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[SDCVO]

I am a sick man and usually modify my bikes until they are a complete pain in the A..,,, the whole reason why I bought this 2012 SERG was because it of all the factory mods ( especially the 110) and that I could have it under warranty for 7 yrs (after esc). I put on a SERT and Fatcats and it dyno'd at 95 HP and 105 torque. I am now thinking about tearing into the motor. Am I nuts? Help....

[lilcoot]

We're all crazy, then.  Welcome to the crazy club!   

[Unbalanced]

Guess how crazy you are depends on what you are actually planning on doing.   If its just a cam / pipes and tune to wake it up a bit prolly not so crazy.   Headwork, cam, pipes, tune now you are a bit crazier.   Sending the crank out, high compression, pistons, heads, cam, pipes, tune, you may fit right in.

So how crazy you talking?

[SDCVO]

Already did the pipes and tune, not really sure where (or if) to go from here...

[SDCVO]

Just worried about risk/reward... Don't want to lose my warranty, lose dependability. Seems like I end up in a tow truck about once a month on my softail (EVO, Nitrous and everything else that goes with that degree of sickness)...

[Unbalanced]

Me personally in your situation would leave it at cams, pipes, tune you already have a play bike.   If you can't, you might consider going to 117 or 120 and quit fooling with the 110.   Seems that beyond 10 to 1 and the reliability seems to drop off quite a bit.   Risk / Reward. 

[SDCVO]

The 110 comes with 255 cams. What do you think the "pick up" would be by changing the cams?

[Unbalanced]

typically ... lets go with a known comodity.

The 255 torque dies at 4000 rpm.  making approximately 86-92 hp and 105-112 tq out of the box with pipes, tune, and stock a/c ventilator

Some choices today are for bolt in cams in the 110's.


With the yuill yb14 cams the bikes were making 105 hp and a 115 tq   issue is torque curve moved right about 500 rpms but runs out

Suggestions would be that the CR 575 cam .. people are making 102 hp and 120 tq   torque curve moved right about 300 rpms also can be found on site.

Andrews 54  find on site talk to Fullsac he has some stuff posted on it for numbers

New andrews 57 cams torque comes in right away and lasts longer than the stock cams   new item no real history yet only few out there.

Woods 777 imo a bit noisey but extends the torque curve of the stock cam and more hp

Woods 7 .. seems to be replaced by the 777    on par with the 54's for the most part give or take a little bit.

Take a look at these if roughly 102-105 hp and 113-120 torque will satisfy you then you maybe able to get away with tune, pipes and cam.

[SDCVO]

Great info, thanks!

[Heatwave]

I am a sick man and usually modify my bikes until they are a complete pain in the A..,,, the whole reason why I bought this 2012 SERG was because it of all the factory mods ( especially the 110) and that I could have it under warranty for 7 yrs (after esc). I put on a SERT and Fatcats and it dyno'd at 95 HP and 105 torque. I am now thinking about tearing into the motor. Am I nuts? Help....

You're definitely not nuts. Many have gone before you and have taken the same path. I have a 2010 SEUC. Started with Fullsac baffles and a Ventilator A/C. Wasn't satisfied.

I decided to break into the motor and upgrade with Hillside Headwork, 58mm TB, SE 5.3 injectors, roller rockers, Woods 408-6 cams, D&D Fatcat and dyno tuning. I couldn't be more pleased with the end result. I could never go back to my stock 110 (out of the crate it was dynoed at 77/100) or even the 110 with improved baffles and intake. The way the bike runs now is as it should have been. If you're looking for "more", this is a upgrade combination worth considering as it produced 123/123 SAE for me. Another guy has almost the same combination and generated 121/119 SAE.

[mjb765]

You're definitely not nuts. Many have gone before you and have taken the same path. I have a 2010 SEUC. Started with Fullsac baffles and a Ventilator A/C. Wasn't satisfied.

I decided to break into the motor and upgrade with Hillside Headwork, 58mm TB, SE 5.3 injectors, roller rockers, Woods 408-6 cams, D&D Fatcat and dyno tuning. I couldn't be more pleased with the end result. I could never go back to my stock 110 (out of the crate it was dynoed at 77/100) or even the 110 with improved baffles and intake. The way the bike runs now is as it should have been. If you're looking for "more", this is a upgrade combination worth considering as it produced 123/123 SAE for me. Another guy has almost the same combination and generated 121/119 SAE.

If you don't mine me asking, what did a setup like that cost you--minus the exhaust???  And did you think about having the crank welded?

[Heatwave]

If you don't mine me asking, what did a setup like that cost you--minus the exhaust???  And did you think about having the crank welded?

I didn't crack the bottom end, so no work on the crank. Also stayed with the stock pistons at Scott's (Hillside) recommendation. I bought components during the winter at 20-25% off and got a discount on the labor since it was during the slow season.. Here's a VERY rough estimate as I'm going from ROUGH memory:

$350 Roller rockers
$350 SE 58mm Throttle Body
$100 5.3 SE injectors
$400-450 Woods Cams
$200-250 HD Woods Valve Springs
$150 Adj pushrods
$2000-2400 for the headwork, the labor for breaking the engine down & installing the parts above and miscellaneous "stuff" like gaskets, oil etc. My shop included the original dyno tuning in the labor of the build.

If you need a tuning software, add another $300-500. If you need a A/C upgrade, add another $200-250. While you've got the heads off, its worth reinstalling with chrome hardware IMO which will add a few more bucks.

So depending on your starting point, you're looking at $3500 - 4500. My starting point was 77/100 and finished at 123/123 SAE with a very smooth tune that is ready to rock & roll whenever I ask it to. From my perspective the cost was well worth the investment and the performance gained. I now have almost 20,000 miles on the build and have had no issues at all. The biggest challenge is finding a well-qualified tuner that can handle the build and maximize the performance.

[mjb765]

I didn't crack the bottom end, so no work on the crank. Also stayed with the stock pistons at Scott's (Hillside) recommendation. I bought components during the winter at 20-25% off and got a discount on the labor since it was during the slow season.. Here's a VERY rough estimate as I'm going from ROUGH memory:

$350 Roller rockers
$350 SE 58mm Throttle Body
$100 5.3 SE injectors
$400-450 Woods Cams
$200-250 HD Woods Valve Springs
$150 Adj pushrods
$2000-2400 for the headwork, the labor for breaking the engine down & installing the parts above and miscellaneous "stuff" like gaskets, oil etc. My shop included the original dyno tuning in the labor of the build.

If you need a tuning software, add another $300-500. If you need a A/C upgrade, add another $200-250. While you've got the heads off, its worth reinstalling with chrome hardware IMO which will add a few more bucks.

So depending on your starting point, you're looking at $3500 - 4500. My starting point was 77/100 and finished at 123/123 SAE with a very smooth tune that is ready to rock & roll whenever I ask it to. From my perspective the cost was well worth the investment and the performance gained. I now have almost 20,000 miles on the build and have had no issues at all. The biggest challenge is finding a well-qualified tuner that can handle the build and maximize the performance.

Thanks for the info.....I already have the tuner, air cleaner and adj pushrods so there's a few things I don't need......still a sizeable investment. I guess right now I will be happy with my already done cam upgrade.

[billt1]

2012 CVO Road Glide .Fullsac Stage II . 1080 miles on bike. So happy  108.6 HP 120.8 Torque
Dyno sheet attached

[Puzzled]

2012 CVO Road Glide .Fullsac Stage II . 1080 miles on bike. So happy  108.6 HP 120.8 Torque
Dyno sheet attached

What cam did you use? Head gasket change? Core size?

[billt1]

Andrews 54 cam set ,  Cometic .030 head gaskets,2.0” CVO Muffler Cores,TTS Master tune ,Fullsac X-Pipe

[Puzzled]

Thank you. 

[kojak]

The big question is how do you ride? If you mostly ride in the 2500-3500 rpm range like majority of riders out there, dont bother with mods beyond what you've already done. If you dont shift a lot and like passing vehicles in a tall gear at normal highway speeds, then the se 255 is a good cam for you. Personally, I like cams that kick in early and generate consistent torque through 4000 rpm because that matches how I ride,
On the other hand, if you like winding your motor up to high rpms frequently and shift to maintain a higher rpm range and arent concerned about low end torque, then go for it. Dyno charts are good for making sure your bike was tuned right, dont mean a hill of beans after that imo.

[SDCVO]

So I started this thread 5 months ago. Since then all I did was a set of Fatcats and a SERT with a amazing tune (Dyno attached). As Kojak says, I love having the power kick in at 2200 RPM and 90% of the time I do ride in the 2500-4000 range but once in a while I wish I did have another 20 HP or so to really run it out. What I don't want to do is lose that power coming on so early so every time I talk to someone about changing out the cams and maybe going with that thinner gasket for a small compression bump, I get talked out of it. The bike is making 120 TQ so really the only gain I can get without going crazy is HP.
A couple of weeks ago I spoke to a guy that said that if I did a small amount of headwork, changed the gasket and then changed the cams to either the Kury or the Andrews I would still get my 100+TQ at 2200RPM but would probably get around 125 HP and keep my TQ over 120 but it would no longer die at 4200RPM like it does now (though I would say more around 4500).
Would someone with knowledge (God knows that is not me..) comment on that? Is it worth the dollar-HP gain? I do have the 7 yr extended warranty and I would obviously be voiding the motor part of that (might have already done that though with the SERT) which might be another factor to consider.
Another problem even if I do decide to go forward is that I don't k now of any good motor mechanics in San Diego. Does anyone? In CA, the dealer can not do any motor mods. The guy that did my tune is amazing but only does tunes.

[Midnight Rider]

So I started this thread 5 months ago. Since then all I did was a set of Fatcats and a SERT with a amazing tune (Dyno attached). As Kojak says, I love having the power kick in at 2200 RPM and 90% of the time I do ride in the 2500-4000 range but once in a while I wish I did have another 20 HP or so to really run it out. What I don't want to do is lose that power coming on so early so every time I talk to someone about changing out the cams and maybe going with that thinner gasket for a small compression bump, I get talked out of it. The bike is making 120 TQ so really the only gain I can get without going crazy is HP.
A couple of weeks ago I spoke to a guy that said that if I did a small amount of headwork, changed the gasket and then changed the cams to either the Kury or the Andrews I would still get my 100+TQ at 2200RPM but would probably get around 125 HP and keep my TQ over 120 but it would no longer die at 4200RPM like it does now (though I would say more around 4500).
Would someone with knowledge (God knows that is not me..) comment on that? Is it worth the dollar-HP gain? I do have the 7 yr extended warranty and I would obviously be voiding the motor part of that (might have already done that though with the SERT) which might be another factor to consider.
Another problem even if I do decide to go forward is that I don't k now of any good motor mechanics in San Diego. Does anyone? In CA, the dealer can not do any motor mods. The guy that did my tune is amazing but only does tunes.

I know it's not exactly in the neighborhood for you, but if I lived anywhere near California, there's only one person that would work on my bike...Jim at Metal Dragon.  He's a member here and has done work for several members.  He's in Northern CA though, but it might be worth the trip up there.  If I was wanting motor work done, I'd be tempted to ship my bike to him and do a fly and ride back to Alabama.

[Cvostu]

Terry,, I like that idea.  If I had the time , I was thinking about shipping my bike to Rich (tif2) and letting him put the same stereo equipment on my bike that he has.  I like that idea too.  

[SDCVO]

Going to take your guys advice and check out Metal Dragon. Do you guys think I can get 130/130 from him without breaking the bank or losing reliability?

[Midnight Rider]

Going to take your guys advice and check out Metal Dragon. Do you guys think I can get 130/130 from him without breaking the bank or losing reliability?

I don't know what "breaking the bank" may mean to you, so can't answer that question.  Getting up to those kind of numbers...I personally would split the cases and do it all.  I do know this:  If Jim at Metal Dragon does the work, it'll be done right, and at a fair price because that's the kind of person he is.  If you do everything he advises to achieve your goals, you'll have a good running motor that will be tuned correctly.

Another viable option would be to purchase a 120R motor from Jim, have him do his thing to that motor before you even take the bike up there, then swap engines and either sell your 110 or keep it on a shelf to swap back if you ever sell the bike.

Either of those options would break my bank, but I'm old, retired, and on a fixed income.   

[Heatwave]

I don't know what "breaking the bank" may mean to you, so can't answer that question.  Getting up to those kind of numbers...I personally would split the cases and do it all.  I do know this:  If Jim at Metal Dragon does the work, it'll be done right, and at a fair price because that's the kind of person he is.  If you do everything he advises to achieve your goals, you'll have a good running motor that will be tuned correctly.

Another viable option would be to purchase a 120R motor from Jim, have him do his thing to that motor before you even take the bike up there, then swap engines and either sell your 110 or keep it on a shelf to swap back if you ever sell the bike.

Either of those options would break my bank, but I'm old, retired, and on a fixed income.   

You can meet your performance goals (and more) with the 120R but be prepared it will be a different color engine then your CVO 110 or the CVO tranny since I don't believe it's available in the 110 powder gray on the CVO bikes. Page 46 of the Screaming Eagle Pro Catalog http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Media/downloads/Racing/US_SE13_Full.pdf  It's also worth noting that you can't even buy a 110 CVO engine from Harley through their Racing catalog.

[Unbalanced]

Going to take your guys advice and check out Metal Dragon. Do you guys think I can get 130/130 from him without breaking the bank or losing reliability?

SDCVO,

Out of what size motor?

I doubt you can get a 110 that far without being unreliable it isnt a walk in the park as it was said to be and if you go through the dynos on this site I dont think you will find any 110s that are 130/130 even using a happy dyno.   The 117 is  different story many builds out there at 130/130 and run great, or you can plunge in with a 120r and buy a black transmission if your motor/tranny is the slate colored and do it easily.   

[SDCVO]

It is a 110. What do you think is realistic?

[Unbalanced]

Realistic is 125 Tq and 120 hp out of a 110, but to not be disappointed i would shoot for 120/120 and anything over that is gravy.   Most wouldnt even feel the difference of 125 vs 120, but the key is getting the numbers where you ride not out in the ozone of the rpm band.  

Here is why i like the 120r, it has power everywhere and at stock compression of 10.5 to 1, will it last sure hope so 12k and counting without a lick of problems.   Note nothing is done to this 120r other than throttlebody/injectors and 2-1 exhaust and tune.

[sadunbar]

The best results I obtained with what I would consider to be a reliable 110 build was 120/122. 

My 120r, stock except for T Man 662-1 cams/S&S lifters and with a HPI 55mm throttle body is 135/135....

[Heatwave]

My 2010 CVO Ultra 110 with headwork, 58mmTB, 5.3gms/sec injectors, roller rockers, D&D Fatcat and Woods 408-6 cam is dynoed at 129/129 actual, 123/123SAE. I couldn't be more pleased with the performance and reliability and I have almost 25,000 miles on the build (30,000 on the bike). Just got back from a 2600 mile 2UP ride and the bike was flawless.

[SDCVO]

The biggest problem I am having is that I am currently getting over 120TQ (see attached dyno) with only a SERT and a set of Fatcats and over 100TQ at 2200 RPM's. I hate to spend a ton of money for only HP and possibly lose some "low end" grunt.. Thoughts?

[Heatwave]

The biggest problem I am having is that I am currently getting over 120TQ (see attached dyno) with only a SERT and a set of Fatcats and over 100TQ at 2200 RPM's. I hate to spend a ton of money for only HP and possibly lose some "low end" grunt.. Thoughts?

Right now you have a very nice performance curve. You don't necessarily have to lose anything on the bottom end with the right cam selection. Right now your bike dies pretty quick over 4000rpms. To be honest, if you don't run the gears out (5500-6000) you're not likely to notice a big difference over your current performance after any additional upgrades targeting HP.

OTOH, if you like to run the gears out to higher rpms, then you'll notice a significant difference over the 95hp you current build has. It all comes down to riding style and $. Since your dyno is STD, if it were run in SAE mode, then your performance would be more like 93/117 if you're looking to compare your current performance with other SAE dynos.

[SBB]

My 2010 CVO Ultra 110 with headwork, 58mmTB, 5.3gms/sec injectors, roller rockers, D&D Fatcat and Woods 408-6 cam is dynoed at 129/129 actual, 123/123SAE. I couldn't be more pleased with the performance and reliability and I have almost 25,000 miles on the build (30,000 on the bike). Just got back from a 2600 mile 2UP ride and the bike was flawless.

Got to love a good running SEUC!
Congrats Heatwave!

                        

SBB

[SDCVO]

Thanks Heatwave, that makes sense... on a regular basis I don't run much past 4000 (couldn't really now even if I wanted too) but would love to be able to "get my kicks" once in a while if I had the ability too. It reassures me that after the new build (whatever that ends up being) that I wont really lose the "low end". It does make me want to proceed. Thanks!

[Heatwave]

Thanks Heatwave, that makes sense... on a regular basis I don't run much past 4000 (couldn't really now even if I wanted too) but would love to be able to "get my kicks" once in a while if I had the ability too. It reassures me that after the new build (whatever that ends up being) that I wont really lose the "low end". It does make me want to proceed. Thanks!

Its worth noting that I tend to ride hard (not when I'm 2Up). Probably harder than most other riders. I love running right up to my 6250 redline and feeling endless pull through the rpms. I also enjoy having a strong motor that runs smoothly at 2000 rpms and can accelerate hard from 2500, so I understand why you don't want to lose the low end you currently enjoy. But you need to know that getting high hp out of those upper rpms isn't cheap. It comes down to increasing both air and fuel while balancing the tune to maximize the performance in these upper rpms while not losing the bottom end. To achieve that balance you're going to need headwork, more air flow through a larger throttlebody and more fuel through larger injectors. I actually could use larger injectors than my 5.3's since I've tapped out my VEs and the engine could still use more with the timing I run.

Getting a higher lift cam (.650") isn't for the guy that worries about topend noise. Most hi-lift cams are going to require higher performance springs and are going to be noisier than stock springs with a low lift cam. I think my Woods 408-6 are excellent for maximizing both low end and top end but they are not a quiet cam. You can be assured that when you rip the throttle with this hi-lift cam and a Fatcat, you need to be prepared that every car and biker within a quarter mile will know it.

The upside is endless pull to redline and squeezing the last bit of power out of your 110. Be prepared to find out that the motor is much more exciting in the upper rpms than you're accustom to. I don't think a 110 can deliver much more power than mine is generating without forced induction. Good luck with whatever path you choose.