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[Liferjoesquid]

I have a 2001 FLTRSEI2 with 42k miles.  I changed out all my fluids last week.  I used a KN-171C oil filter.  It’s the first time I’ve used KN oil filters.  I have always used HD filters in the past.  Oil pressure has always run at 32psi when riding at speed (2500-3000 rpms). After changing the fluids, I went for a ride.  I noticed oil pressure was nearly zero at startup.  Not a big deal, it always does that on first start after an oil change.  This time, I noticed pressure climbed quickly to 60 psi as I was was revving when switching gears.  It settled back to 32 psi but would quickly climb towards 60 psi if I got into it.  I figured it was the filter.  I picked up a new HD filter at the local HD shop.  On the way home I noticed oil pressure was now acting normal, sitting solidly at 32 psi like it has always done when I’m riding at speed.

I went ahead and changed the filter anyway.  I added a little oil (HD Synth 3) to make up for the small amount lost during the filter replacement.  I started it up and it did the whole “shoot for 60” thing again when I revved the engine.  No external oil leak.  I have not taken the bike out.  I don’t want to ruin my engine.

Has anyone seen this before?

Thanks
Eric

[Twolanerider]

Don't automatically assume it must be an engine oiling problem.  Oil pressure sending unit could misbehave this way as could the gauge itself.  Start by just pulling the wire one and off the sending unit a couple times to make sure the connection is clean.  If that makes no difference plumb in a mechanical gauge if you've got one.  If you don't the sending units are cheap enough to just replace it to see if that makes a difference.  Swapping in a mechanical gauge would be your gold-standard test though.  Then you know for sure exactly what the engine is doing without any extrapolation based on resistance from the sending unit and gauge.

[Liferjoesquid]

Your troubleshooting logic makes sense.  However, I'm one of those "glass isn't half empty, it's totally empty because I dropped it and it shattered".....RARELY do I have a problem develop with ANY of my vehicles and it turn out to be simple.  I tend to assume the worst.  But I'll borrow a pressure testing unit and find out what's really going on.  Perhaps, this one time, I'll get lucky!

Eric

[grc]

As Twolane mentioned, the best approach is to start with the simple things.  Harley has had issues with sending units over the years, so that is a logical place to start.  Btw, you can do a quick and easy test of the gauge itself.  Disconnect the connector from the sending unit and turn the ignition switch ON.  The gauge should read zero.  Now ground the Brown/Green wire in the harness connector and the gauge should read full scale (approx. 70 psi).

If you install a mechanical gauge and still see the same issues, one possible cause could be a sticking pressure relief valve in the cam plate.

Jerry

[Liferjoesquid]

Wish I had a better update. I spent the majority of the day trying to figure out how to get to the oil pressure sender without having to totally disassemble the exhaust to get to it. Only had to disassemble half the exhaust!   and finally got the sender off.  And, of course, the pressure test kit I borrowed from work is missing one key adapter so I never did get to test the oil pressure system.  Remember my comment on the “empty glass”?  Today was a perfect example of how God never intended me to use a wrench!

Hopefully I can get an adapter tomorrow and get the oil system tested.  I’m starting to think the oil pressure relief valve would have been soooooooooo much easier to get to.

Eric

[Twolanerider]

Wish I had a better update. I spent the majority of the day trying to figure out how to get to the oil pressure sender without having to totally disassemble the exhaust to get to it. Only had to disassemble half the exhaust!   and finally got the sender off.  And, of course, the pressure test kit I borrowed from work is missing one key adapter so I never did get to test the oil pressure system.  Remember my comment on the “empty glass”?  Today was a perfect example of how God never intended me to use a wrench!

Hopefully I can get an adapter tomorrow and get the oil system tested.  I’m starting to think the oil pressure relief valve would have been soooooooooo much easier to get to.

Eric

Relief valve is part of the cam plate.  That's behind the exhaust and the cam cover.  It's also one of those things that if you're in that far you might as well replace lifters, inner cam bearings and cam chain shoes; all "just because."  So you really are better off still hoping it's just the sending unit or the gauge. 

Most auto parts stores have cheap oil pressure gauge kits.  Brass fitting assortments are available at a lot of parts stores and any good hardware/home supply store.  So coming up with what you need will (hopefully) be something you can easily do no matter what you need.  Keep at and still keeping my finger crossed you find an easy fix.

[Liferjoesquid]

It's not the sender.  Pressure did same thing once I put a mechanical pressure gauge on the bike.  I pulled the cam cover and removed the outer chain bolts.  I did not notice the tensioner spring shoe has a lip so when I started easing the chain off, it took part of the shoe lip off.  So now, on top of everything else, I'll need a new shoe.  My big question is, how do I remove the tensioner?

[J.D.]

If the outer shoe is that worn the inner is likely worse.

The tensioners are unloaded and pinned with a special tool.  Sure you can do it with a pliers but you'll likely damage something.

Good chance you've sucked some of that shoe debris into the oil pump and subsequently pumped through the oil passages.

Good time to holistically address a number of things in there...

[Twolanerider]

If I'm understanding what you've written correctly that broken outer shoe had not come apart and cycled its many and varied bits through the engine but, instead, you send the shoe to a sad and untimely death by trying to maliciously and with felonious intent YANK the chain past it?  FWIW there's normally not a big lip there.  If you had a lip it was from the chain having worn in to the shoe.

Ok, here's what I'd do and a little background.  And, by the way, you've actually gotten lucky.

Those shoes are notorious for early wear.  Even more notorious from coming apart completing and totally ruining an engine.  You caught yours before any of this happened.  So you're actually ahead of the game and should be pleased you got to where you are. 

At this point make the whole mess better.

There is a Screamin Eagle kit that is both worthwhile and (surprisingly for HD) cost effective.  You'll get a new cam plate (yours is at least questionable with probably/possible cam show much in the relief valve), new (and better) oil pump, new (and improved [really] chain tensioners, quieter chains and get it all as a kit.  HD part # 25284-11.  See it at the link below:

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-hydraulic-tensioner---oil-pump-upgrade

Significantly cheaper here:  https://shop.newcastlehd.com/part/25284-11


You'll also want to replace the inner cam bearings at the same time.  The following link:

https://www.amazon.com/Torrington-B-148-Bearings-Harley-Davidson/dp/B07B5BTWSL


You could change cams now if you had a mind to (or not) but no matter what else you do you've actually hit a small jackpot by catching this now before those shoes came completely apart and trashed the engine.  You did good. 

You also don't need any special tools to assemble the cams to the cam plate with that new model plate.  You will need to get your old cams pressed out of the existing cam plate if you decide to use them again.  Only other specialty tool you'll need is the blind puller and the press to remove and reinstall the cam bearings.  If you don't have them and are disinclined to buy for a potentially one-off job say the word here.  I (and no doubt others of the brethren here) have something that can be borrowed.

[Twolanerider]

Just read back through the thread.  42k miles on original cam shoes?  Damn.....  That's not a record but it is a long time.  Many died terribly well before then.  You're doing ok .

[Liferjoesquid]

Twolanerider,
Thanks for all the info!  Yes, this being my first attempt at anything this involved with an engine, I made a rookie mistake and tried to force the chain off past the tensioner.  In my (rookie) defense, I watched a video on cam removal that was done on a newer Harley with the hydraulic tensioner.  I should have realized mine wouldn't be as simple because of the spring tensioner.

I am sold on the new cam plate, that would be a wonderful addition and I'm already this far into uncharted waters, might as well keep going.  I don't think I'll go as far as replacing the cams.  I'm going to have a hard time convincing my better half to let me spend $500 on this project as it is. 
You said earlier there is a special tool for removing the tensioner, do you know what that is?

[Liferjoesquid]

Twolanerider,
I forgot to add something.  I didn't suck any shoe parts through the engine.  It broke while I was trying to remove the chain.  No worries.

[grc]

Twolanerider,
I forgot to add something.  I didn't suck any shoe parts through the engine.  It broke while I was trying to remove the chain.  No worries.

While you most likely didn't suck any big parts through the engine, when those tensioner shoes wear they cast off lots of small particles.  That may be what is causing your pressure fluctuations, as that gunk gets into the pressure relief bore and valve.  I changed out my cam plate at about half the mileage you have because I was seeing abnormally low pressure compared to the previous normal.  The relief valve was in fact sticking.

Jerry

[Twolanerider]

Cam tensioner tool:

https://www.georges-garage.com/product/cam-tensioner-unloader/

Though, unless you've got a small arbor or hydraulic press handy you may not need that tool  You'll need to get the old cams out if you intend to re-use them.  If you don't have a press just take the cam plate to some local bike shop and ask them to remove the cams for you.  They'll deal with the tensioners in the process.  You won't need any special tensioner tool or press to reassemble the cams and tensioners in the new cam plate.

You do, however, definitely want to change the inner cam bearings while you're in that far.  Don't cut that corner.  For that you'll need at least a blind puller to get the bearings out of the engine.  Autozone likely has a puller set you can rent.  If spending another several bucks can be hidden from the wife I've seen some cam bearing puller/installer tool packages at Amazon for just over a hundred bucks.

[Liferjoesquid]

Sorry for the delayed response.  Life, work, and kids get in the way occasionally.  I didn’t remove the cam plate.  Instead I tried shooting some carb cleaner up the pressure relief valve to clean it out and see if that would temporarily take care of the problem.  After buttoning everything up, I cranked her over.  Pressure still doing the same thing.  I’ve pretty much convinced myself to do the cam plate kit replacement.  What would you recommend I do along with the cam plate kit?  Replace cams? Tappets? Inner cam bearings will be replaced.  Just trying to decide what else would be of value to do so I know what to budget for.  Thanks to all for the very sage advice that got me to this point.  I am serious when I say I cannot wait to hear the responses!!

Thanks
Eric

[Twolanerider]

While in there do that cam plate kit.  That will cover pump, plate and tensioners.  Inner cam bearings also for sure.  With that many miles on a first gen Twin Cam you're playing with fire not replacing them.  If you change cams at the same time you'll not have to deal with finding someone with a press to help remove the old cams from the old cam plate before reinstallation in the new cam plate.  You'll not need any special tools for installing cams in the new cam plate.

[Liferjoesquid]

Any recommendations on cams?  Currently running screaming eagle cams.

[J.D.]

If you are happy with the current SE cams, and none of the finished surfaces are damaged, reinstall them.

[2018_FLTRXSE]

If you are happy with the current SE cams, and none of the finished surfaces are damaged, reinstall them.

The FLTRSEi should have SE203's.. how much of an upgrade does it already have? (Paying attention for learning reasons)

[J.D.]

Do your homework on specialty tools.  I use George's but there are a number of shops making and selling them.  You definitely want to use the proper tools and techniques when removing and installing the bearings into both the cases and camplate, and also when removing and reinstalling the camshafts into the camplate.  You will also want to understand and follow the procedure to align the oil pump.  Google George's Garage Harley tools.

[Liferjoesquid]

The FLTRSEi should have SE203's.. how much of an upgrade does it already have? (Paying attention for learning reasons)

It’s the SE103 but with the stroker kit.  11.5:1 compression ratio.  It’s running SE258 cams.  I suspect I’ll simply reuse them.  The bike was my father-in-law’s. He was a VP for Harley from 2000 to 2010.  This was his first touring bike.  It was used as a test platform for 2004 and following SE Road Glides.  It’s nicely modified.  I watched him pull and ride a wheelie in 2nd gear on that bike.  Me?  Not even if Frosty the Snowman survived a discussion with Satan would I ever try that.  I’m not nearly as good a rider (and he’s 6’4” and I’m 5’6”....there’s some vertical challenge issues as well )

[Liferjoesquid]

Whoops...just saw my typing error....compression is 10.5:1

[2018_FLTRXSE]

Whoops...just saw my typing error....compression is 10.5:1

LOL... at 11.5:1 it must be one hell of a beast!

103 with 258 cams... hmmmm any head work? Sounds interesting.

[Liferjoesquid]

Yep.  He had the head work done at the same time as the stroker kit installation. It's still a beast, perhaps a smidget tired. I figure this would be a great opportunity to check out the rods, lifters, cams while replacing the cam plate.

[2018_FLTRXSE]

Yep.  He had the head work done at the same time as the stroker kit installation. It's still a beast, perhaps a smidget tired. I figure this would be a great opportunity to check out the rods, lifters, cams while replacing the cam plate.

If the bore is still within spec you might get away with a touch hone with torque plates and re ring it and put it back together.  New lifters at the very least. (In addition to the other cam chest mods) Valve job and possibly new valve guides on the heads if they are out of spec.

I'm opening the cam chest on mine today and hoping that I don't find anything wrong with mine... I really don't want to go there and open the can of worms any further. Just hoping to change some corroded chrome and put it back together without looking. (NOT!) 

Bad enough I bought the Supermeg... lets see what other kind of trouble I can get into.... 

Its all Twolanerider's fault... 

[Twolanerider]

Bad enough I bought the Supermeg... lets see what other kind of trouble I can get into.... 

Its all Twolanerider's fault... 

Think you'll like the Supermeg .

[longlast]

Little input,....before removing the cam bearings take note of their position,  you don't want to install the new ones to deep or to proud.
       
         Hope all goes well for you 

[J.D.]

Using the proper Harley OE (or equivalent) tool the bearing depth will be set properly.

[longlast]

Using the proper Harley OE (or equivalent) tool the bearing depth will be set properly.

True!

I should have said if you don't use a HD removal/ install cam bearing tool, be sure to etc. etc.
I myself when I upgraded the cam bearings I used a slide hammer bearing removal/ install kit taking note of bearing positioning prior to removing.
I couldn't justify the cost of the said "special tool" for the times it would be used when a slide hammer bearing kit works as well for a 3rd the cost. Keeping in mind some what a little more care must be taken on the bearing install.

[timo482]

i just read that you put it back together without replacing the shoes.... OMG.. the shoes don't have any lip, that shoe is near engine destruction time. if you want to be real cheap [i get that] you can obtain newer better shoes, and the tools to replace them - clean the cam plate and go another 20k , if you run it ANY length of time with a destroyed shoe like in your picture you will be purchasing and entire engine very shortly.. sorry.. also you need to be certain that the cam bearing upgrade has been done - if not do it - its cheap.

again i understand trying not to spend money - but that shoe in the picture is days away from no bike at all.

[2018_FLTRXSE]

Think you'll like the Supermeg .

FYI... even with the 16 plates.. it's too damn quiet... But since I have 40% loss in my right ear and 25% in my left that might be why.

I may opt for the open cap just to see if I like it better.

For the sake of service it's a huge improvement over the stock monster.

When I opened the cam chest everything looked kosher, even the shoes so I left it alone... For now... Since lifter blocks pushrod tubes rocker box covers and the rest of the chrome are in need of love too.

After I address the fuel leak from the return line that surfaced after I put it back together. I changed the o ring but the check valve is extremely loose... Like the balls inside have been shaking themselves to death.

Anyone happen to have the old screaming eagle catalog part number for the braided lines with the quick release fittings? 

As far as I can tell the aftermarket ones don't have that provision.

[Liferjoesquid]

If I'm understanding what you've written correctly that broken outer shoe had not come apart and cycled its many and varied bits through the engine but, instead, you send the shoe to a sad and untimely death by trying to maliciously and with felonious intent YANK the chain past it?  FWIW there's normally not a big lip there.  If you had a lip it was from the chain having worn in to the shoe.

Ok, here's what I'd do and a little background.  And, by the way, you've actually gotten lucky.

Those shoes are notorious for early wear.  Even more notorious from coming apart completing and totally ruining an engine.  You caught yours before any of this happened.  So you're actually ahead of the game and should be pleased you got to where you are. 

At this point make the whole mess better.

There is a Screamin Eagle kit that is both worthwhile and (surprisingly for HD) cost effective.  You'll get a new cam plate (yours is at least questionable with probably/possible cam show much in the relief valve), new (and better) oil pump, new (and improved [really] chain tensioners, quieter chains and get it all as a kit.  HD part # 25284-11.  See it at the link below:

https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/se-hydraulic-tensioner---oil-pump-upgrade

Significantly cheaper here:  https://shop.newcastlehd.com/part/25284-11


You'll also want to replace the inner cam bearings at the same time.  The following link:

https://www.amazon.com/Torrington-B-148-Bearings-Harley-Davidson/dp/B07B5BTWSL


You could change cams now if you had a mind to (or not) but no matter what else you do you've actually hit a small jackpot by catching this now before those shoes came completely apart and trashed the engine.  You did good. 

You also don't need any special tools to assemble the cams to the cam plate with that new model plate.  You will need to get your old cams pressed out of the existing cam plate if you decide to use them again.  Only other specialty tool you'll need is the blind puller and the press to remove and reinstall the cam bearings.  If you don't have them and are disinclined to buy for a potentially one-off job say the word here.  I (and no doubt others of the brethren here) have something that can be borrowed.

Twolane,  I've finally been given the green light to do this project.  I have the cam plate and bearings on order.  My father in law informed me he has adjustable rods in the bike so removing/installation should not be difficult.  I have not messed with adjustable rods before.  Any words of wisdom?  It is my intent to reuse the cams and rods if both are in good shape.  Should I replace lifters regardless?  If so, what would you recommend?  Are there any other parts or kits I should have on hand?  Once I have everything in place to do this project, may I rent your blind bearing puller tool?

[longlast]

This will help you to correctly adjust your pushrods and to know how  many turns you have  to turn the pushrods you have to get the right adjustment.

[Liferjoesquid]

Thanks longlast! Great video!!  It did raise a question for me.  Are you supposed to readjust the rods after the tappers fully bleed down to take up the additional slack

[Twolanerider]

Had missed the new traffic on this thread from September.  Sorry about that.  Congrats on getting more done.  The video on adjusting pushrods is one of those gifts that keep on giving.  No matter how someone might describe a chore like that actually seeing it is just better. 

As for the other question; lifters, cam bearings, tensioners.  Those are things you just about automatically if you're in that far and they're anything worse than almost new.  Just the nature of the beast if you want to feel more secure about it.  Good luck and have fun getting it all buttoned up .

[Liferjoesquid]

What would you recommend for lifters?

[Twolanerider]

What would you recommend for lifters?

I'm sure you'll receive many suggestions from various suppliers.  They'll range from the surprisingly expensive (for just four lifters) to the holy-f'ing-WillieG-that's-expensive cost ranges.  A very common and well regarded suggestion anymore is also on the lower end of the price spectrum (and how often does that happen).  I've used this also with good results.  My current choice is lifter part number B2313-SE from Johnson. 

Bikes of our era's don't eat lifter like many of the modern machines do.  Having said that why take a risk.  This "SE" variant of the 2313 lifter has some extra internal oiling that can't hurt.  They've gone in the last three motors I've worked on and there's a set out in the garage right now for a top end job I hope to finally get around to on my own old Road Glide over our Thanksgiving holiday.

[longlast]

Thanks longlast! Great video!!  It did raise a question for me.  Are you supposed to readjust the rods after the tappers fully bleed down to take up the additional slack

No!  Once the adjustment has been made and the tappet has bleed down that's the adjustment made.
Just be sure the adjustment is being made with the tappets on the bottom side of the cam. You'll know if you're not on the bottom of the cam when you did the adjustment because after giving plenty of bleed down time and you can't turn the pushrod with your fingers then it was not on the bottom/ lower side of the cam. Don't rush it each lifter will take it's own time to bleed down.

One other thing be sure that you have fully primed the lifters with oil (no air in lifters).
A sure way to know you've got the air out is by (it's messy) submerging the lifter in clean oil and using a oiling can put the tip of the spout firmly into the hole on the side of the lifter and bump oil into the lifter you'll see air bubbles coming out of the top.
Don't pump the oiling can out of oil while you're doing it or you'll have to start over because you've pumped air into the lifter.