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[ccr]

I have been an H-D owner for over five years.  I currently own a '03 Road King, a '05 BMW R1200RT and a '98 Honda Magna.  I previously owned a '03 V-Rod.
Every year when the new H-Ds are announced and reviewed, I keep waiting for the guffaws when gthe prices are given.  Of course, they are elbowed out of the way by the requisite complimentary reviews.  Same this year on the CVOs, the annual Emperor’s New Clothes reviews.  When is someone going to come out and say (between laughing fits) that up to $35,000 for a cruiser that struggles to break 80 hp is laughable?  Even at those prices, almost every buyer will have to spend more to correct shortcomings, like the seats and horns.  And why aren’t they called mid-sized?
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy riding my Road King, aside from the pitiful brakes and lack of room in the riding position.  At 6’3”, I am too cramped on it for much time in the saddle.  I have tried four seats and three different handlebars in various combinations to add room.  My BMW and Magna will both run circles around the Road King and are roomier.
The RT tops 100 hp.  When you get one, you don’t need to replace anything.  After riding the RT, riding the H-D is like driving a BMW and then driving an old Chevy.  Both are fun, but who will be first to say that an H-D that is 60% higher in price and puts out a bit less in hp than a BMW, or nearly double the price of a Starliner, 109 VTX is absurd?  
Jim Williams, San Antonio, TX.

[ccr]

MSN response - Jim we tend to think that CVO prices, like prices in general, are a matter of economics:  If the company can get those kinds of prices, who’s to say they are crazy.  Also, the rate of depreciation on used CVOs is the same as on standard Big Twins as nearly as we can determine.

[ccr]

Don’t Hate Harleys – January 2008 MCN
Re: Mr. Jim Williams’ letter regarding the high prices of the CVO Harley-Davidson models, I can accept that $35,000 is a lot of cash for any motorcycle.  However, what I take issue with is the rest of his letter that basically boils down to: “I have a Road King and it’[s s inferior in all ways to the other two motorcycles that I own.” Mr. Williams, don’t hate.  If you dislike the motorcycles that much, then sell it.  I personally don’t care if you think other motorcycles are superior to H-D’s product line.
Yes, I own a Harley.  Do I think that own the most technologically advanced bike on the planet?  No.  But that’s not the point of owning a Harley.  Finally when it comes downs to it, I can ride my ol’ POS just as far as you can ride your BMW (I just may be a few minutes behind you…) okay?
John Sannes, Rosamond, CA

[ccr]

Separating Motorcycling and H-D January 2008 MCN
After reading Jim William’ letter in last month’s MCN titled “Outrageous CVO Prices,” I felt compelled to add my tow cents regarding the Harley value proposition. 

The editor is correct to assert that Harley-Davidson would be crazy not to charge what the market will bear.  They do, and it does.
I know because I participated in the market for 210 years for over 200,000 trouble=-free miles on three Harleys.  Like many, I thought the value was great – I loved my cool Harleys and I loved the motorcycling, believing the two were one and the same.  However, with time (and MCN) as a teacher, I came to quietly question Harley’s value proposition, a blasphemy I dared not share with my riding buddies.

Then a funny thing happened on my way through the hps on a R2250RT: I began to realize that my love affair with motorcycling and very little to do with Harley-Davidson. After returning from a second High Alpine Adventure on the R1200RT, the Harley value proposition had entirely lost its luster.  Now able to more objectively assess my motorcycling “needs,” I began secretly evaluating the bikes of other manufacturers.
Then, with the urging, no, make that the insistence of a friend (a former Harley rider and flat track Harley factory racer himself), I did the previously unthinkable and bought a, er, uh, a-a Honda!! – Specifically, a ’06 Gold Wing with ABS. So what do I think about the Wing’s performance and total value proposition? One word says it all: Wow!
The transition is now completed. These days the Fat Boy collects a lot of dust while the Wing chews up the miles, the curves and any Harley on the road. It’s perhaps unfortunate for Harley-Davidson, but anyone who really aspires to simple yet exhilarating joys that “motorcycling”: has to offer must eventually come to the inescapable conclusion that what Harley really sells is image, not motorcycles.
Anyone who rides a Harley and loves riding for riding’s sake owes it themselves to swing their leg over another bike. Once you have, your notion of the “value proposition” will quickly evolve and you’ll know it’s time to move on.
Steve Bennett

[grc]

... It’s perhaps unfortunate for Harley-Davidson, but anyone who really aspires to simple yet exhilarating joys that “motorcycling” has to offer must eventually come to the inescapable conclusion that what Harley really sells is image, not motorcycles.
...

Basic Marketing 101; if all you have is image or style, then sell image or style.  The MoCo has gotten by quite well over the past ten years following that philosophy, but unfortunately for them image without substance probably won't cut it over the next ten years.  Eventually they will have to add performance, quality, reliability, and competitive prices to the mix if they expect to prosper.

Jerry

[ccr]

Basic Marketing 101; if all you have is image or style, then sell image or style.  The MoCo has gotten by quite well over the past ten years following that philosophy, but unfortunately for them image without substance probably won't cut it over the next ten years.  Eventually they will have to add performance, quality, reliability, and competitive prices to the mix if they expect to prosper.

Jerry

Yep, you got it, and I guess a few of us, me included have bought it.  And willing to pay top dollar for it too. 

Leaving a restaurant yesterday after lunch, it is pretty cold out - about 34, and two girls sitting outside smoking call out to me how much they love Harley's, and mine is particularly nice looking.  Then they never took their eyes off of us as we started the bikes up, did a U turn and headed out of town. 

I know how they feel.

Every time a bike races past our windy country road we pay attention, but when it is the unmistakable rumble of a Harley going by, we watch it from one side to the other of our vision line.

I may wish for performance and reliability, but I'm still buying the image.

 

[1823 MC DC]

more of a culture or brotherhood than an image.
The last time I checked, Mercedes Benz has S500 and S600's in the service bays for mechanical and minor equipment failure. Those a 85-120k price tagged vehicles, they do the same thing that the 15k vehicles do, get you from point a to point b and back.

[JCZ]

Interesting read and perspective......thanks for posting.

I tried the BMW, twice, and it's a hell of a motorcycle.  But at 6'4" tall, I could not get past the feeling that my hips were locked in a very uncomfortable position.  I talked to a couple of the salesman about it and they admitted that they hear that complaint from time to time, from the taller riders.  So I found it ineresting in the post above, the guy is 6'3" and says that the bike (his BMW) is more comfortable than a Harley (that he claims didn't have room for him) than a BMW that has his legs bent all up under him.   I'll stay with Harley for now, thank you!

[RedDevil]

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here again.  I've tried the rest and came back, in my opinion, to the best.  I'm 6'4" tall and I've had both BMW and Honda touring rigs and I came back to HD.  I can't believe he said he had more room on the Beemer.  That's one of the reasons I got rid of it.  It's not the image for me as it is the feelings that a Harley gives when I ride it and the sound, or as some people call it, the soul of the bike.  When I had the Beemer and the Wing, I was just riding the motorcycle, when I ride my Ultra, I'm a part of the motorcycle, not just a rider.  To me, that's the difference.  And I have to admit, Harley has done a good job of "selling the brotherhood".  There are more HOG members than the Gold Wing Road Riders and the BMW Owners Group.  I remember when GWRR was excited a couple of years ago that they had reached 800,000 members worldwide.  I kind of chuckled at that as HOG had surpassed the one million mark a couple of years before that.   To me it's a life-style more than an image.  I bleed orange and black, I never bled Beemer blue and white, or whatever colors Honda is.  Are Hondas and Beemers technologically better motorcycles?  Sure they are, but that's not all riding a motorcycle is.    Just my opinion folks and no slights whatsoever to BMW and Honda.  They both make great motorcycles, but they, in my opinion lack a personality, a soul.
Cheers ,
 

[HogBreath]

Well Said RedDevil. I rode a Honda, and would always buy HD shirts. I've never bought a Honda shirt while riding the HD.

[kojak]

Here's my experience over 33 years of riding:
Yamaha to Honda to Suzuki back to Yamaha to Triumph to Yamaha to Harley to Harley! In between got to ride BMW's, Boss Hosses, Ducatti's that belonged to friends. Liked them all, love my 2 Harley's today. 

[grandpadoc]

...maybe we should change our logo, I made this for the local motorcycle cops. You can copy it and reverse it for a iron on.  Doc

[110tHunDer]

 
I dunno, I think this is one of those cases where the old phrase, "If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand," applies.  I rode Kawasakis for many years before going to Harley's in the fall of 2001.  At this point in time, I don't see me ever going back, no matter how many seats, horns, speakers, windshields, brake levers, etc., etc., etc., I have to buy to get the bike to my liking.  What can I say, I just love our (CVO) motorcycles.

[Texas Lurker]

I'm in 100% Agreement. Linny

[iski]

more of a culture or brotherhood than an image.
The last time I checked, Mercedes Benz has S500 and S600's in the service bays for mechanical and minor equipment failure. Those a 85-120k price tagged vehicles, they do the same thing that the 15k vehicles do, get you from point a to point b and back.

Very valid points - worked for a guy a few years ago who had more problems with a $120k Mercedes than I have EVER had with any of my Chryslers or Fords.  Not gonna go into that long gone Beemer from hell here due to time constraints & besides we bought another one anyway cuz we liked the style.



It all boils down to what we are looking for & want vs what we can afford & what we PERCEIVE our needs to be.  Cheaper faster bikes? - that's why I rode Kawas for years.  Rode Yamahas but never owned a shirt or stopped at Yammer dealers when traveling.  The MoCo does a great job when it comes to marketing & marketing is all about image. 

Beemer bikes cramp me - I'm 6' 3" so also question the above comment re:comfort.  Hondas so far do not appeal to me & I have been riding 37 years now without ever owning a Honda. 

Is 35k a lot to spend for a bike?  Maybe, maybe not.  Cost vs value vs satisfaction makes the price point too subjective to make a final determination.  HD charges that & more, so it must not be too high for lots of folks. Will HD continue on its merry way?  That in fact is also subjective.  They may or may not & overall product quality does play a big role in that determination.  Indian circa 1990's or so is a good example of doing oneself in.