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Author Topic: Any reports of 2020 sumping?  (Read 8560 times)

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Fullsac Performance

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2019, 09:07:02 PM »

Not to nit pick but that's not cavitation but certainly starving the scavenging intake is indeed what sounds like is happening on those sumping engines.  Hopefully they've got it sorted out and the new design is a direct retrofit into the older M8s.

So your saying, when the engine is sumping, the scavenge oil intake that is at the bottom of the crankcase, flooded in oil to the point that it is touching the bottom of the flywheels and dragging the motor down, is being starved of oil ????

SG
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2019, 08:35:20 AM »

Harley has supposedly properly sized this oil pump and revised it multiple times.  If so, then "something" is preventing the oil from being picked up by the pump.  Not sure anyone knows exactly why.

Cavitation is when the pressure inside the pump drops so low that the fluid momentarily vaporizes then returns to its liquid state, making noise like it's grinding up rocks and ultimately damaging the pump's internal parts.  I don't see that happening here.

Hopefully MoCo engineering understands what is going on and this latest design solves the problem.
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kojak

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2019, 03:26:11 PM »

I seldom post on CVOHARLEY these days due to the fixation with sumping these past 2 years. Im happy with my 2017 cvo linited with 22k miles on it that have been trouble free.
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GB506

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 03:58:58 PM »

I handed over my 19 to the dealer last week to have them look at sumping issues. Interestingly, I can (somewhat) consistently reproduce the problem. Read on if you're interested.

Attached is a map of a portion of La Crosse County, WI. Position #1 is at the top of a bluff at the mouth of County Road FO, which has some nice corners to carve, and which loses about 460 feet of elevation by the time you get to position #2, roughly 2 miles down the hill. After attacking the corners in a very spirited way, I slow down to highway speed at position #2 and and by position #3, roughly another 2 miles down the road, the bike exhibits power loss and high heat, which I assume is sumping. I stop at position #4, a golf course, to let the bike idle and it clears up in 5 minutes or so.

About 350 of the 460 feet of the elevation drop occurs in the first 3000 feet of road between #1 and #2.

I've had this happen 3 or 4 times, always in the same spot and in the same manner. But the bike has never exhibited this behavior anywhere else and at no other time during the 5k miles I put on this year.

So I explain this to the dealer and I'm waiting for them to let me know what they're going to do. I want them to give me the 2020 pump. We shall see.
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 06:09:28 PM »

Harley has supposedly properly sized this oil pump and revised it multiple times.  If so, then "something" is preventing the oil from being picked up by the pump.  Not sure anyone knows exactly why.

Cavitation is when the pressure inside the pump drops so low that the fluid momentarily vaporizes then returns to its liquid state, making noise like it's grinding up rocks and ultimately damaging the pump's internal parts.  I don't see that happening here.

Hopefully MoCo engineering understands what is going on and this latest design solves the problem.
ill try … the cavitation your describing is from a centrifugal pump, gear rotor pumps don't usually cause cavitation, HDs issue is airyated oil from the crank shaft passing thru the oil, that is not suppose to be there, that is better known as windage. think I got that right  :nixweiss:    and the pulses from the pistons moving up and down are pulling the oil from the inlet of their pump, not allowing the pump to remove oil from the sump area causing it to overfill, better known as sumping… let me know if Im wrong
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 06:21:27 PM by fastfreddy »
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Pan1

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2019, 10:59:32 PM »

Two thoughts on the “Sumping” issue.  Since some bikes have the issue and some do not , I wonder if a study has been done on piston ring sealing or leakage as a contributing factor.  Secondly, if the upward piston travel is causing  a vacuum in the sump, pulling oil away from the pickup then a simple crankcase vent would fix the problem. 
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2019, 04:14:53 PM »

Two thoughts on the “Sumping” issue.  Since some bikes have the issue and some do not , I wonder if a study has been done on piston ring sealing or leakage as a contributing factor.  Secondly, if the upward piston travel is causing  a vacuum in the sump, pulling oil away from the pickup then a simple crankcase vent would fix the problem.

A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.

The issue came about right after Harley redesigned the cases for the new M8 engines.  The Twin Cams only had this problem when the scavenge side of the oil pumps became damaged and could not keep up with the amount of oil being pumped into the engine.  The M8's have had the problem with no abnormal wear or damage to oil pumps.  There is obviously something that changed, and that something is the cases and the oiling system.  They've tried at least five redesigns of oil pumps, and unless they hired rookie engineers from the lowest rated school on the planet, I don't see the pump being the root cause.  Oil pumps have been around for a very long time, and the basics that determine their performance haven't changed.  There is no reason for the oil pump design to suddenly become no good.  I'm still betting on the changes to the cases being the real root cause, but everything is still guesswork because the folks at Harley won't share the real cause with anyone.  Nothing new, they've been trying to hide their mistakes from everyone for a very long time, and in many cases the best they've done is apply a short term band-aid and stuck the customers with the problems.  I see no reason to believe this situation is any different.

Jerry
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2019, 08:45:56 PM »


A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.


Pretty sure that was T-Man's video Jerry
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2019, 10:42:13 PM »

A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.


Pretty sure that was T-Man's video Jerry

I'm thinking you are right.  I've never heard anything about the theory or the proposed fix since I saw the original video, but I thought it was fairly convincing when I saw it some time ago.

Jerry
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johnmowcop

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2019, 12:24:07 PM »

A simple crankcase vent would be illegal, just like they have been since the 1960's and 70's for automobiles.  Another theory I've seen, including a video by an aftermarket company I can't seem to remember right now, is that the oil is "attaching" itself to the rapidly rotating flywheels, leading to the loss of power AND not allowing the oil to flow to the crankcase oil return.  They installed scrapers with a very small gap to the flywheels to strip the attached oil and allow it to drain down, claiming that fixed the problem.  Someone around here will probably remember this video and the name of the company.

The issue came about right after Harley redesigned the cases for the new M8 engines.  The Twin Cams only had this problem when the scavenge side of the oil pumps became damaged and could not keep up with the amount of oil being pumped into the engine.  The M8's have had the problem with no abnormal wear or damage to oil pumps.  There is obviously something that changed, and that something is the cases and the oiling system.  They've tried at least five redesigns of oil pumps, and unless they hired rookie engineers from the lowest rated school on the planet, I don't see the pump being the root cause.  Oil pumps have been around for a very long time, and the basics that determine their performance haven't changed.  There is no reason for the oil pump design to suddenly become no good.  I'm still betting on the changes to the cases being the real root cause, but everything is still guesswork because the folks at Harley won't share the real cause with anyone.  Nothing new, they've been trying to hide their mistakes from everyone for a very long time, and in many cases the best they've done is apply a short term band-aid and stuck the customers with the problems.  I see no reason to believe this situation is any different.

Jerry

I posted the below some time ago. I presume this can contribute to the premise raised by Jerry.

As a point of interest.

A precedent has already been made for sumping, about 65 years ago, it was called over oiling then. The bike was a Panther 120. See this link:  https://sump-publishing.co.uk/panther.htm

The "sump-publishing" is entirely coincidental but apt at this moment in time..

If you do not want to read the article this is an extract that refers to the issue and the resolution:

"One major problem of the Model 120 was over-oiling. Panther’s long established oil-scavenge system incorporates a primitive, but (until the Model 120) effective knife-edge weir in which the flywheels scoop oil from the engine cases into the integral oil tank (wedge shaped chamber forward of the timing chest). The clearance is only 60 thousandths of an inch."

Reading the many "sumping" posts one of the solutions presented is in effect a scrapper forming a weir, which coincidently has a clearance of 0.060" - same as the above solution. small world isn't it.

Seems like all the high falutin engineers at Harley need to relate to history to solve problems that have already been encountered by others. I bet the Panther solution was developed by a fella with a pencil and a bit of paper in a workshop, maybe discussing it with a colleague. How many "Engineers" have Harley had looking at the issue an still not resolved it.

JohnT
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johnmowcop

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2019, 03:17:21 PM »

This more detail from the above referenced article = it does sound familiar?

One major problem of the Model 120 was over-oiling. Panther’s long established oil-scavenge system incorporates a primitive, but (until the Model 120) effective knife-edge weir in which the flywheels scoop oil from the engine cases into the integral oil tank (wedge shaped chamber forward of the timing chest). The clearance is only 60 thousandths of an inch.
 

 
However, when the earlier Model 100’s engine stroke was increased from 100mm to 106m (to create the Model 120), the flywheels were trimmed to provide clearance for the longer stroke piston—which in turn reduced the scavenging  effect and led to over-oiling.
 
Some owners have extended the oil-weir to rectify this problem, so ask if it’s been done on the bike you’re interested in. Also, some Panthers have been fitted with a Volvo car piston (see Panther Owner’s Club for details) which has a better oil control ring. It’s an easy mod, but a specially machined gudgeon pin bush will be required to facilitate it. Keep in mind, too, that a Volvo piston will also give slightly higher compression with increased risk of pinking. So use the best fuel you can get.

JohnT
 
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2020, 09:11:37 PM »

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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2020, 05:55:57 PM »

We just pulled a zippers 124 kit down S&S billet pump and  plate followed HD method for checking either way 28 OZ of oil swapped pump to 2020 it dropped to 6.5 .

Its hit or miss as there are other items that cause it . Poor ring seal being a major issue .
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2020, 07:30:44 AM »

We just pulled a zippers 124 kit down S&S billet pump and  plate followed HD method for checking either way 28 OZ of oil swapped pump to 2020 it dropped to 6.5 .

Its hit or miss as there are other items that cause it . Poor ring seal being a major issue .

More good information, thank you.
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Re: Any reports of 2020 sumping?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2020, 11:56:16 PM »

We just pulled a zippers 124 kit down S&S billet pump and  plate followed HD method for checking either way 28 OZ of oil swapped pump to 2020 it dropped to 6.5 .

Its hit or miss as there are other items that cause it . Poor ring seal being a major issue .

So does the seal make a difference, seems to with the HD improved scavenge 2020 pump
S&S have also now gone with the seal on back of pump, unfortunately  have to buy a new pump to upgrade current S&S pump!
Cost effective to go with HD 2020 pump (not sure this works with S&S camplate?)
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