can't cover all scenarios, just the ones that are more likely to happen. Unfortunately this will be a learning experience for law enforcement for the future.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2007, 04:04:16 PM »

In America we do not act to prevent problems.  We are however well known for our reaction  in trying to solve the nation's problems.   Following 911 I told my wife we were going to join the ACLU in anticipation of a major reaction that would seriously curtail our rights and liberties. The Patriot Act is what followed.  If you object to your phone being tapped or the feds examining the books you check out of the library, your branded as unpatriotic.

I am not into guns but if I were, I'd be concerned about a big reaction via new gun control legislation.      The NRA and ACLU may be your friends. 

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2007, 05:33:18 PM »

Just seeing this story.  Unfortunately not incomprehensible.  But sad nonetheless.  Terribly terribly sad.  Whether it be the deranged individual that went to a Scottish school with (completely legal) hunting weapons, the incredibly angry and paranoid that take fuel and fertilizer to public buildings or the certifiable that climb towers with rifles no one is ever absolutely safe from determined madmen.  The more open is a society the more that is so. 

After Columbine and now Virginia Tech and the too many other such mass attacks one has to begin to wonder about the tactics of response.  Partly out of human nature, partly out of fear, partly out of reason it's inculcated in everyone from an early age not to challenge in hot situations.  You'll be better off; so we're told.

One has to wonder how many might have perished if several from the first classroom had charged this guy.  Not given him the opportunity to continue.  I know, I know, it's only an arm chair quarterback reaction.  It's too much to ask a group of unarmed civilians to do a fool's charge against an armed psychotic.  Even the people on United 93 had to have time to think about it and work up to the act.  But reaction rather than free rein....  You can't help but wonder.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2007, 09:39:49 PM »

BB,
Not to argue or disagree w/your thoughts/feelings. There has been a lot of armchair quarterbacking regarding the LEO, VT Admin, on how they handled the earlier killings. I'm not trying to defend them, but I think their train of thought was this was a domestic situation concerning two individuals (girlfriend and boyfriend) with and innocent bystander coming to the aid of the girlfriend. My thought is that they were thinking of previous incidents such as this and the perpetrator normally tries to get as far away as they possible can from the incident or remains at the scene possible seeking death by LEO. To think that this person (not knowing who the person was at that time) would leave the immediate area and stick around to commit more homicides doesn't fit any MO's in the past.

 :pumpkin:
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Gary,
       If we agree to disagree then we have a discussion. If we accept everything on face value we have nothing. Ever since Kent State, I have had a deep seated distrust of authority in all forms. I suspect I will take that to my grave.

B B
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #36 on: April 17, 2007, 09:50:43 PM »

Gary,
       If we agree to disagree then we have a discussion. If we accept everything on face value we have nothing. Ever since Kent State, I have had a deep seated distrust of authority in all forms. I suspect I will take that to my grave.

B B
I can respect that and probably one time in my life felt the same. I grew up in the hood, in a small city in the south, and I was pretty much an adult before there was a black person on the police force. For much of my life I had a distrust of authority, however now from being in public safety I have a different view. I'm not going to say that "authority" is perfect, fair, or even make the right decisions all the time, but from being around them and seeing how they operate I have a better understanding now.

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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2007, 10:17:22 PM »

Lots of folks after LE and the schools heads for this one along with gun owners rights, understandably. I would argue lawyers are the problem. Turns out this guy was a nutcase, extremely disturbed, and school counslers and mental health officials knew it, but he is an adult and they feared taking any proactive action would invite the likes of the ACLU. As for school officials and LEO, I assume the school defers to LEO, who correctly saw the first incident as a domestic violence event. They took hours to carry out the initial assessment and track down of a "Suspect" (wrong guy) because they probably were watching every step, very very closely, for fear of a defense lawyer getting someone off on a technicality. The school failed to make a big deal of it, but then LE thought it was a domestic violence issue, if you were them you probably would too - it was - and unfortunately its common.  Yet it is not likely that the suspect would return to campus to committ a mass murder. I would almost say the two events should be looked at as two seperate events. As for locking the school down, I live in a town of 26,000 people - the size of this campus, you couldn't shut my town down if there were a shooting. I am torn on this, I listened to radio coverage all day while on the road and feel like a wreck, ready to ball as I watch the pics of these kids tonite. I would say pass a gun control law tommorrow - if I thought it would do anything.  This is a mental illness issue regarding the killer. It is a communication issue regarding LEO and the school, and all schools will now have a psycho alarm alongside the tornado alarm.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2007, 12:34:55 AM »

Let me say that I am totally shocked by this and my prayers go out to the family's, a terrible...terrible tragedy.
I worry about my Daughter in Florida, and think of her everyday.
It strikes a bit home because my wife (she is very upset) is South Korean and it appears that the shooter was also South Korean, could this happen in South Korea..no..why because it's darn near impossible to own a gun there.
Over there it's feet and fists and the occasional knife, but if you're intent on taking someones life you don't need a gun to do it, the gun just makes it easier.
So it boils down to the availably of guns here in this country no matter who you are, don't get me wrong I own more guns than I need, actually most are Antiques because it is a side hobby.

The gun debate will more than likely arise again and possibly some laws will be passed, but laws to stop resident Aliens from owning guns is obviously not the answer.
Do I know the answer....Absolutely not.
Wish I were smart enough to figure it out.....maybe the answer is to ban all guns...but being a realist that will never fly in this country.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2007, 10:12:44 AM »

My thoughts on this as far as from the Gun Stand point is as follows. As long as you have laws that limit where you can have and carry firearms, Then this type of thing will continue (Example) NO FIREARMS allowed on any school Grounds. (makes for a un-fearing person shooting gallery) Had one person (teacher) or Student Could have returned fire then Death Toll might not have been as large.

9-11-2001 No Airline pilots where allowed to carry firearms (TODAY) They are allowed Because of the very fact that had they had them they would have had a fighting chance to save some lives and maybe the Twin Towers would still be here.

The Schools are for Victims that why they are easy targets!

These are my thoughts yours may be different, Things happen for a reason it's the only thing that can keep you sane, My prayers are with the family's.

 :soapbox:

You are spot on!!!!
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2007, 10:17:36 AM »

I am not into guns but if I were, I'd be concerned about a big reaction via new gun control legislation.      The NRA and ACLU may be your friends. 


[/quote]

The NRA is absolutely our friends.  Without this organization the US would be a very different and scary place.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2007, 09:32:48 PM »

 :(  It has been a rough couple of days.  The emails from our friends and our HOG family saying their daughter or son had survived, then the emails that some did not.  This is in our back yard and the entire community - extended and all - are hurting pretty bad.  Bad!   :(
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2007, 09:54:26 PM »

If any of you are near a funeral please check with the patriot guard riders and see if they will be attending as word is those psycho losers from a baptist church in Kansas are going to protest at some of the funerals, I've been to a few of the military funerals they attended and the patriot guard pretty much hides them from sight and keeps them from being heard. Free speech, fine - these people at these times is a hate crime if you ask me.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 06:09:46 PM by Ceej »
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2007, 09:09:57 AM »

This is very sad indeed,  thoughts and prayer go out to all the victims.  But why they give this guy anymore air time is just crazy in my mind.  My daughter how attends WSU had classes cancelled because someone wrote a note on the Bathroom wall the next day.
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Re: At least 33 dead in rampage on Virginia campus
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2007, 10:27:21 AM »

This is very sad indeed,  thoughts and prayer go out to all the victims.  But why they give this guy anymore air time is just crazy in my mind.  My daughter how attends WSU had classes cancelled because someone wrote a note on the Bathroom wall the next day.

Sorry to hear of the incident in Pullman Magoo.  I agree that this gives far to much exposure to the killer.

I wish MSN would take his friggin' pic off the home page, in fact I'm changin' my home page right now.  http://www.google.com No content on this page.

Go Cougs :2vrolijk_21:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 10:29:59 AM by Rjob749 »
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