www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Social => In The News => Topic started by: smkymtnboy on February 13, 2018, 11:10:41 AM
-
https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2018-02-13/harley-ceo-asks-investors-for-patience-as-sales-stock-slide?hl=1&noRedirect=1
-
Hmmmm....
Is very tempting to say, when HD's CEO says sales are slumping and they are taking steps to correct it, plus he is obviously thinking that stock prices have dropped more than they should have, & how investors should be patient:
"They all do that."
-
Where is AMF when you need them?
-
Trump specifically mentioned Harley in respect to other countries having very high taxes on importing Harleys.......and no corresponding taxes on imports to the US on their products.......he's considering the options.
Getting some of the tarriffs off of harleys going to other countries might help.
-
Getting some of the tarriffs of of harleys going to other countries might help.
So would building good reliable fleets.
Or building bikes that don't cost as much well appointed cars.
Or both.
Maybe just paint all the bikes red? Red is always good.
-
So would building good reliable fleets.
Or building bikes that don't cost as much well appointed cars.
Or both.
Maybe just paint all the bikes red? Red is always good.
Like what their investors are seeing or their financial statements are showing?
:oops: :nixweiss:
-
Trump specifically mentioned Harley in respect to other countries having very high taxes on importing Harleys.......and no corresponding taxes on imports to the US on their products.......he's considering the options.
Getting some of the tarriffs off of harleys going to other countries might help.
Back in the '80s's Harley cried to Uncle and big tariffs were in fact imposed on all Japanese brands imported to this country. Those of us who bought Japanese brands in the 80's and early 90's took it in the ear (and wallet) all because the management of H-D couldn't run their business efficiently and profitably. And here we are in 2018 with Harley still not able to run their business properly. It's hard to be sympathetic when you gave them special treatment for twenty years and they still can't run the business. They still don't seem to understand you can't charge prices equivalent to nicely equipped cars but offer much less in quality, reliability, and function than even the worst of those cars.
Jerry
-
So would building good reliable fleets.
Or building bikes that don't cost as much well appointed cars.
Or both.
Maybe just paint all the bikes red? Red is always good.
All of the above plus remove the arrogant response that they all do that.
-
All of the above plus remove the arrogant response that they all do that.
You know what's so sad about that statement? It's always said in a joking manner but every one of us have heard it at some point in our HD experience (sometimes multiple times on multiple issues). THAT'S why the stock/sales have steadily declined....we are tired of the same song and dance and hoping they change the tune or steps.... :'(
-
You know what's so sad about that statement? It's always said in a joking manner but every one of us have heard it at some point in our HD experience (sometimes multiple times on multiple issues). THAT'S why the stock/sales have steadily declined....we are tired of the same song and dance and hoping they change the tune or steps.... :'(
I stand by my response. Was told by multiple dealers "They all do that" when my lifters were going bad. They were eventually replaced. Heard the same response when a compensator was close to gone. It was eventually replaced. As a consumer of a product serviced by a Harley dealer network, we deserve better than we sometimes get. Almost everyone I know who rides (not just to the local bar & back) has been told the same by Harley dealers. Ridiculous.
HD stock is dropping like a rocket. When companies are mismanaged & are not customer responsive & jack up prices at the same time & don't have costs under control & mismatch product sold to customer wants/needs - as far as stock prices go - they all do that.
-
you can screw some of the people some of the time, but you cant screw all of them all of the time.... it will bite you in the azz
-
Trump specifically mentioned Harley in respect to other countries having very high taxes on importing Harleys.......and no corresponding taxes on imports to the US on their products.......he's considering the options.
Getting some of the tarriffs off of harleys going to other countries might help.
Let's not all hold our breaths at the same time.
-
I found this interesting in the article...
"In 2017, the ridership program added 32,000 new riders in the United States. Levatich sees it as a "positive" trend and wants to build on it.
More riders, however, do not necessarily mean higher sales.
Bill Koester, a general manager at a Harley dealership in Illinois, says only 35 percent to 40 percent of the riders trained at his dealership last year bought a new or pre-owned bike."
Using Mr. Koester's figure of 40% on total number that were in the new ridership program purchased bikes (40% * 32 000 = 12 ,800) that equates to 12,800 first time purchases. With the current reliability issues, dealers insensitivity to make customers happy, how many of those 12,800 will be repeat buyers? :nixweiss: Neither am I a statistician or business major but those numbers would concern me if my money was involved or invested in the MoCo. :nervous:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
-
Back in the '80s's Harley cried to Uncle and big tariffs were in fact imposed on all Japanese brands imported to this country. Those of us who bought Japanese brands in the 80's and early 90's took it in the ear (and wallet) all because the management of H-D couldn't run their business efficiently and profitably. And here we are in 2018 with Harley still not able to run their business properly. It's hard to be sympathetic when you gave them special treatment for twenty years and they still can't run the business. They still don't seem to understand you can't charge prices equivalent to nicely equipped cars but offer much less in quality, reliability, and function than even the worst of those cars.
Jerry
Amen Jerry. We bought our son a 2017 Ford Fiesta Hatch with 1L Turbo. It has 6 air bags, phone connect, A/C, speed control, etc... it cost us $13400 plus TTL of $450. Not a performance car but it's economic, safe, and reliable.
-
another interesting paragraph from the article;
"Levatich attributed the divergent performance to "math."
"Growth percentages of a small base are easy to achieve. When you have a high base like ours, a little bit of decline shows up very quickly," he said. "We are not going to discount to increase our market share."
-
another interesting paragraph from the article;
"Levatich attributed the divergent performance to "math."
"Growth percentages of a small base are easy to achieve. When you have a high base like ours, a little bit of decline shows up very quickly," he said. "We are not going to discount to increase our market share."
I see Levatich either doesn't understand math, or he's deliberately blowing smoke: on a small base, it's easy to get a large percentage up or down. On a large base, it takes a lot more change to get the same percentage change as a small base.
And no, a little bit of decline (or increase, for that matter) doesn't "show up quickly" on a large base.
It was obvious Levatich inherited a $hite-show from Wandell, who cheapened everything on the bikes so H-D would make more money per unit, plus more $$ from replacing the cheap $hite (sometimes several times; compensators, anyone?).
More profit = higher stock price = bigger bonus and stock options for Wandell and his cronies. Then he could sell his stock options at the higher stock price. Of course, that scheme doesn't last forever; eventually, the customers realize they're being screwed, first on high prices and low quality, then again on expensive replacement parts (still made cheaply!) and ridiculous labor prices for rushed and often-incompetent techs. Wandell bailed out at the first sign customers were wising up--all while Wandell knew his "house of cards" was going to collapse on his replacement, who would get the blame.
It's hard to pick up the cards when they've been torched to ashes and blown away by a tornado.
-
^^ this
-
I too think the MoCo is in deeper trouble than mgmt is letting on. If GM can fail, so can any company. HD mgmt seems determined to increase sales without discounting bikes. I wondering how long it'll be before we start seeing less profitable dealers close.
-
I see Levatich either doesn't understand math, or he's deliberately blowing smoke: on a small base, it's easy to get a large percentage up or down. On a large base, it takes a lot more change to get the same percentage change as a small base.
And no, a little bit of decline (or increase, for that matter) doesn't "show up quickly" on a large base.
It was obvious Levatich inherited a $hite-show from Wandell, who cheapened everything on the bikes so H-D would make more money per unit, plus more $$ from replacing the cheap $hite (sometimes several times; compensators, anyone?).
More profit = higher stock price = bigger bonus and stock options for Wandell and his cronies. Then he could sell his stock options at the higher stock price. Of course, that scheme doesn't last forever; eventually, the customers realize they're being screwed, first on high prices and low quality, then again on expensive replacement parts (still made cheaply!) and ridiculous labor prices for rushed and often-incompetent techs. Wandell bailed out at the first sign customers were wising up--all while Wandell knew his "house of cards" was going to collapse on his replacement, who would get the blame.
It's hard to pick up the cards when they've been torched to ashes and blown away by a tornado.
The really sad part is that boards of directors keep bringing in this same kind of CEO in all kinds of companies, and the results are almost universally bad in the longer term. I've personally seen it up close several times in the auto industry, and from a distance in other industries as well as retail. Slash and burn CEO's do very well for themselves and their inner circle, and maybe even for stockholders in the short term, but the end result is usually bad for customers, employees, stockholders, and suppliers. Obviously we need much better boards of directors, but considering where most of the members of boards come from I think we are just screwed. I wonder if Harley can get the same extremely favorable deal from Uncle Sam that GM did. If so, then perhaps they could also "reinvent" themselves while screwing their investors just like they have their customers for ages.
Jerry
-
The auto "bankruptcies" were all about breaking the pensions, IMHO.
-
I do think Levatich is trying to improve quality, both of the product and of the customer service, but he's fighting an uphill and into-the-wind battle. The demographics are against him, and the market isn't patient.
It's going to be really hard to change the mindset of the snowflake kids that are coming along. So many of them live on their phones and computers; they don't go on physical adventures; at their age,they don't have the money to buy expensive toys; many of them have an "entitled" attitude and expect someone else to pay for their wants.
-
So would building good reliable fleets.
Or building bikes that don't cost as much well appointed cars.
Or both.
Maybe just paint all the bikes red? Red is always good.
I agree with that entirely Don. They have lost the plot with pricing, not just the bikes, but p&a too. Reliability is, of course, something of a joke, which is not improving given the MoCo's eternal search for cheaper Chinese part suppliers.
-
Motivated by greed brother, nothing wrong with making all the money you can. But when you overcharge and give poor service eventually it will haunt you. And believe you me it has. My local dealer has overcome a lot of it because he is very active in the community and with his customers! I believe this will be the model for dealers that survive!
BigLew
-
This is exactly what HD and the greedy dealers need. They think they can treat people anyway they want and not pay the price. This will help weed out some of the crappy dealers and set the rest of the others in their place. Much needed pain to correct the ship. If not the ship keeps sailing off into the sunset to never be seen again.
-
I'm all for supporting American companies and American manufacturing.
Until they rip me off.
I'll still buy American, but it won't be HD, at least not unless some incredible changes happen.
Seems I'm not the only one.
The consumers are not nearly as brand loyal and/or easily duped as perhaps the MoCo believes.
Its much easier to fix a manufacturing or design issue than a chronic culture of questionable integrity.
-
Either sell or spin off the Motor Clothes division and invest in product development get back to who you are or should be. Build it and they will come!
-
I wonder if the Motor Clothes Division is what is helping to keep H-D afloat....I bet there is more people who own H-D t-shirts etc. then actually own bikes.
Then you also have all the H-D licensed home decor and game devices like a corn hole game and other stuff like chairs and umbrellas.
I do wish H-D would work on bike quality improvements so an owner could just buy it and ride it without spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to get it to run right and stay on the road. They do need to get to a point where the service contract/warranty as well as the parts catalogue is a nice option but not mandatory.
-
So would building good reliable fleets.
Or building bikes that don't cost as much well appointed cars.
Or both.
Maybe just paint all the bikes red? Red is always good.
Your right. I bought a very well equipped Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk for far less than a CVO and we have been having the time of our lives off-roading. My only regret is that it didn't come in red at the time.
-
I'm on my last 2017 CVO Limited. They priced me right out of the market.
-
I'm on my last 2017 CVO Limited. They priced me right out of the market.
I too have finally given up on all the dealer bullchit of gouging a good,loyal customer for over 25 years no matter what dealer around me. I took my gunship gray cash and redid the kitchen,living room and down payment on an in ground pool. No more new Harley for me and the wife...ever. Maybe Indian?
-
Harley stock hit almost 63 last March. Never reached that point again in the last year, before the last market correction it had only reached 56. Today it is at 47, it's low point for the last year. Obviously investors have gotten the message. In a way, the market is treating Harley the way it has been treating it's customers.
-
I do think Levatich is trying to improve quality, both of the product and of the customer service, but he's fighting an uphill and into-the-wind battle. The demographics are against him, and the market isn't patient.
It's going to be really hard to change the mindset of the snowflake kids that are coming along. So many of them live on their phones and computers; they don't go on physical adventures; at their age,they don't have the money to buy expensive toys; many of them have an "entitled" attitude and expect someone else to pay for their wants.
:drink: :drink: :2vrolijk_21:
-
i traded my 13 SERG at the chevy store on a truck and they gave me more for it than a HD dealer was going to give me a year and half ago when i bought my 16 SERGU... :nixweiss: whats up there, and i unbolted a few trinkets from it that HD store bid it with. every body is out for a good deal, my thoughts are just play fair. and the new HDs are priced out a lill on the high side, so its going take somn big from HD to get me another new one
-
i traded my 13 SERG at the chevy store on a truck and they gave me more for it than a HD dealer was going to give me a year and half ago when i bought my 16 SERGU... :nixweiss: whats up there, and i unbolted a few trinkets from it that HD store bid it with. every body is out for a good deal, my thoughts are just play fair. and the new HDs are priced out a lill on the high side, so its going take somn big from HD to get me another new one
You paid for the higher trade in value of the 13SERG they gave thru the purchase price of the truck.
How many auto ads do we all hear from a dealer that will give $5,000 above Blue Book value to any vehicle you trade in. They never talk about the price of the new vehicle or the trade difference which actually determines what a consumer pays.
-
truck price was 51k msrp,11k off year end deal, then they took 17k off that for the trade, wrote a check for 23k.... simple math... :nixweiss: i checked it twice... bonus 3k in pocket from the trinket sales
-
Motivated by greed brother, nothing wrong with making all the money you can. But when you overcharge and give poor service eventually it will haunt you. And believe you me it has. My local dealer has overcome a lot of it because he is very active in the community and with his customers! I believe this will be the model for dealers that survive!
BigLew
Is that the Ken Barner guy I see all over Facebook? He owns 3 or 4 dealers down that way.
-
Just stopped by a dealer in the southern burbs of Phoenix yesterday. They had can anniversary trike on the floor
An the price on the tag was $41.5k! Asked the sales person why so much? His answer was, well it's a limited addition!
They are still enjoying that joy juice! Oh, there were only one person plus me in the whole place, along with 6 sales people standing around!
-
Amen Jerry. We bought our son a 2017 Ford Fiesta Hatch with 1L Turbo. It has 6 air bags, phone connect, A/C, speed control, etc... it cost us $13400 plus TTL of $450. Not a performance car but it's economic, safe, and reliable.
We got our Cherokee with V6, 9 speed auto, 4 wheel drive, lockers, armor, leather, gps, 9 speaker stereo...for 32K. Ok, I knocked the exhaust system off once, but driver error. :P
-
We got our Cherokee with V6, 9 speed auto, 4 wheel drive, lockers, armor, leather, gps, 9 speaker stereo...for 32K. Ok, I knocked the exhaust system off once, but driver error. :P
Great price .. just need a body that fits in that car :) Even the GRAND Cherokee is a minor struggle.