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Author Topic: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.  (Read 6007 times)

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johnsachs

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Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« on: July 01, 2018, 06:23:14 PM »

2 sets of heads came in last week for mods.
Upon disassembly of 1 set this is what I found. Installed height within specs. Valve spring open and closed within 7 psi of specs.
I bet the owner never realized he had an issue with the springs. NO other damage. Put the shoe on the other foot, what do you think would have happened if it were a beehive spring ?  >:(
John
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Yellow09SERG

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2018, 10:33:18 PM »

John you have just about convenienced me it time to get the beehives off the heads.
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2018, 11:31:23 AM »

Do you still get on airplanes?
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johnsachs

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2018, 04:55:03 PM »

Yes, just so long you're not the pilot. ;D
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2018, 05:58:34 PM »

Lol
Good thing it was a double.
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Yellow09SERG

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2018, 10:38:59 PM »

Do you still get on airplanes?
Yep, but not built any of them lately either.
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grc

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 08:38:10 AM »


Yes, the dual springs have that safety factor, if one breaks the other can reduce the chances of a catastrophic failure.  But, as you can see by this example, the straight wound spring obviously can break just like the conical beehive spring.  Looks to me like the quality of springs in general could use some improvement.  Either that or there is something in the setup of the heads that's over-stressing the springs.

Perhaps we should go to desmodromic valve control?

Jerry ;)
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Para Bellum

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 01:18:00 PM »

Yes, the dual springs have that safety factor, if one breaks the other can reduce the chances of a catastrophic failure.  But, as you can see by this example, the straight wound spring obviously can break just like the conical beehive spring.  Looks to me like the quality of springs in general could use some improvement.  Either that or there is something in the setup of the heads that's over-stressing the springs.

Perhaps we should go to desmodromic valve control?

Jerry ;)
You trying to completely confuse the same HD engineers who couldn't properly design an oiling system, compensator, etc.?    :huepfenlol2:
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Twolanerider

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 01:39:55 PM »

You trying to completely confuse the same HD engineers who couldn't properly design an oiling system, compensator, etc.?    :huepfenlol2:

Perhaps they should have bought Ducati after all.  Learn from someone that uses them.
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prodrag1320

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2018, 08:26:40 AM »

Do you still get on airplanes?


not any that have valve springs

MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2018, 10:58:18 AM »

Yes, just so long you're not the pilot. ;D

I have over 200 flight hours in my log book. So far, so good (I'm still here).

But I'd take a turbine over a piston engine every time given the choice.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2018, 12:42:34 PM by MCE Performance »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2018, 11:35:31 AM »

Fixed a set of heads a few nights ago with a broken beehive. Both valves bent and piston struck.
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Yellow09SERG

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2018, 02:36:25 PM »

Fixed a set of heads a few nights ago with a broken beehive. Both valves bent and piston struck.
Just imagine if you had been in an airplane
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Twolanerider

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2018, 04:46:49 PM »

Just imagine if you had been in an airplane


Commercial carriers don't let you run machine tools in coach.
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TorqueInc

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2018, 10:17:06 PM »

Fixed a set of heads a few nights ago with a broken beehive. Both valves bent and piston struck.
Factory beehives ?
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2018, 09:20:32 AM »

Yes
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TorqueInc

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2018, 11:43:31 PM »

Very rare

Far more broken retainers than springs

What do you suspect caused it?
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2018, 02:39:05 PM »

2 sets of heads came in last week for mods.
Upon disassembly of 1 set this is what I found. Installed height within specs. Valve spring open and closed within 7 psi of specs.
I bet the owner never realized he had an issue with the springs. NO other damage. Put the shoe on the other foot, what do you think would have happened if it were a beehive spring ?  >:(
John

Looks like there's some reversion is going on too. btw...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 03:43:44 PM by MCE Performance »
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2018, 03:00:38 PM »

Very rare

Far more broken retainers than springs

What do you suspect caused it?

I had an LS Chevy head (similar spring/retainer) in recently where the retainer had
opened up (soft) and the keepers and valve had almost slipped through it. Another
pass and it would have dropped that valve.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2018, 05:08:22 PM »

Very rare

Far more broken retainers than springs

What do you suspect caused it?
Just an oem part at the end of its life cycle. It had 40,000 miles on it, over 20k with a .590 lift cam. It is the third I can remember in 10 years of the heads I have worked on.
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2018, 10:27:17 PM »

Got this in today. Broken Beehive.
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2018, 10:45:44 PM »

Broke the guide too
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2018, 07:51:15 PM »

Another to add to the list. AV&V .650. Others use the same springs, there is no escaping this by brand changes.
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2018, 12:30:38 PM »

Cryogenic treating the springs and retainers will extend their life. It transforms the austenitic structures
into martensitic structures, which makes them stronger and more ductile (less prone to fatigue failure).

Food for thought...
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2018, 12:43:27 PM »

I know the spiel.
Not used on aerospace parts to the best of my knowledge because there is not consistant way to prove the material properties. I remember mondello. A proponent.

Or just use dual springs with TI retainers with the proper pressure.
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2018, 01:51:20 PM »

I know guys that cryo everything. Blocks, rods, head studs, pushrods, etc.
My mentor (Darin Morgan) is a big proponent as well. So I take what he tells
me at face value.

The metallurgical theory behind it is rock solid solid, and the results back it up.
 
Now, Weather it's worth the cost is an entirely different subject. But I can get cryo
treatment done for next to nothing (if I ship it off to N.Y. state)
going to look for a local source in the meantime.

After that last failure, I'm going to start treating the springs on my heads.
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johnsachs

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2018, 04:26:24 PM »

The safest way to resolve the valve spring problem is simple. Use DUAL SPRINGS. May cost a tad more, may cost a few tenths of 1 horsepower , but it's like buying home owners, or auto insurance.  :o
John
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2018, 06:58:17 PM »

The safest way to resolve the valve spring problem is simple. Use DUAL SPRINGS. May cost a tad more, may cost a few tenths of 1 horsepower , but it's like buying home owners, or auto insurance.  :o
John

+1

That's an option too!

Although I'd like to point out that beehive spring failures are very rare in the grand scheme of things.
I've seen Two in the last 10 years. There's ALWAYS a chance of something breaking. That's the
nature of high performance. You have a better chance of dying in a crash if you really think about it.

Maybe I'm over-trivializing it, but I'm still going to use beehives because there's far more reasons to
use them than this one reason not to.

Disclaimer: This is JMO

 
 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 07:37:59 PM by MCE Performance »
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2018, 02:14:27 PM »

The safest way to resolve the valve spring problem is simple. Use DUAL SPRINGS. May cost a tad more, may cost a few tenths of 1 horsepower , but it's like buying home owners, or auto insurance.  :o
John

Agreed and done
175# seat 390# rate, weight 111g, cam woods 9b
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2018, 01:29:54 AM »

WOW! nice micrometers, I'm impressed
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 02:02:37 AM by MCE Performance »
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2018, 02:05:38 AM »

I've seen duel springs break and bend valves too. No getting around it. (Although they never fully dropped)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 01:12:19 PM by MCE Performance »
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2018, 10:11:41 AM »

Ran duel and triple springs on my BBC Drag boat. They broke every now and then, and the valve almost never
survived when it happened under full power. Frequent replacement of them helped, but never fully eliminated
the problem.

The aggressive cam lobes we ran had allot to do with it. When I switched to Blown gas, the cams were a little
more tame and we rarely had spring problems. .650 lift vs. .720+ had to have had something to do with it.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised as to how long they last on these bikes however)
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MCE

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2018, 11:30:55 PM »

Word I got is: Don't use bee hives on performance applications. (Over .500" ish)
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Twolanerider

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Re: Glad it wasn't a beehive spring.
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2018, 11:45:35 PM »

Word I got is: Don't use bee hives on performance applications. (Over .500" ish)

Got this and its mate back from machining several weeks ago.  625 cams.  Have had beehives break before.  Been a long time ago but it's happened.  Had to pay a few bucks extra to get these.  Never gave it a second thought.
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