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CVO Technical => Wheels/Tires/Suspension/Brakes => Topic started by: Twolanerider on April 30, 2010, 11:48:53 AM
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They are non-serviceable as supported by HD. No service parts or rebuild kits for the internals.
Have some good original black ones to be chromed. HD parts manuals show nothing for the internals. Wanted to verify so spoke with a chrome shop that's done quite a few, including several for a local-to-them HD dealership. No internals available.
Break them down. Get the chroming done. Reuse the internals. Lose something or damage an o-ring and the caliper is junk.
Seems a little chicken-chit that the OE won't supply service parts for what are serviceable units. Guess they see some benefit to selling dealerships and end users several hundred dollar calipers rather than less than $50 rebuild kits.
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You are correct. The HD Brembo calipers are not serviceable; no service parts available. There aren't even torque specs in the HD Service Manuals for putting the calipers back together, for example, after they've been disassembled and chromed.
A good friend is a service manager at an HD dealership and I told him a couple of months ago that the Brembos are not serviceable. He was surprised (he was considering retrofitting them to his '06 Ultra after he saw how much better the Brembos were on my '04 EG) so he checked into it at MOCO. Don't know how far up the food chain he went but he told me later that the lack of service parts was Brembo's deal point in supplying their calipers to HD. How accurate that account is I have no idea. The result is the same: no service parts for Brembo calipers apart from that necessary to change pads.
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Somehow I think the MOCO will manage to survive in spite of the ever increasing non-customer friendly occurrences, policies and attitudes... :nixweiss:
But if they don't manage to survive....the epitaph will be really really really long.... ???
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I would be more inclined to believe that the lack of serviceability is a MoCo idea rather than Brembo's. It's a total win situation for the MoCo, with reduced inventory and warehousing costs. It also gets them and their dealer's off any liability hook if the "factory trained" technicians in the typical dealership screw up a rebuild. And best of all, they make a much bigger profit selling you new calipers and master cylinders instead of low markup pistons, seals and clips.
This isn't a new thing, it's been going on for a lot of years in other industries as well. Try buying component parts for your car or truck these days; all you may need is a $10 piece but you have to buy a $400 assembly to get it. Same thing with appliances and most other consumer products. It's all part of the throwaway, disposable product economy, where products are designed for a limited lifespan and with parts that snap together (one time only). Cheap is the name of the game.
Jerry
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Non-serviceability in this case is in no way a sum of the assembly. They come apart like any other caliper. They'll go back together the same way. If Harley doesn't want to sell me the parts I'll oblige their unwillingness to sell me obvious parts by not giving them my money.
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But if they don't manage to survive....the epitaph will be really really really long.... ???
Profound, very profound. Sadly.
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I had a grinding sound coming from the right-rear of my '04 Silverado truck. Pulled it down and the caliper had frozen and ground deep grooves in the rotor. Went parts shopping last Saturday so I could fix everything. I knew I would have to replace the rotor since it was way past service limits, so I didn't mind paying $45 for one from NAPA. What pi**ed me off was that NO ONE had a $9 caliper kit - not even the Chevy dealers! All I could buy was a $42 "rebuilt" caliper from the same parts houses! When I asked them all why they didn't stock the kit, they all said that "everyone just wants to replace the caliper and not take the time to rebuild the caliper". I'm sure the profit margin on a $42 mexican rebuilt caliper vs a $9 kit has something to do with it also.
This trend isn't new, but it is getting out of hand. Anyone remember when they would re-line brake pads?
Bill
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I had a grinding sound coming from the right-rear of my '04 Silverado truck. Pulled it down and the caliper had frozen and ground deep grooves in the rotor. Went parts shopping last Saturday so I could fix everything. I knew I would have to replace the rotor since it was way past service limits, so I didn't mind paying $45 for one from NAPA. What pi**ed me off was that NO ONE had a $9 caliper kit - not even the Chevy dealers! All I could buy was a $42 "rebuilt" caliper from the same parts houses! When I asked them all why they didn't stock the kit, they all said that "everyone just wants to replace the caliper and not take the time to rebuild the caliper". I'm sure the profit margin on a $42 mexican rebuilt caliper vs a $9 kit has something to do with it also.
This trend isn't new, but it is getting out of hand. Anyone remember when they would re-line brake pads?
Bill
I don't remember relining pads, but I most assuredly remember relining brake shoes. That should give you an idea of how old I'm getting. ;D
Let me give you some more examples. Take your new whiz-bang motors automobile in for a defective transmission, and you're likely to get a complete factory rebuilt assembly instead of a dealer tech removing and replacing the individual defective parts. As these things become more and more complicated, and qualified mechanics become more and more difficult to find, it is cheaper, faster, and less likely to have a comeback if the manufacturer just arranges to have everything rebuilt in a factory setting. Same thing goes for parts like alternators, starters, etc. that we used to rebuild ourselves; now it's much easier to find factory rebuilt stuff for prices that aren't bad at all when you consider the labor savings.
Unfortunately, I can't say the same for the H-D stuff. You won't find a $30 caliper at the Harley store, it will be more like $400. I often thought that one advantage of buying an outdated design like a Harley, versus the constantly changing and updating Japanese bikes, was that parts would be easy to find and relatively inexpensive. Looks like that is about to change, as we get more of those short term types running the show. Wonder how long it will be before they decide to make the ACR's part of the cylinder head, so you have to buy a new head each time the POS fails? Don't laugh, they've already indicated they won't be selling replacement valve guides for the 110's. (Fortunately, the aftermarket makes better stuff anyway).
Jerry
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Frankly I think this issue is viewed differently by people not like you guys who do have the technical knowledge to work on your bikes. Finding out that you can't get the parts replaced sucks without doubt. However, I for one cannot work on my bike. Anything beyond double sided adhesive tape is beyond me. So I rather pay up for an assembled new part, specifically such a crucial part, instead of hoping the tech at the dealer knows what they are doing. Hope this makes sense and explains another view.
Ride safely,
Louis
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Frankly I think this issue is viewed differently by people not like you guys who do have the technical knowledge to work on your bikes. Finding out that you can't get the parts replaced sucks without doubt. However, I for one cannot work on my bike. Anything beyond double sided adhesive tape is beyond me. So I rather pay up for an assembled new part, specifically such a crucial part, instead of hoping the tech at the dealer knows what they are doing. Hope this makes sense and explains another view.
Ride safely,
Louis
Louis, there is no doubt in my mind that your view probably represents the sane majority. For those of us who have spent a lifetime tearing stuff apart and putting it back together, however, it is a hard pill to swallow. Maybe it's my Scottish heritage, but I just can't embrace throwing away perfectly good stuff just because I can't obtain the one little piece I need to fix the entire thing. BTW, it's OK to think I'm crazy, or even come right out and say it. My wife tells me I'm nuts all the time, as I take things like her vacuum cleaner or hair dryer apart and fix them versus throwing them in the trash and buying new ones. Even if I find I can't fix it, I just feel better knowing I tried. Yup, I'm certifiable. :rolleyes4: :zstupid:
Jerry :)
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Knew this thread would go here. Question of tinkerers versus those more sane (in the context of today's supply systems). A really uncomfortable part of the question, however, is mirrored in our oft voiced frustrations of the poor quality of working too commonly coming from the dealerships. It's hard to trust the techs and shops. That repairability is sacrificed to replacement more and more only highlights that the OE doesn't trust them any more than we do.
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hd's engine reman program is the future of all this sort of work
they do the whole thing in the factory - it really IS hard to beat there price to reman the engine..
sportster? no trap door on the trans - anything goes - its cheaper to do a whole unit
for cars its the same thing - brakes come as whole wheel ends in the box - truck wheel ends can come complete with bearings - the entire unit in a box. clutch comes as a kit - flywheel, pressure plate, friction disk & hydraulics all in one box - for less than the cost of any two parts.
its just the way it is
to
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I don't understand why this is a surprise to all, in the '08 Model Year Technical Forum it clearly says Brembo Brakes - Calipers are not rebuildable, '09's and '10's are no different.
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I don't understand why this is a surprise to all, in the '08 Model Year Technical Forum it clearly says Brembo Brakes - Calipers are not rebuildable, '09's and '10's are no different.
The point of discussion here is that they aren't rebuildable by policy choice rather than by the assemblies themselves. The calipers are in fact completely rebuildable; tech manuals notwithstanding.
The calipers break down easily and obviously. OE just won't sell the parts to accomplish the relatively simple task.
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The calipers are in fact completely rebuildable; tech manuals notwithstanding.
Says who ? Being able to take something apart dose not translate to it being rebuildable.
HD said in 2007 that the Calipers are not rebuildable and it's my understanding this came from Brembo as in their opinion the caliper will out last the bike.
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We all need one of these:
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Says who ? Being able to take something apart dose not translate to it being rebuildable.
HD said in 2007 that the Calipers are not rebuildable and it's my understanding this came from Brembo as in their opinion the caliper will out last the bike.
Not rebuildable; because they won't sell the parts to rebuild it. That's the only reason.
The calipers do come apart. The pistons and o-rings do come out. They can be reinstalled. That and pehaps a little honing is all there is to rebuilding most calipers. These included. The pair disassembled on my work bench are but on example. Their non-rebuildable specification is a policy choice not a physical fact of the parts ability to be worked on.
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Louis, there is no doubt in my mind that your view probably represents the sane majority. For those of us who have spent a lifetime tearing stuff apart and putting it back together, however, it is a hard pill to swallow. Maybe it's my Scottish heritage, but I just can't embrace throwing away perfectly good stuff just because I can't obtain the one little piece I need to fix the entire thing. BTW, it's OK to think I'm crazy, or even come right out and say it. My wife tells me I'm nuts all the time, as I take things like her vacuum cleaner or hair dryer apart and fix them versus throwing them in the trash and buying new ones. Even if I find I can't fix it, I just feel better knowing I tried. Yup, I'm certifiable. :rolleyes4: :zstupid:
Jerry :)
Jerry, sounds like we are married to sisters!!! Sorry for the brief hijack.
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The answer may be as simple as HD wanting to cut-out the option of aftermarket chrome plating of Brembo calipers and driving customers to purchase their chrome calipers from HD, or HD wanting to avoid stocking additional SKU's for repair parts and their reduced margins from making repair parts available, or both.
It certainly isn't a very "green" policy on HD's part to require trashing an entire caliper when all that may be needed are some new seals and/or pistons to reuse the originals.
Let's hope an enterprising guy will figure out a source for replacement seals and pistons for the Brembos and package them for sale to shops and individuals.
Carl
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That ^ remark proves how much of a dinosaur I am. I was only cumulatively cheap and annoyed. Never thought of it from an environmental perspective. ???
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The answer may be as simple as HD wanting to cut-out the option of aftermarket chrome plating of Brembo calipers and driving customers to purchase their chrome calipers from HD, or HD wanting to avoid stocking additional SKU's for repair parts and their reduced margins from making repair parts available, or both.
It certainly isn't a very "green" policy on HD's part to require trashing an entire caliper when all that may be needed are some new seals and/or pistons to reuse the originals.
Let's hope an enterprising guy will figure out a source for replacement seals and pistons for the Brembos and package them for sale to shops and individuals.
Carl
The only GREEN HD thinks about is the GREEN they get from your wallet...
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Just in case anyone thought this new nonrepairable policy is limited to calipers, I thought I'd attach part of a recent bulletin concerning the clutch master cylinder, which is also nonrepairable on the 2010 models after a certain date. How much you want to bet there will be a similar bulletin somewhere about the brake master cylinder, eventually followed by many more in a similar vein?
Jerry
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S--it Jerry - where does this stuff stop. A mechanical assembly with seals and "o"rings that can't be serviced with $6 of rubber parts. The housing is fine, it just needs some "wear"parts after a bunch of miles....my dad would turn over, all he ever did was rebuild stuff...
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I wouldn't think twice about rebuilding a master cylinder or a caliper myself. BUT where I think this is going, after some of the horror stories we have all heard about some of the HD "techs" out there, who here would want to jump on a bike with the brakes just serviced by a less then average tech. Maybe by making these parts non-serviceable HD is trying to control the rebuild quality. Last I heard brakes can be pretty important. I hope no one takes offense to this, but we have all heard those stories.
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I wouldn't think twice about rebuilding a master cylinder or a caliper myself. BUT where I think this is going, after some of the horror stories we have all heard about some of the HD "techs" out there, who here would want to jump on a bike with the brakes just serviced by a less then average tech. Maybe by making these parts non-serviceable HD is trying to control the rebuild quality. Last I heard brakes can be pretty important. I hope no one takes offense to this, but we have all heard those stories.
Saying they need to be rebuild without error is not saying they can't be rebuilt though. Grew up rebuilding wheel cylinders, calipers, master cylinders and other hydraulics. Careful attention to detail and recognition of what you're seeing and feeling is all it takes. That many would choose not to is perfectly understandable. That by policy choice a mftr chooses to disallow us the option, however, really isn't.