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[blacktop]

Looks as though VHC is new for this year. as well as a rain mode.

[CVODON]

Not sure how Hold Control will work on the Bikes but wifes new car has it and it is GREAT. Stop at a light or stop sign, take your foot off the brake and then just apply throttle to drive away when your ready. I like it.

[grc]

When you release the brake, do the stop lights go out?  To me that would be a deal breaker.  I make sure my brake lights are on the whole time I'm sitting still in a vulnerable situation.  In fact when someone is coming up behind me at a stop light, I flash my brake lights just to make sure they see me.  Being clobbered from behind while sitting at a stop once in my past, I'm not crazy about having it happen again.  I'm getting too old, and it takes a lot longer to recover from injuries.

Jerry

[skratch]

i agree with you.  it's only been about 5 months since i got rear ended, and i'm still paranoid about people coming up behind me.  hell, at this point, i'm paranoid about people coming at me from all directions    i swear it looks like they aren't going to stop at the intersection and i'm ready to pull some type of evasive maneuver.  then they stop and my adrenaline settles down.

as far as the vhc goes, nothing says you have to take your hand/foot off the brake.  if it's anything like the one in my truck, it won't hold forever, just for a second or two until you get started.  so for the bike, it seems like it'll be good long enough until you can start rolling on the throttle and releasing the clutch, just keeping you from rolling backwards a little.

[Finster101]

Ah yes, another piece of technology so people don't really have to learn how to ride.

[Fired00d]

Ah yes, another piece of technology so people don't really have to learn how to ride.

Kinda what I was thinking... when I first learned how to drive/ride a manual shift vehicle I was taught to figure out/find the clutch friction point.... slowly let out the clutch as you hold the brake until it reaches the friction point then accelerate. Easy peasy… if a person can't do that then IMO manual transmission vehicles may not be for them.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[CVODON]

Well before we ever used this feature I had the wife stand behind the car. I drove down the drive, stopped and took my foot off the brake. Brake lights did not go out until I applied throttle. Verified twice. Pretty slick, they definitely stay on until you give it throttle or touch the brake pedal again.
It also has Launch Control (Kind of like a Drag Car Trans Brake) You enable Launch control with button, when indicator lights on dash you put foot on brake which arms it and lay throttle on floor. Goes to pre-determined RPM and holds it until you release the brake. Not sure I'll ever use it, but it works pretty smooth. Car does not hold against brakes like when you did a burn-out in your dads 68 Caprice, The car just revs like neutral, same as a trans brake in a Drag Car. Apparently holding the brake pedal is a safety feature in case the electronic unit were to fail.

[Ironhorse]

Ah yes, another piece of technology so people don't really have to learn how to ride.

Reminds me of a group ride I went on years ago. They purposely avoided hills because some folks didn’t like them. I just shook my head.

[spook120]

Have those features on my BMW GSA. Rarely use the hill control.  Only took HD how many years to implement what's standard on most other brands?  Better late than never I guess.

[Twolanerider]

When you release the brake, do the stop lights go out?  To me that would be a deal breaker.  I make sure my brake lights are on the whole time I'm sitting still in a vulnerable situation.  In fact when someone is coming up behind me at a stop light, I flash my brake lights just to make sure they see me.  Being clobbered from behind while sitting at a stop once in my past, I'm not crazy about having it happen again.  I'm getting too old, and it takes a lot longer to recover from injuries.

Jerry

Ditto.  Whenever possible I also stop far enough behind the car in front of me that I can dash forward between vehicles if necessary if I see someone coming that I don't think will get stopped.

[Twolanerider]

Kinda what I was thinking... when I first learned how to drive/ride a manual shift vehicle I was taught to figure out/find the clutch friction point.... slowly let out the clutch as you hold the brake until it reaches the friction point then accelerate. Easy peasy… if a person can't do that then IMO manual transmission vehicles may not be for them.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

That's asking a lot Gary.  I'm around kids all day long that don't know what a busy signal is and will never drive a stick  !

[Fired00d]

That's asking a lot Gary.  I'm around kids all day long that don't know what a busy signal is and will never drive a stick  !

And they don't know how to write in cursive.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[rayson56]

Ever get one to count your change back properly? I like messing with em and throw a dollar or a few pennies their way to get an even amount of change back. Most just stand there for a minute with their bare faces hanging out totally confused. lol

[ACfixer]

Ah yes, another piece of technology so people don't really have to learn how to ride.

Yeah I was kind of scratching my head on this one too. Maybe I stumbled on to some secret technique, so I'll share it... Apply braking pressure until the clutch starts to engage. 

[BostonboyDH]

And they don't know how to write in cursive.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

   Ok you got me on that one Dood...    LOL  Lucky I got Google   

[blacktop]

Explained more fully here: https://motorbikewriter.com/harley-davidson-traction-control-2/

Vehicle Hold Control (VHC)

Vehicle Hold Control (VHC) applies and holds brake pressure when activated and prevents the motorcycle from rolling after the rider has released the brake controls. The primary function of VHC is to prevent the motorcycle from rolling when it is stopped – for example at a stop sign on a hill, in stop-and-go traffic on a slope, or on a steep decline out of a parking structure. VHC is designed to make it easier to ride away with confidence by minimizing the number of controls needed to pull away smoothly. The system applies brake pressure until the rider actuates the throttle and clutch to pull away. VHC may also be engaged when the motorcycle is stopped on a flat surface if the rider wants to maintain position without applying pressure to a brake control.

The rider activates VHC by momentarily applying extra pressure to either the front brake hand lever or the rear-brake foot control after the motorcycle has come to a complete stop. If rider brakes very hard to a stop, and holds the brake pressure after stopping, VHC may also set without any added squeeze. A VHC indicator light will illuminate to confirm that the rider has activated VHC, and the ABS system will hold brake pressure after the rider releases the brake control. VHC is disengaged automatically as the rider begins to pull away from a stop, or if the rider applies and releases either brake control.

VHC is not to be used as a parking brake, so it will also disengage if the rider lowers the side stand (on models with a side-stand sensor, not a feature in all markets) or shifts into neutral on models without a side-stand sensor, or if the engine is turned off. In most situations after five minutes the indicator light will flash and the VHC will release if there is no rider action.

[SHRADER]

Just another piece of unneeded fluff and expense to break and make you bring it to a dealer to fix.

Don't need it, don't want it, no thank you

[Twolanerider]

I'm actually surprised that stuff like this haven't become Federally mandated basic hardware.  Not because it's necessary but just because they can; and that's what bean counters do.  Harley's benefit from this will be the pitch to very new riders; it will make it "easier" for them to feel comfortable at stops.  Since it's not a mandatory usage thing it's hard to get worked up about.  Is still just another point of potential failure and added expense though.  Hey, I can remember when speedometers and front brakes seemed extravagant.....

[Smoketown]

My 57 Studebaker had it too ... They called it a 'hill holder'.

What's old is new again ... 

Cheers,
Smoketown

[Jswerve]

How about a "don't turn in front of me" hold control?

[screem]

Yeah I was kind of scratching my head on this one too. Maybe I stumbled on to some secret technique, so I'll share it... Apply breaking pressure until the clutch starts to engage. 

Not sure how i have been able to ride my suicide foot clutch bike all these years, without the aid of sensors and ride controls, but like ACfixer, i muddle on 

[grc]

In the age of cheap electronics, all vehicle manufacturers are in love with the idea of adding gimmicks, not because they are truly needed, but because they can.  For instance, once they went to the cheaper keyless lock and ignition systems, they found they could add cheap sensors to let people wave their foot under the rear bumper to open a liftgate or deck lid.  I guess it might come in handy if you work for the mob and are struggling to carry a dead body wrapped up in a rug and need to dump it in the trunk, but for most situations it is overkill.

As for the hill holding stuff, or vehicle hold control, you have to remember we now have more than one generation of drivers that never learned to use a clutch and manual transmission, or even how to use a parking brake or left foot on the brake when driving an automatic trans vehicle.  These are the same generations that tend to drive distracted more than most, which has led to all the driver assist tech like automatic braking, lane keeping,etc.  And now there is even a push for auto makers to be forced to add a system to remind parents to check for kids before locking and walking away from their cars.  A parent with short term memory issues and lots of distractions could just tape a reminder on the inside of the windshield and driver door glass, but these days we always insist a third party be responsible for doing what we are too dumb or lazy to do ourselves.  This will be one more thing where negligent people will be able to shift blame to someone else AND sue for damages.  The nanny state is only going to get more intrusive, so get used to it.

JMHO - Jerry

[ultrarider123]

I'm actually surprised that stuff like this haven't become Federally mandated basic hardware.  Not because it's necessary but just because they can; and that's what bean counters do.  Harley's benefit from this will be the pitch to very new riders; it will make it "easier" for them to feel comfortable at stops.  Since it's not a mandatory usage thing it's hard to get worked up about.  Is still just another point of potential failure and added expense though.  Hey, I can remember when speedometers and front brakes seemed extravagant.....

Hey Don, I bet you remember when lap belts were an option, too....ah, those were the days when you could drive just as safe/unsafe as you wished and kids rode in the rear window of the AMC Ambassador (like I did)...

As I stated on another thread concerning the RDRS, I'm good with all the additions as long as I can turn any/all of it off if I don't want to use it.

[Twolanerider]

Hey Don, I bet you remember when lap belts were an option, too....ah, those were the days when you could drive just as safe/unsafe as you wished and kids rode in the rear window of the AMC Ambassador (like I did)...

As I stated on another thread concerning the RDRS, I'm good with all the additions as long as I can turn any/all of it off if I don't want to use it.

My most "challenged" was the kicker with a crap wasted clutch  .

[GregKhougaz]

Jerry raises a good point and I don't know the answer to the question. A rear-end accident is the one thing we have absolutely no control over. That is why all of my bikes have had one of these installed:

MOTORCYCLE BRAKE LIGHT FLASHERS

[porthole]

Jerry raises a good point and I don't know the answer to the question. A rear-end accident is the one thing we have absolutely no control over. That is why all of my bikes have had one of these installed:

MOTORCYCLE BRAKE LIGHT FLASHERS

I don't have that version, but I have been told mine is pretty annoying, especially at night by other riders, and attention getting during the day.

3 sets of 5 flashes as a strobe with about .5-1 second between them, then a solid for a few seconds, repeat.

[porthole]

I don't know how useful the hill hold is going to work on the bike. If reading it correctly, when pulling the clutch in or applying the brake the system releases.

On my truck the hold is activated on greater then 5 degree hills and is automatic when coming to a stop. If you release the foot brake it will hold for 3-4 seconds.
If you apply throttle it will still hold for just a bit until you start to moving against the brakes.

Not that noticeable with the truck empty, but really works great with 23,000 pounds of 5th wheel behind you.

I would think for a bike to be most effective it would need to hold while clutch is in, brake is applied then released and then as you apply throttle it releases to move.

[Ironhorse]

On my 1982 Subaru the hill holder was attached to the clutch cable. I had it disconnected. I never used it.

I know I sound like a broken record, but all these things do is mask a persons inability to ride a motorcycle or drive a car. Not a wise thing to do. Learn to do it the correct way. Practice till you are comfortable.

[chaos901]

Shoot, I got "hill control" now when stopping on a step incline.  Just put my left foot on the ground and my right foot on the rear brake.  Works every time.

[iski]

Not needed in Florida since we don't have any hills.

[grc]

I had hill-holder technology in the third hand 1966 VW bug I drove in college.  Shift down to first while rolling up to the stop, apply the clutch and the foot brake, and pull the handbrake.  When it was time to drive off, a simple coordinated move of the right foot from the brake pedal to the throttle and then gradual release of the clutch and handbrake was nearly seamless, and didn't cost a dime extra. 

Jerry

[Billy]

Shoot, I got "hill control" now when stopping on a step incline.  Just put my left foot on the ground and my right foot on the rear brake.  Works every time.

  I agree never had a need for anything other than my right foot on the brake at all times when stopped. Just something all should know and practice. Easy fix. Billy

[Ironhorse]

About the only proper application I can think of is when dealing with someone like my cousin Alan who lost his right leg in a motorcycle accident.

[FLSTFI Dave]

Ah yes, another piece of technology so people don't really have to learn how to ride.

Yea, it came on my manual 14 Stingray, first thing I did was a delete for it.  It also came on my 18 Grand Sport, but its more refined and I do not notice it, drive like I always did before.  The 14 it was highly intrusive

[scottt]

There are many upgrades that add complexity to modern motorcycles, most are technically not necessary. Start with electric start, ABS brakes, tire pressure monitoring, cruise control, stereos, on and on. We tend to bitch about new features we don't have to make ourselves feel better.

Been riding my whole life and did just fine without "hill hold". That said, it's a nice feature. On newer BMW bikes it's an option. If ordered it works by pulling in the front brake lever firmly to set. The second you release the clutch and start moving forward it releases. You can also release by giving the front brake lever an extra pull. You can use it or not. Simple and effective.

Those that prefer a bike with fewer features can buy a older used bike. If Harley is to survive in todays competitive market it must offer bikes with popular features. Harley cannot survive with it's traditional customer base alone, they are aging out of there prime buying years to put it nicely.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

[Glenncarp]

Reminds me of a group ride I went on years ago. They purposely avoided hills because some folks didn’t like them. I just shook my head.

And that would have been the last group ride I joined them on, nice guys/girls or not! lol

[chaos901]

Remember when motorcycles were "simple" machines...…...like back in 2000.

[grc]

There are many upgrades that add complexity to modern motorcycles, most are technically not necessary. Start with electric start, ABS brakes, tire pressure monitoring, cruise control, stereos, on and on. We tend to bitch about new features we don't have to make ourselves feel better.

Been riding my whole life and did just fine without "hill hold". That said, it's a nice feature. On newer BMW bikes it's an option. If ordered it works by pulling in the front brake lever firmly to set. The second you release the clutch and start moving forward it releases. You can also release by giving the front brake lever an extra pull. You can use it or not. Simple and effective.

Those that prefer a bike with fewer features can buy a older used bike. If Harley is to survive in todays competitive market it must offer bikes with popular features. Harley cannot survive with it's traditional customer base alone, they are aging out of there prime buying years to put it nicely.

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

I can't argue with what you've said Scott, there are many things that have improved the lives of most people over the past 50 years, including many in the vehicular arena.  But there is also a lot to be said for the simpler products and simpler times of what some of us call "the good ol' days".  I look back (way back) at my life and it sure seems I enjoyed motorcycles a lot more in the 60's though 80's, when they were simple machines without all the frills.  I also enjoyed driving and tinkering with the simpler cars of those times more than the current stuff, even after considering the vastly improved reliability of modern day vehicles.  Modern stuff is usually better, but for some reason the old stuff was more fun.  I guess I'm just jaded.

Jerry

[Glenncarp]

I can't argue with what you've said Scott, there are many things that have improved the lives of most people over the past 50 years, including many in the vehicular arena.  But there is also a lot to be said for the simpler products and simpler times of what some of us call "the good ol' days".  I look back (way back) at my life and it sure seems I enjoyed motorcycles a lot more in the 60's though 80's, when they were simple machines without all the frills.  I also enjoyed driving and tinkering with the simpler cars of those times more than the current stuff, even after considering the vastly improved reliability of modern day vehicles.  Modern stuff is usually better, but for some reason the old stuff was more fun.  I guess I'm just jaded.

Jerry

I actually sold the '16 CVO and went with the RG special to get rid of some of the bells and whistles. I refuse to get a headset and I don't care that the GPS sucks. I just taker her out and ride and if I get lost, who cares, I live in the NC mountains! I'll find the Blue Ridge Parkway or a windy road that leads home at some point. Sometimes its nice to just ride. 

[scottt]

I can't argue with what you've said Scott, there are many things that have improved the lives of most people over the past 50 years, including many in the vehicular arena.  But there is also a lot to be said for the simpler products and simpler times of what some of us call "the good ol' days".  I look back (way back) at my life and it sure seems I enjoyed motorcycles a lot more in the 60's though 80's, when they were simple machines without all the frills.  I also enjoyed driving and tinkering with the simpler cars of those times more than the current stuff, even after considering the vastly improved reliability of modern day vehicles.  Modern stuff is usually better, but for some reason the old stuff was more fun.  I guess I'm just jaded.

Jerry

Jerry; i totally get where your coming from. There is something to be said for buying an older Harley, one with a carb, an older ElectraGlide Classic as one example. Very simple bike.

There is also something to be said for the riding experience delivered from a bike like the BMW K1600B. Never running out of throttle, passing at high speed with ease, a smooth ride, being able to hit corners with full confidence and, covering big miles without pain in my older body.

I've owned and riden both, each delivers a unique experience.

Harley needs to sell thousands and thousands of bikes. When you spend $25,000 to nearly $50,000, buyers are going to expect a bike with modern day features. If they wanted a great simple bike they could buy a older used bike for $8,000.

I see no reason to put Harley down for offering technology. They should follow BMW and offer build options, similar to the way cars are ordered.

In my long term Harley riding opinion, the motor company is suffering from a lack of advancement, not too much.


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[SDCVO]

The BMW GA I bought 10 months ago came with it and honestly I never even paid attention to it though I would see the green "H" come on when I stopped on a hill for quite a few months and then started actually letting go of the brake at a stoplight and found it to be awesome! Dont know how the Harley will work but if its as seemless as the BMW I think those that end up getting the 20 bikes with it will fall in love with it.
I will admit when I ride my BMW one day and my Harley the next I have let go of the brake on a hill at a stoplight not thinking and have had a quick "pucker moment"..

[Ironhorse]

Some tech items are good, like Delphi FI. I could tell the difference between my ‘95 Ultra and my ‘06 Ultra going over the Rockies. I like ABS, but it’s not a substitute for good braking skills. And therein lies the crux of the conversation. There is a difference between items that make riding nicer, like FI and cruise, and an item that masks poor riding skills, or impedes the development of good riding skills. It won’t be long till manufacturers come up with 360 degree cameras “for safety”, without realizing that with cameras riders will get lazy and neglect to turn their heads. Hill holder is one of those kinds of items.

[scottt]

Some tech items are good, like Delphi FI. I could tell the difference between my ‘95 Ultra and my ‘06 Ultra going over the Rockies. I like ABS, but it’s not a substitute for good braking skills. And therein lies the crux of the conversation. There is a difference between items that make riding nicer, like FI and cruise, and an item that masks poor riding skills, or impedes the development of good riding skills. It won’t be long till manufacturers come up with 360 degree cameras “for safety”, without realizing that with cameras riders will get lazy and neglect to turn their heads. Hill holder is one of those kinds of items.

The good news, you don't have to buy it! If it's on the bike you don't have to use it. Just accept that your in the minority  and that's not a put down in any way. It's live and let live. That's my motto. I don't control anything beyond myself.

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[iski]

Some of the dirt bikes I rode early on did not have brakes - actually they had brakes but they didn't work at all or barely worked.  Those bikes weighed a lot less (I did too) & riding was all gear selection & throttle. Long time ago, and I manged to ride ok on those bikes. Now with these 1,000 pounder bikes some of these bells and whistles - like VHC - will be welcomed.  Not as much by those who learned to ride without it as much as those from this point forward.  Reminds me of a conversation I was listening to from almost 60 years ago about automatic automobile wipers vs manual ones (no motor).  A couple of old farts were arguing  discussing the merits of each.  As a young whipersnapper at the time I found it funny. Who in hell wouldn't want automatic windshield wipers?  Argument went - But when the wiper motor breaks you can't over ride it.

The times they are a-changing.  HD is creeping slowly along as a late adapter to new tech, they sure aren't cutting edge.  There is still an off switch for a lot of this stuff, not so for others. Anyway, when it rains these days I still use a manual wiper for my face shield...

[scottt]

Some of the dirt bikes I rode early on did not have brakes - actually they had brakes but they didn't work at all or barely worked.  Those bikes weighed a lot less (I did too) & riding was all gear selection & throttle. Long time ago, and I manged to ride ok on those bikes. Now with these 1,000 pounder bikes some of these bells and whistles - like VHC - will be welcomed.  Not as much by those who learned to ride without it as much as those from this point forward.  Reminds me of a conversation I was listening to from almost 60 years ago about automatic automobile wipers vs manual ones (no motor).  A couple of old farts were arguing  discussing the merits of each.  As a young whipersnapper at the time I found it funny. Who in hell wouldn't want automatic windshield wipers?  Argument went - But when the wiper motor breaks you can't over ride it.

The times they are a-changing.  HD is creeping slowly along as a late adapter to new tech, they sure aren't cutting edge.  There is still an off switch for a lot of this stuff, not so for others. Anyway, when it rains these days I still use a manual wiper for my face shield...

Well said sir!

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[iski]

Well said sir!

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It's a good day when an old blind hog finds an acorn or 2. 

[WildmanUltra]

I look at all these things as making people lazy and then when a sensor fails then what will people do?

It's like the newer cars that parallel park your car for you. Or the sensors that tell you that you are too close to something. I found out real fast how worthless all this crap was this winter.
You get snow or ice on these sensors and they no longer work. For me with my prosthetic the hill control might be nice but I am doing just fine without all this junk. I never even own a vehicle with a automatic transmission for the first 15 years I was driving. Never had A/C for a lot of years either and never missed it.

[mark]

I look at all these things as making people lazy and then when a sensor fails then what will people do?

It's like the newer cars that parallel park your car for you. Or the sensors that tell you that you are too close to something. I found out real fast how worthless all this crap was this winter.
You get snow or ice on these sensors and they no longer work. For me with my prosthetic the hill control might be nice but I am doing just fine without all this junk. I never even own a vehicle with a automatic transmission for the first 15 years I was driving. Never had A/C for a lot of years either and never missed it.

If you'll go back in time we heard the same about fuel injection, ABS brakes, throttle by wire, cruise control, etc. 

[iski]

If you'll go back in time we heard the same about fuel injection, ABS brakes, throttle by wire, cruise control, etc.

At the end of the horse era somebody was saying: Buggy whip holders are the future, that horseless carriage will never catch on!

 

[RivRaptor]

I look at all these things as making people lazy and then when a sensor fails then what will people do?

It's like the newer cars that parallel park your car for you. Or the sensors that tell you that you are too close to something. I found out real fast how worthless all this crap was this winter.
You get snow or ice on these sensors and they no longer work. For me with my prosthetic the hill control might be nice but I am doing just fine without all this junk. I never even own a vehicle with a automatic transmission for the first 15 years I was driving. Never had A/C for a lot of years either and never missed it.

Agreed, if your going to make a bike do everything for you what's the point....just take the bus.

[Twolanerider]

Agreed, if your going to make a bike do everything for you what's the point....just take the bus.

Screw that.  The idea is to care about what you ride.  Doesn't matter what/how someone else rides.  Whatever floats their boat and makes them happy.  It's up to them.  Or, to quote Peter Fonda:

"We wanna be free! We wanna be free to do what we wanna do. We wanna be free to ride. We wanna be free to ride our machines without being hassled by The Man!"

Or my standard now decades old response to people that get all "special" about riding something other than a Harley (or whatever); "I don't care what you ride, who you ride, or how you ride.  Just leave me alone while I ride."

[08glide]

  not trying to thread jack here, but got a kick out of salesperson yesterday.  talked with sales person yesterday & they were trying to tell about the traction control & how it would keep you from sliding out on decelleration. even said it would keep you from sliding out in a curve. I'm thinking, BS. told them that in 40+ yrs of riding & road racing that on a HD I'd find it hard to believe someone could slide out under normal riding conditions. would have to be riding extremely hard,fast, etc & I don't see that happening. told them it was a good sales pitch for someone, but I wasn't buying it.the RG ultra looks like plain jane Honda paint. no glimmer,shine metal flake, very flat looking colors. looks lik an old honda.

[RivRaptor]

We wanna be free to ride.

Agreed.  Ride not drive.  Fonda & Hopper chose to ride for the experience of it, they could have drove.  (Glad they didn't, the movie would have sucked!)  Reducing the experience down to the equivalent of driving a Lexus, then IMO drive a Lexus.  CVO owners on this site have many choices to get from one place or another but, we chose to ride our Harley's. Hey I'm not against some innovation I just would hope Harley doesn't take the Harley out of their bikes it's the reason I bought one!

[scottt]

Agreed.  Ride not drive.  Fonda & Hopper chose to ride for the experience of it, they could have drove.  (Glad they didn't, the movie would have sucked!)  Reducing the experience down to the equivalent of driving a Lexus, then IMO drive a Lexus.  CVO owners on this site have many choices to get from one place or another but, we chose to ride our Harley's. Hey I'm not against some innovation I just would hope Harley doesn't take the Harley out of their bikes it's the reason I bought one!

Do tell please; what exactly is "don't take the Harley out of Harley's"?

Seriously, do we buy Harleys for styling down the road? How it looks in the garage? Or do we choose because we seriously ride and want a great motorcycle that delivers the best experience?

Have noticed, the number one comment about the 2020's is about paint. Really? Is Paint the most important feature of your bike? Very few comments about the new cornering ABS and how it could help save an accident.



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[longlast]

When you release the brake, do the stop lights go out?  To me that would be a deal breaker.  I make sure my brake lights are on the whole time I'm sitting still in a vulnerable situation.  In fact when someone is coming up behind me at a stop light, I flash my brake lights just to make sure they see me.  Being clobbered from behind while sitting at a stop once in my past, I'm not crazy about having it happen again.  I'm getting too old, and it takes a lot longer to recover from injuries.

Jerry

I do the same thing tapping the brakes when I'm at a stop and a vehicle is coming up on me.

As for vehicle hold control never owned one but have had work vehicles with it can't say I really liked it.  I've never had issues with rolling back on pulling away.

[Ironhorse]

Is Paint the most important feature of your bike? 

For the rest of the HD line up no, paint is not that important. But for the CVO line up, it should be. Paint is supposed to be one of those things that sets the CVO apart from the rest of the field. And if the buyers don't like it, then expect to hear about it.

There was a time when CVO meant something. Back then they were all built off the assembly line by hand picked crews. But that probably got to be too expensive, so they folded the CVO into the regular line up. Now it's just like the Shriner/Firefighter/Peace Officer Special Editions.

Actually,...when I think about it the Shriner/Firefighter/Peace Officer are all "order ahead and wait" bikes like the CVO used to be. Now you walk into a dealer and there sits 4 CVOs from this year, and 4 CVOs from last year. Kinda takes the uniqueness out of it.

[Finster101]

"Seriously, do we buy Harleys for styling down the road? How it looks in the garage? Or do we choose because we seriously ride and want a great motorcycle that delivers the best experience?"


Simply put, YES to all three questions.  However what I might consider the best riding experience may not be the same as Mr. Goldwinger or the BMW guy.  I have sat on a few wings and I feel like I'm driving a bus.  I have a couple of friends who ride them and throw them around in the mountains better than some guys on sport bikes.   

[BigLock]

I agree paint on a CVO is everything. I know my 12 CVO RG was painted by Gun Slinger out of CO. Must likely all CVO's that year was. I think that was the last year they painted for HD.

[scottt]

I agree paint on a CVO is everything. I know my 12 CVO RG was painted by Gun Slinger out of CO. Must likely all CVO's that year was. I think that was the last year they painted for HD.

While i respect your position, a CVO should stand for all the best components. Engine, suspension. Paint and style should also be above but not the primary focus of the build. The engine and suspension should receive most of the build budget. This would keep the CVO special. It should be hard to get, very special IMHO.

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[Ironhorse]

The engine and suspension should receive most of the build budget. This would keep the CVO special. It should be hard to get, very special IMHO.

And that's how it used to be. Only the CVO came with the bigger engine 95', 103", 110", 114", and now 117". It came with SE cams, intake and exhaust, and a bunch of chrome plus a special limited paint job. And it WAS hard to get, people were putting down payments and waiting 4-6 months. Like I said earlier the bikes were made by hand picked teams off the assembly line. But all of that went away.

Now you walk into the dealer and there it sits on the floor,...alongside last years CVO bike.

[scottt]

And that's how it used to be. Only the CVO came with the bigger engine 95', 103", 110", 114", and now 117". It came with SE cams, intake and exhaust, and a bunch of chrome plus a special limited paint job. And it WAS hard to get, people were putting down payments and waiting 4-6 months. Like I said earlier the bikes were made by hand picked teams off the assembly line. But all of that went away.

Now you walk into the dealer and there it sits on the floor,...alongside last years CVO bike.

My last CVO was a 07 with the 110. The bike looked beautiful but sucked on function. The engine ran beyond hot due to a lean condition. Had a tuner installed and did a dyno tune. Still performed way below expectations. The suspension was no better, upgraded to Ledgend suspension.

Overall the bike was a disappointing experience. Had issues, i finally threw in the towel. The 110's are not known for having great components, had major crank runout issues. Lifter issues, heat and pinging issues. In my opinion I'd rather have the older 103 SE motor.

When the 08's came out the CVO was totally available. From my experience the waiting list ended in 07. Today they loose more value than a standard Harley. Really, a ultra limited Road Glide with a 114 makes the most sense. If your buying a new 2020.

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[WildmanUltra]

If you'll go back in time we heard the same about fuel injection, ABS brakes, throttle by wire, cruise control, etc.

Agreed, it took me a long time to want fuel injection on my vehicles. But also remember 30 years ago the first attempts at FI were very lame and a lot of times didn't work worth a darn.
I'm not saying some of there items aren't a good thing but I still feel some makes people LAZY. The lane warning feature is one. Now the car tells you when you wonder instead of having to keep your attention on your driving. The same with the systems that brake for you if you're not paying attention and you get too close to the rig in front of you. I've been driving for over 40 years now and have only rear ended one rig. And it was my fault becaue I was trying to light a cigarette and took my eyes off the road. I'm not faulting these new things and know they make driving safer in SOME ways but I fear when that car gets older and things start to fail what might happen. And as I said before all this stuff doesn't always work in some driving conditions.

I've never had a bike with traction control or hill hold or any of these other new items so I can't speak on how they work and if they really help. But I do know the first bike I ever had with ABS I didn't like that well to start with. It took me time to get use to braking and allowing the ABS to work as it should instead of braking like I would on a bike without it. So only time will tell if these items really make riding safer or if they only are an added expense that adds to the service bill as things wear out or fail. I worry about the person who doesn't have the funds to repair their bike or car when something goes bad and then keep operating it.

[Ironhorse]

The 110's are not known for having great components, had major crank runout issues. Lifter issues, heat and pinging issues. In my opinion I'd rather have the older 103 SE motor.

That is exactly why the ONLY CVO for me was the '06 Ultra. And I wanted one with at least 30K on the clock. I took mine to 83K before cracking the engine open.

[Ironhorse]

Agreed, it took me a long time to want fuel injection on my vehicles. But also remember 30 years ago the first attempts at FI were very lame and a lot of times didn't work worth a darn.
I'm not saying some of there items aren't a good thing but I still feel some makes people LAZY. The lane warning feature is one. Now the car tells you when you wonder instead of having to keep your attention on your driving. The same with the systems that brake for you if you're not paying attention and you get too close to the rig in front of you. I've been driving for over 40 years now and have only rear ended one rig. And it was my fault becaue I was trying to light a cigarette and took my eyes off the road. I'm not faulting these new things and know they make driving safer in SOME ways but I fear when that car gets older and things start to fail what might happen. And as I said before all this stuff doesn't always work in some driving conditions.

I've never had a bike with traction control or hill hold or any of these other new items so I can't speak on how they work and if they really help. But I do know the first bike I ever had with ABS I didn't like that well to start with. It took me time to get use to braking and allowing the ABS to work as it should instead of braking like I would on a bike without it. So only time will tell if these items really make riding safer or if they only are an added expense that adds to the service bill as things wear out or fail. I worry about the person who doesn't have the funds to repair their bike or car when something goes bad and then keep operating it.

You touch on some very good points.

The first FI bike I had was a 1995 BMW RT. It ran well under all conditions. My second FI bike was the '01 Ultra. It had the Magnetti-Marelli FI system which was nothing but a pain. However, I love the Delphi FI on my '06. It's tuned and runs well, especially at altitude going over the Rockies and Bear Tooth pass.

As for ABS, I think it's a good thing but folks have got to practice with it regularly. If they don't, they will be uncomfortable when it kicks in. I'm not a big fan of linked brakes, as that promotes laziness through lack of practice too.

I am with you 100% on all the new fangled "upgrade" packages on cars. Lane position sensors and proximity sensors promote bad habits. Drivers will lose their "down field" focus and start watching only the cars directly in front of them and on the sides. Instead of reading traffic they will be waiting for the alarm to go off and the on dash indicator to light up showing them how close the other cars are. And as soon as your focus drops from 3-5 cars ahead to the car in front of you, you're out of the game. Same with back up cameras. I had one on my work truck and hardly used it. I've seen too many drivers in the parking lot with their head down and eyes locked on the screen. They never come up and scan 360 for threats.

[CVODON]

I have to disagree with the lazy comments due to electronic greatness. There are about a million more cars now on the road than when I started driving and I like all the help I can get. I have a car with all the latest stuff and some of it I do not consciencely use but if for some reason a warning goes off that is good if it even prevents one accident in a lifetime. Also what everyone seems to overlook is the lane change and forward warning do not help only you, it also lets you know if the guy on your left, or right, is encroaching in your lane and the computer will jump on the brakes faster than you can when some idiot changes lanes in front of you and stands on his brake pedal.
I love ABS, wouldn't have a new vehicle without it but i read on this forum where a guy had pulled the fuse so his so it wouldn't work, and the bike was new. We all have different views and opinions but personally I like anything that will help prevent me from hurting myself or others. Getting old and need all the help I can get. I do not want another new bike, IMHO the colors just suck, but I may buy just for the safety stuff.

[WildmanUltra]

Okay maybe lazy isn't the correct verbiage to use. I think for some people it will make them more dependent on these electronic features instead of learning how to really drive. Like the system that will parallel your rig for you now. I drove a semi for some years and could parallel park it with a 53' trailer hooked up. How many people CAN'T even drive and manual transmission anymore?
Instead of scanning your lane and looking ahead like I was taught to do many will rely on these devices instead. So I call it being lazy.

And as I stated before all this stuff makes things cost more and when something breaks it means people like me can't work on this stuff without spending $$$$ before we can even diagnose the issue. While I too agree some of these things have made life better I am not going to say I think they are all GREAT.   

[scottt]

I have to disagree with the lazy comments due to electronic greatness. There are about a million more cars now on the road than when I started driving and I like all the help I can get. I have a car with all the latest stuff and some of it I do not consciencely use but if for some reason a warning goes off that is good if it even prevents one accident in a lifetime. Also what everyone seems to overlook is the lane change and forward warning do not help only you, it also lets you know if the guy on your left, or right, is encroaching in your lane and the computer will jump on the brakes faster than you can when some idiot changes lanes in front of you and stands on his brake pedal.
I love ABS, wouldn't have a new vehicle without it but i read on this forum where a guy had pulled the fuse so his so it wouldn't work, and the bike was new. We all have different views and opinions but personally I like anything that will help prevent me from hurting myself or others. Getting old and need all the help I can get. I do not want another new bike, IMHO the colors just suck, but I may buy just for the safety stuff.

Totally agree with this post as i believe most new buyers would. The most experienced rider cannot brake as safely as ABS under all potential conditions, especially the new cornering ABS technology. We all know how dangerous it is to brake while leaned over in a corner, this new feature will greatly improve your chances should you brake under these conditions. As they say "stuff happens". Better to have technology on your side than not.

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[Ironhorse]

Totally agree with this post as i believe most new buyers would. The most experienced rider cannot brake as safely as ABS under all potential conditions, especially the new cornering ABS technology. We all know how dangerous it is to brake while leaned over in a corner, this new feature will greatly improve your chances should you brake under these conditions. As they say "stuff happens". Better to have technology on your side than not.

Yes,....as long as the rider practices with it and learns how it feels and reacts when it's deployed. I can't tell you how many times I've asked riders, how do you like the ABS and they say "I don't know, I've never used it". Work with it, feel what it's like when it kicks in. I hope we don't develop a generation of riders who will just ride through curves without scanning the surface, looking for hazards, looking for the apex or looking for an exit all because their bike "can brake in a curve". Riders must still understand that if they are drifting outside, they need to look through the exit, press the inside grip forward and roll on the throttle. As amazing as this device is, (and I'm sure it's damn amazing) I don't think it will make up for the unpracticed rider who target fixates on an oncoming car or the ditch on the far side.

It's great to have the technology on your side, as long as you practice with it and know how it reacts, what it's going to do and what the limitations are.

[scottt]

Yes,....as long as the rider practices with it and learns how it feels and reacts when it's deployed. I can't tell you how many times I've asked riders, how do you like the ABS and they say "I don't know, I've never used it". Work with it, feel what it's like when it kicks in. I hope we don't develop a generation of riders who will just ride through curves without scanning the surface, looking for hazards, looking for the apex or looking for an exit all because their bike "can brake in a curve". Riders must still understand that if they are drifting outside, they need to look through the exit, press the inside grip forward and roll on the throttle. As amazing as this device is, (and I'm sure it's damn amazing) I don't think it will make up for the unpracticed rider who target fixates on an oncoming car or the ditch on the far side.

It's great to have the technology on your side, as long as you practice with it and know how it reacts, what it's going to do and what the limitations are.

Totally agree!

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[FLSTFI Dave]

Do tell please; what exactly is "don't take the Harley out of Harley's"?

Seriously, do we buy Harleys for styling down the road? How it looks in the garage? Or do we choose because we seriously ride and want a great motorcycle that delivers the best experience?

Have noticed, the number one comment about the 2020's is about paint. Really? Is Paint the most important feature of your bike? Very few comments about the new cornering ABS and how it could help save an accident.



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Well, a CVO is a good 10K more than the same bike, non-CVO.  So I had better get something worth 10K more.  So it should have much better, sharper looking paint.  It should have more stylized controls.  You cant see the new traction control and cornering ABS.  You would have to test the bike very hard, to the point of dragging the boards to find out if it really works.

Harley is not know for releasing new Tech that works right the first several years its out.  WHIM and wireless head set on my last two CVO suck.  Cant get the volume sound enough to hear it when using helmet speakers.  When using  bike speakers in will never ring in.  Wind noise is very bad on a half helmet, its almost impossible to talk to another bike, works fine with full face.  Yet my old plug in head set works great, half helmet or full face, cb or phone.

Head Unit has many issues, turn is wrong way, it freezes and never changes next street and so many more issues.

How about they fix the Sumping?  I would be interested in that.  How ab out they fix the oil transfer?  I would like that.  How about the moisture in the gages that has been an issue for more than six years. 

[Ironhorse]

Harley is not know for releasing new Tech that works right the first several years its out.

How about they fix the Sumping?  I would be interested in that.  How about they fix the oil transfer?  I would like that.  How about the moisture in the gauges that has been an issue for more than six years.

Ahhh,....wishful thinking,....

[iski]

Ahhh,....wishful thinking,....

Maybe an aftermarket vendor (Kury?) could invent some tiny inside the gauge windshield wipers to fix the problem?   

[grc]

Maybe an aftermarket vendor (Kury?) could invent some tiny inside the gauge windshield wipers to fix the problem?   

Sounds like a great idea, much better than mine.  I was planning to suggest Harley install a desiccant cartridge in the gauge cluster to absorb moisture, and then add changing it every 1000 miles in the maintenance schedule.  A replacement cartridge will cost $49.95, labor will be about 1.2 hours.  Failure to change the cartridge on a timely basis will void the warranty on the gauges.

Jerry

[Ironhorse]

Sounds like a great idea, much better than mine.  I was planning to suggest Harley install a desiccant cartridge in the gauge cluster to absorb moisture, and then add changing it every 1000 miles in the maintenance schedule.  A replacement cartridge will cost $49.95, labor will be about 1.2 hours.  Failure to change the cartridge on a timely basis will void the warranty on the gauges.

I was gonna suggest using your wife's hair dryer.

[iski]

Sounds like a great idea, much better than mine.  I was planning to suggest Harley install a desiccant cartridge in the gauge cluster to absorb moisture, and then add changing it every 1000 miles in the maintenance schedule.  A replacement cartridge will cost $49.95, labor will be about 1.2 hours.  Failure to change the cartridge on a timely basis will void the warranty on the gauges.

Jerry

My idea adds nothing to the HD bottom line.  No doubt Harley has a meeting to discuss your idea on their agenda. Performance Clear Gauges Cartridge as a 2021 catalogue item, will be standard on the 2023 bikes.  My Kury wiper idea would void the warranty for the entire bike ~"Unauthorized gauge moisture removal caused the sumping problem, your warranty is void."  CVO bikes will require a special CVO Screamin' Eagle gauges cartridge that will cost $99.50.

Or they could just use the same very well known tech knowledge that the auto industry has used about forever to have fog free gauges...

[FLSTFI Dave]

My idea adds nothing to the HD bottom line.  No doubt Harley has a meeting to discuss your idea on their agenda. Performance Clear Gauges Cartridge as a 2021 catalogue item, will be standard on the 2023 bikes.  My Kury wiper idea would void the warranty for the entire bike ~"Unauthorized gauge moisture removal caused the sumping problem, your warranty is void."  CVO bikes will require a special CVO Screamin' Eagle gauges cartridge that will cost $99.50.

Or they could just use the same very well known tech knowledge that the auto industry has used about forever to have fog free gauges...

I think they could go back and use the 2009 and earlier Harley Technology.  My 2003 Fatboy gage is perfect, no fogging or runs.  My wire's 2009 Heritage with over 100,000 miles on it gage is perfect.

My 13 CVO King there are moisture runs in it, and bad fogging cant hardly read the odometer.  My 19 Speedometer has runs in it and slight fogging.  My 15 and my 17 had gages replaced as will my 19. 

13 waited to fogging until it was 6 months out of warranty.

[iski]

I think they could go back and use the 2009 and earlier Harley Technology.  My 2003 Fatboy gage is perfect, no fogging or runs.  My wire's 2009 Heritage with over 100,000 miles on it gage is perfect.

My 13 CVO King there are moisture runs in it, and bad fogging cant hardly read the odometer.  My 19 Speedometer has runs in it and slight fogging.  My 15 and my 17 had gages replaced as will my 19. 

13 waited to fogging until it was 6 months out of warranty.

Very odd that HD went from proven tech to problem tech & never cared to address it after multiple year issues.  My opinion on HD is formed by this as well as other unexplainable but fixable failures, and it's dropping each year.  It makes you wonder if the people who work at HD just ride them for show & to sell bikes?

[Phreakyz]

I was reading the latest issue of HOG and read that the Hold Control will disengage if you place the bike in neutral and release the clutch.   I often do this when sitting at a light to take the load off my hand and the clutch.     
So, you have to keep the clutch pulled...   Might as well just keep the frt brake pulled!     Sounds worthless to me.

[scottt]

I was reading the latest issue of HOG and read that the Hold Control will disengage if you place the bike in neutral and release the clutch.   I often do this when sitting at a light to take the load off my hand and the clutch.     
So, you have to keep the clutch pulled...   Might as well just keep the frt brake pulled!     Sounds worthless to me.

That's not a good design, i agree.

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[Chains]

When you release the brake, do the stop lights go out?  To me that would be a deal breaker.  I make sure my brake lights are on the whole time I'm sitting still in a vulnerable situation.  In fact when someone is coming up behind me at a stop light, I flash my brake lights just to make sure they see me.  Being clobbered from behind while sitting at a stop once in my past, I'm not crazy about having it happen again.  I'm getting too old, and it takes a lot longer to recover from injuries.

Jerry

I’m with Jerry I do the same thing way to old to be hit from behind

[VaEagle]

I was reading the latest issue of HOG and read that the Hold Control will disengage if you place the bike in neutral and release the clutch.   I often do this when sitting at a light to take the load off my hand and the clutch.     
So, you have to keep the clutch pulled...   Might as well just keep the frt brake pulled!     Sounds worthless to me.

Personally I always keep the bike in gear at a stop light in order to respond quicker to an emergency such as a car failing to stop in time and possibly rear ending the bike. Or having some inattentive driver hit the bike when light turns green and you don't take off fast enough for them.
As another poster has also stated I like my taillights on at the stop as well. I usually have a brake light modulator to blink the lights to draw attention to the bike.

[ultrarider123]

Personally I always keep the bike in gear at a stop light in order to respond quicker to an emergency such as a car failing to stop in time and possibly rear ending the bike. Or having some inattentive driver hit the bike when light turns green and you don't take off fast enough for them.
As another poster has also stated I like my taillights on at the stop as well. I usually have a brake light modulator to blink the lights to draw attention to the bike.

I'm with ya on this and Jerry as well on cycling my brake lights at a stop/red light when vehicles are approaching from the rear...whatever helps to keep the cages honest...