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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: Heatwave on May 22, 2018, 07:20:13 PM
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Yep, the 3rd engine in my 2017 CVO Limited sumped .... again...just like the 2 before it. This 3rd engine was upgraded to Stage IV by my dealer with custom "one off" cylinders/pistons/rings that were specced by the HD Engineering Lab and overnighted to the dealer for installation. For those not following my saga, you can catch up here https://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=115564.0
After this 3rd engine sumped a week ago, HD shipped another brand new engine over the weekend to my dealer. This new 4th engine was built at the Pilgrim Road facility and was built as a COMPLETE Stage IV 117 engine before shipment to the dealer. I didn't even know HD would build a factory Stage IV 117. That's a new one. My bike was picked up today by the dealership and will be done in time for me to break it in on my ride to Rolling Thunder. Already checked my insurance policy for towing and rental coverage just in case.
No idea what oil pump is in this engine or any other factory changes/upgrades they have done inside this engine. All I know is that it was "meticulously" built at the factory with the latest components. Externally it looks identical to the 3rd engine which had a 2018 part # case. (Engines #1 & 2 had 2017 case part #s) Of particular interest is the fact that this 4th engine now has a 2019 engine case part #. Yep, that's right.... a 2019 engine case part #.
I think I have officially earned my Harley-Davidson R&D Merit Badge!!
I give the MoCo and my dealership credit for persistence, turn around time and for simply not giving up. Here I go again....wish me luck!
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Good luck! I hope it works out for you!
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Man that is astonishing!! Fourth time is the charm??...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I would love to know the revisions in the 2019 case.
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I'm rooting for you!!
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I would love to know the revisions in the 2019 case.
We’re probably not going to find out till Aug or Sept after the 19’s are launched.
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I'm rooting for you!!
You and Heatwave running a race on these summped motors? Don't you have three or four also?
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Why is this not a lemon law situation?
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Why is this not a lemon law situation?
It is, but what’s the point? To get back the money for an 18 month depreciated motorcycle value after dealing with attorneys for 2 yrs?
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Why is this not a lemon law situation?
It is, but not all states have lemon laws for motorcycles. Then you have to want to go through that process, with all that entails. Obviously the folks who are suffering multiple failures with no end in sight have decided to let Harley keep trying to find a band-aid that will work. They have a lot more patience than I do. I would have been talking to my attorney immediately after the first replacement engine also failed, and I'd have been looking for a 100% buy-back plus consequential expenses and attorney and court costs. Everyone has their own priorities and patience level, so I'm not being critical of anyone else's choices, just saying what I would do if I was the guy in the barrel. I have no doubt in my mind that someone at H-D knows the root cause of this problem. I also have no doubt they are desperately trying to find a way to avoid fixing that root cause on existing models due to the cost and bad press. Once again, Harley customers are being given the mushroom treatment. They've had a lot of practice doing that to customers over many years and decades.
Btw, the mushroom treatment consists of keeping you in the dark and feeding you a lot of chit.
Jerry
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.... They have a lot more patience than I do. I would have been talking to my attorney immediately after the first replacement engine also failed, and I'd have been looking for a 100% buy-back plus consequential expenses and attorney and court costs. .... Once again, Harley customers are being given the mushroom treatment. They've had a lot of practice doing that to customers over many years and decades.
Btw, the mushroom treatment consists of keeping you in the dark and feeding you a lot of chit.
Jerry
You and me both Jerry... no way I'd want to keep going thru the same thing expecting a different result (no matter what "improvements" they (MoCo/Dealer) say they are doing to correct the issue. Oh, and thanks for teaching me something new today... I'm saving the "Mushroom Treatment" for future use. :2vrolijk_21: :D :D
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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You and Heatwave running a race on these summped motors? Don't you have three or four also?
Ya,Im only at 3..
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Quick update. Picked up my 2017 CVO Limited with its 4th engine this afternoon. A factory built 117 Stage IV with a 2019 case. Yes...2019 case. Your engine case # can be viewed with a flashlight from under the right side of the engine. NOT the #s stamped on the bottom of the case but the numbers on the lower right side of the engine. The first 2 digits are the model year designation.
My dealer did a terrific job. The tech swapped out the engine in a single day. He's gotten pretty good as you can imagine since this is my 4th engine! (The tech and the shop got a very nice "bonus" from me for turning the bike around so quick, particularly given their work schedule this time of year.) The tech test rode it this morning. Of course it was a bit easier to install this crate engine because it had clearly been dynoed at the factory. Oil, fuel and coolant lines were installed as well as TB and injectors. There was even a bit of fuel still in the fuel line when it was uncrated.
I rode the bike 120 miles this afternoon. Interstate, backroads, 3 times around my 25 mile loop, stop & go commuter traffic too.
DAMN!!!
Gotcha.... that's a good DAMN! Of course its only 120 miles, but I know what to look for now and how to find early signs of sumping. I stayed within all break-in procedures even knowing the engine was probably run on a dyno. First 50 miles - under 3000 rpms. Everything else so far - around 3500 max. A few shifts slightly over but nothing over 3800.
There is definitely something different about this engine. MUCH crisper throttle response even running in 90 degrees. Much cooler running based on limited coolant fans turning on. I was surprised how little the fans were on given the outside temps. Fans really only came on in the stop & go commuter traffic and it was scorching just sitting in the sun. Much better torque down low than any of the 3 earlier engines.
I can't wait to explore the performance above 3500 after its more completely broken in and I have 400-500 miles on the engine (should be by late tomorrow).
Unfortunately I have no idea what's inside this engine other than its a 117 Stage IV built from a 2019 case at the factory. I will be riding it about 600-800 miles starting earlier tomorrow morning through Sunday and will have a much better idea if these early good signs are for real.
BUT, if this 2019 engine IS for real, this is EXACTLY the way all CVOs should be built. HD should stop screwing around and build the CVOs just like this with this engine. It will satisfy 95% of all riders, even power junkies. Its really that good!
Now let's see if my early enthusiasm remains through the weekend, or was all this just a mirage? I would really like to know what changes they've made to this engine because if it holds through the weekend, then the MoCo has finally made some real changes that make for a terrific engine. Look for an update around Memorial Day. Hopefully its a positive update and not a quick update from the side of the road waiting for a tow!!
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2017 and 2018 engine cases carry the same part numbers. So other than stampings making them specific to model year/VIN there shouldn't be any difference. If this latest install is really an engine from newer production we all can only hope for your sake (and the others who have also suffered this problem) that the baseline problem has been addressed and you'll be good to go for tens of thousands of miles. Would say hundreds of thousands of miles. But this is still Harley we're talking about ;D .
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2017 and 2018 engine cases carry the same part numbers. So other than stampings making them specific to model year/VIN there shouldn't be any difference. If this latest install is really an engine from newer production we all can only hope for your sake (and the others who have also suffered this problem) that the baseline problem has been addressed and you'll be good to go for tens of thousands of miles. Would say hundreds of thousands of miles. But this is still Harley we're talking about ;D .
There's the engine case part #s and then there's the serial code (Not sure if that's the correct term) for the engine case. Each half of the case has a part # and then the engine has its own code. The engine serial code (?) designates the model year and generally determines what case is used to build an engine for a particular bike. My first 2 engines were 2017 engines. The third engine was a 2018 and this 4th engine is a 2019.
I never recorded the engine case part numbers on the earlier engines. What part numbers did you have 2017 & 2018?
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Quick update. Picked up my 2017 CVO Limited with its 4th engine this afternoon. A factory built 117 Stage IV with a 2019 case. Yes...2019 case. Your engine case # can be viewed with a flashlight from under the right side of the engine. NOT the #s stamped on the bottom of the case but the numbers on the lower right side of the engine. The first 2 digits are the model year designation.
My dealer did a terrific job. The tech swapped out the engine in a single day. He's gotten pretty good as you can imagine since this is my 4th engine! (The tech and the shop got a very nice "bonus" from me for turning the bike around so quick, particularly given their work schedule this time of year.) The tech test rode it this morning. Of course it was a bit easier to install this crate engine because it had clearly been dynoed at the factory. Oil, fuel and coolant lines were installed as well as TB and injectors. There was even a bit of fuel still in the fuel line when it was uncrated.
I rode the bike 120 miles this afternoon. Interstate, backroads, 3 times around my 25 mile loop, stop & go commuter traffic too.
DAMN!!!
Gotcha.... that's a good DAMN! Of course its only 120 miles, but I know what to look for now and how to find early signs of sumping. I stayed within all break-in procedures even knowing the engine was probably run on a dyno. First 50 miles - under 3000 rpms. Everything else so far - around 3500 max. A few shifts slightly over but nothing over 3800.
There is definitely something different about this engine. MUCH crisper throttle response even running in 90 degrees. Much cooler running based on limited coolant fans turning on. I was surprised how little the fans were on given the outside temps. Fans really only came on in the stop & go commuter traffic and it was scorching just sitting in the sun. Much better torque down low than any of the 3 earlier engines.
I can't wait to explore the performance above 3500 after its more completely broken in and I have 400-500 miles on the engine (should be by late tomorrow).
Unfortunately I have no idea what's inside this engine other than its a 117 Stage IV built from a 2019 case at the factory. I will be riding it about 600-800 miles starting earlier tomorrow morning through Sunday and will have a much better idea if these early good signs are for real.
BUT, if this 2019 engine IS for real, this is EXACTLY the way all CVOs should be built. HD should stop screwing around and build the CVOs just like this with this engine. It will satisfy 95% of all riders, even power junkies. Its really that good!
Now let's see if my early enthusiasm remains through the weekend, or was all this just a mirage? I would really like to know what changes they've made to this engine because if it holds through the weekend, then the MoCo has finally made some real changes that make for a terrific engine. Look for an update around Memorial Day. Hopefully its a positive update and not a quick update from the side of the road waiting for a tow!!
Rooting for you again Heatwave!!
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Hoping this one is the last one you will need. Sure sounds like a good motor, even at break in. :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
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I'm also crossing my fingers for you, hoping they finally got it right and you can just ride without worrying about the engine.
IF the new cases turn out to be the fix, the next question has to be what are they going to do for all the people running 2017/2018 cases? I can't see Harley voluntarily replacing cases in all the M8's they've sold so far.
Jerry
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Quick update. Picked up my 2017 CVO Limited with its 4th engine this afternoon. A factory built 117 Stage IV with a 2019 case. Yes...2019 case. Your engine case # can be viewed with a flashlight from under the right side of the engine. NOT the #s stamped on the bottom of the case but the numbers on the lower right side of the engine. The first 2 digits are the model year designation.
My dealer did a terrific job. The tech swapped out the engine in a single day. He's gotten pretty good as you can imagine since this is my 4th engine! (The tech and the shop got a very nice "bonus" from me for turning the bike around so quick, particularly given their work schedule this time of year.) The tech test rode it this morning. Of course it was a bit easier to install this crate engine because it had clearly been dynoed at the factory. Oil, fuel and coolant lines were installed as well as TB and injectors. There was even a bit of fuel still in the fuel line when it was uncrated.
I rode the bike 120 miles this afternoon. Interstate, backroads, 3 times around my 25 mile loop, stop & go commuter traffic too.
DAMN!!!
Gotcha.... that's a good DAMN! Of course its only 120 miles, but I know what to look for now and how to find early signs of sumping. I stayed within all break-in procedures even knowing the engine was probably run on a dyno. First 50 miles - under 3000 rpms. Everything else so far - around 3500 max. A few shifts slightly over but nothing over 3800.
There is definitely something different about this engine. MUCH crisper throttle response even running in 90 degrees. Much cooler running based on limited coolant fans turning on. I was surprised how little the fans were on given the outside temps. Fans really only came on in the stop & go commuter traffic and it was scorching just sitting in the sun. Much better torque down low than any of the 3 earlier engines.
I can't wait to explore the performance above 3500 after its more completely broken in and I have 400-500 miles on the engine (should be by late tomorrow).
Unfortunately I have no idea what's inside this engine other than its a 117 Stage IV built from a 2019 case at the factory. I will be riding it about 600-800 miles starting earlier tomorrow morning through Sunday and will have a much better idea if these early good signs are for real.
BUT, if this 2019 engine IS for real, this is EXACTLY the way all CVOs should be built. HD should stop screwing around and build the CVOs just like this with this engine. It will satisfy 95% of all riders, even power junkies. Its really that good!
Now let's see if my early enthusiasm remains through the weekend, or was all this just a mirage? I would really like to know what changes they've made to this engine because if it holds through the weekend, then the MoCo has finally made some real changes that make for a terrific engine. Look for an update around Memorial Day. Hopefully its a positive update and not a quick update from the side of the road waiting for a tow!!
you sure of the 19 cases? form what a few dealers are saying there is no 19 case out there yet anyway. how or what is it that make you or someone believe they are 19 case? what is the differcance between the 19 and 18 or 17 cases. really wondering
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you sure of the 19 cases? form what a few dealers are saying there is no 19 case out there yet anyway. how or what is it that make you or someone believe they are 19 case? what is the differcance between the 19 and 18 or 17 cases. really wondering
Yes, its a 2019 engine. See the 6th sentence in my quick update post. I have no idea what the difference is betwee this 2019 case and my previous 2017 AND 2018 engines since it was built st the factory and has not been opened. Now at 450 miles since i Picked it up yesterday. Simply fabulous engine so far. It was low 90’s here in Va and neither highway speeds or stop & go traffic phased this engine. So far I am VERY impressed. I still need run time over 4000rpms to have confidence. Hopefully tomorrow.
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Yes, its a 2019 engine. See the 6th sentence in my quick update post. I have no idea what the difference is betwee this 2019 case and my previous 2017 AND 2018 engines since it was built st the factory and has not been opened. Now at 450 miles since i Picked it up yesterday. Simply fabulous engine so far. It was low 90’s here in Va and neither highway speeds or stop & go traffic phased this engine. So far I am VERY impressed. I still need run time over 4000rpms to have confidence. Hopefully tomorrow.
Where in "Va" are you? I'm here also... I thought you were in/from NJ.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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Yes, its a 2019 engine. See the 6th sentence in my quick update post. I have no idea what the difference is betwee this 2019 case and my previous 2017 AND 2018 engines since it was built st the factory and has not been opened. Now at 450 miles since i Picked it up yesterday. Simply fabulous engine so far. It was low 90’s here in Va and neither highway speeds or stop & go traffic phased this engine. So far I am VERY impressed. I still need run time over 4000rpms to have confidence. Hopefully tomorrow.
Is the number a second VIN derivative ID # or a casting number? Harley usually gets picky about mismatched VIN engine IDs when doing replacements.
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Is the number a second VIN derivative ID # or a casting number? Harley usually gets picky about mismatched VIN engine IDs when doing replacements.
Bike would be illegal without matching vin numbers. Harley would have bigger issues than a motor blowing up if they released that..
Sure its just some confusion, if not you just hit the lottery.. don't believe 19's have cleared EPA yet nor would your tittle be correct
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Yes, its a 2019 engine. See the 6th sentence in my quick update post. I have no idea what the difference is betwee this 2019 case and my previous 2017 AND 2018 engines since it was built st the factory and has not been opened. Now at 450 miles since i Picked it up yesterday. Simply fabulous engine so far. It was low 90’s here in Va and neither highway speeds or stop & go traffic phased this engine. So far I am VERY impressed. I still need run time over 4000rpms to have confidence. Hopefully tomorrow.
my understanding is they di change the stock cams in these 18s. supposedly they do run much better than previos stock cams in this motor
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Where in "Va" are you? I'm here also... I thought you were in/from NJ.
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
In Alexandria tonite and tomorrow nite. Riding to Gilligans and Old Alexandria tomorrow.
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Bike would be illegal without matching vin numbers. Harley would have bigger issues than a motor blowing up if they released that..
Sure its just some confusion, if not you just hit the lottery.. don't believe 19's have cleared EPA yet nor would your tittle be correct
The last engine that sumped was a 2018 according to the number on case. I’d be interested in the case # on other 2017 bikes that have had their engine replaced. Its easy enough to check on any bike.
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Is the number a second VIN derivative ID # or a casting number? Harley usually gets picky about mismatched VIN engine IDs when doing replacements.
I’m curious. Can you check the engine code on the lower right side of the engine? Its raltively easy to take a phone pic of with the bike on the kickstand. I’m curious if the first 2 digits of your engine code match the model yr of the bike.
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If you're talking about a ten character number stamped into a flat machined surface on the lower side of the engine, that is the abbreviated vehicle identification number. The full VIN is seventeen characters. Unless I'm confused, the model year designator for the current decade is a letter, not the single number used for the previous decade. If you're seeing a 19, that's most likely not the model year code. It should be an H for 2017, a J for 2018, or a K for 2019. Look at the tenth character in the full VIN on your bike, that is the date code
List the actual code you have on that new engine and perhaps one of us can interpret. See if the last six digits match the last six of your full VIN - they should if Harley did it right.
Jerry
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If you're talking about a ten character number stamped into a flat machined surface on the lower side of the engine, that is the abbreviated vehicle identification number. The full VIN is seventeen characters. Unless I'm confused, the model year designator for the current decade is a letter, not the single number used for the previous decade. If you're seeing a 19, that's most likely not the model year code. It should be an H for 2017, a J for 2018, or a K for 2019. Look at the tenth character in the full VIN on your bike, that is the date code
List the actual code you have on that new engine and perhaps one of us can interpret. See if the last six digits match the last six of your full VIN - they should if Harley did it right.
Jerry
Thanks, maybe someone can interpret the stampings. My dealer said it was a 2019 based on the code but he could have been mistaken.
Engine code lower ride side after the HD logo: 1941803116
Engine case part # : 13708454 (stamped twice, once on each half case)
If anyone can decipher these engine codes, post it up.
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In Alexandria tonite and tomorrow nite. Riding to Gilligans and Old Alexandria tomorrow.
Gotcha… sounds like you are down here/up there for Rolling Thunder. I'm hundred + miles away and not doing RT this year. Enjoy. :2vrolijk_21:
:pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
:fireman:
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best wishes on the new mystery motor :2vrolijk_21:
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Thanks, maybe someone can interpret the stampings. My dealer said it was a 2019 based on the code but he could have been mistaken.
Engine code lower ride side after the HD logo: 1941803116
Engine case part # : 13708454 (stamped twice, once on each half case)
If anyone can decipher these engine codes, post it up.
The part number for the black granite cases in both 2017 and 2017 was 24400187 (same part number for each case half sold as a pair). When HD began moving away from the year suffixed part numbers a few years ago they have migrated to 8 digit part numbers (with the exception of some hardware and bearings).
13708454 is 8 digits so might be a part number. It doesn't come up on any site one can normally search by part numbers though. So it's either new enough to be as yet uncatalogued in the search engines I was using or it's not a part number. No way to know with the information easily available. Will keep my finger crossed it's a brand new part number for a revised case that corrects what has been causing your issues.
The 1941803116 number isn't in their part number format/nomenclature so doubtful it's a part number at all. Other options could be casting or tooling numbers. Unfortunately the only thing we really know is that we don't know.
When the 2019 models are released and the parts breakdowns start showing up in online search tools the first thing curiosity will make me do is look to see if the new bikes have different part numbers for the engine cases. My personal concern as to the cause of the sumping issues would require a machining change in the cases to correct. The part numbers could be a tell-tale as to if there's been a change.
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Reading that gave me a headache.
???
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Reading that gave me a headache.
???
That means you're pregnant.
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Thanks, maybe someone can interpret the stampings. My dealer said it was a 2019 based on the code but he could have been mistaken.
Engine code lower ride side after the HD logo: 1941803116
Engine case part # : 13708454 (stamped twice, once on each half case)
If anyone can decipher these engine codes, post it up.
I believe at one time, and maybe still, the “belly” number on the crankcase identified the engine, the sequential day of the calendar or model year of manufacture, and the sequential number units manufactured that day.
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Something to consider:
A mechanical issue that results in foreign material moving through a gerotor style scavenge pump will almost always damage the gerotors, stopping the return of oil to the reservoir and causing the crankcase to fill with oil. In cases like this the pump damage and “sumping” is a symptom of an unrelated issue or malfunction somewhere else.
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That means you're pregnant.
If I was, & if those numbers stamped on those cases indicate that, it would be to deliver a barrel of beer. :drink:
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The part number for the black granite cases in both 2017 and 2017 was 24400187 (same part number for each case half sold as a pair). When HD began moving away from the year suffixed part numbers a few years ago they have migrated to 8 digit part numbers (with the exception of some hardware and bearings).
13708454 is 8 digits so might be a part number. It doesn't come up on any site one can normally search by part numbers though. So it's either new enough to be as yet uncatalogued in the search engines I was using or it's not a part number. No way to know with the information easily available. Will keep my finger crossed it's a brand new part number for a revised case that corrects what has been causing your issues.
The 1941803116 number isn't in their part number format/nomenclature so doubtful it's a part number at all. Other options could be casting or tooling numbers. Unfortunately the only thing we really know is that we don't know.
When the 2019 models are released and the parts breakdowns start showing up in online search tools the first thing curiosity will make me do is look to see if the new bikes have different part numbers for the engine cases. My personal concern as to the cause of the sumping issues would require a machining change in the cases to correct. The part numbers could be a tell-tale as to if there's been a change.
If it helps, here’s a pic of the product codes on the bottom of each half of the new engine cases.
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And here’s a pic of the code # on the lower right side of my engine as viewed from below on right side. Neither of the sequence of numbers have any correlation to the bike’s VIN.
As a further update I have almost 600 miles on this new engine. Whatever they did to the internals of this engine resulted in a complete transformation. I was in 94 degrees with high humidity today, stuck in stop & go traffic for miles, followed by highway then backroads that i was able to run the bike exactly the way I ride. It was flawless never a hiccup. I could run as hard as I wanted even in brutal heat and the bike just ripped. 300 mile interstate ride home tomorrow. If this engine is flawless on the ride home tomorrow, I’ll state with 99% confidence that HD not only solved the sumping issue but built one of, if not the best factory engine when they built this 117 Stage IV engine.
More time will tell but my confidence is growing with every mile. What a pleasure to ride this bike again.
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Heatwave, hopefully you were just assuming those cases were 19 model year and the dealer or rep didn't tell you that. Jerry is correct that year designation is by letter and not numbers and it would be a huge infraction for the manufacturer to release a vehicle identifying stamped piece with incorrect model year. If they did tell you that and use the beginning of the stamped number that starts in 19 as proof your should immediately contact Moco.
With all that said great news bike is so far so good! keep us posted
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Heatwave, hopefully you were just assuming those cases were 19 model year and the dealer or rep didn't tell you that. Jerry is correct that year designation is by letter and not numbers and it would be a huge infraction for the manufacturer to release a vehicle identifying stamped piece with incorrect model year. If they did tell you that and use the beginning of the stamped number that starts in 19 as proof your should immediately contact Moco.
With all that said great news bike is so far so good! keep us posted
On what do you make this statement? Not doubting you but we have no idea what regulatory exceptions or approvals the MoCo might have received to address a systemic design issue they might have identified in their latest engine design (assuming there engine design has actually changed).
Call it whatever year you want, if the part #s have changed from the same parts in 2017 and 2018 and are the same part #s as those released in 2019, well then.... you decide what year engine it is.
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Heatwave, I hope they got it right for you this time. Was any information given out to the difference in the new cases?
TN
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On what do you make this statement? Not doubting you but we have no idea what regulatory exceptions or approvals the MoCo might have received to address a systemic design issue they might have identified in their latest engine design (assuming there engine design has actually changed).
Call it whatever year you want, if the part #s have changed from the same parts in 2017 and 2018 and are the same part #s as those released in 2019, well then.... you decide what year engine it is.
Just for discussion's sake if the part numbers stayed the same the only differentiation as to what "year" an engine is comes from the VIN derivative the engine is stamped with. There are always the distinctions between year of manufacture, year or production, etc. A given part number may last several model years though. So its "year" becomes what VIN it got and then stuck in a bike.
A replacement engine built new today from fresh cases and stamped with a 2009 VIN to replace a failure in an 09 bike then becomes what "year" engine? Even if those new cases might include whatever revisions that have occurred between now and 2009. The VIN might be 2009. The part number might be something newer than the original 2009 part number. The.... well; it can get a little cumbersome to keep track of sometimes.
I'm hoping your cases are carrying a new part number. That would suggest a revision or revisions in the product. Short of that it's all too likely just a hand built replacement of what you've already had. The only potential benefit there is that at least you're getting a different set of cases; just in case yours were part of the problem but that problem doesn't exist in all builds (which is an entirely different worrisome proposition).
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The number engraved on the machined flat pad on the side of the engine case is usually the abbreviated VIN, which contains letters and numbers. The last six digits are supposed to be the same as the last six digits of the official vehicle identification number that is on the certification label attached to the frame. In this case they obviously didn't use the abbreviated VIN of the bike, so perhaps that number is just an engine serial number. I haven't found any information on how to interpret that all numeric number, but I have seen photo's of the long block engines Harley sells that appear to use the same all numeric format on their engine serial numbers. If you want to verify exactly what that engine is, you will probably need to contact someone at the MoCo, like whoever you've been dealing with previously. If that is in fact the engine serial number, you will want to have documentation (copy with the bike) to prove it's a legally obtained engine to replace the original. Officially the VIN of a bike is the one on the frame and title, not the engine, but some states do inspect the engine numbers to verify the engine isn't stolen. Mine does.
Jerry
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Just for discussion's sake if the part numbers stayed the same the only differentiation as to what "year" an engine is comes from the VIN derivative the engine is stamped with. There are always the distinctions between year of manufacture, year or production, etc. A given part number may last several model years though. So its "year" becomes what VIN it got and then stuck in a bike.
A replacement engine built new today from fresh cases and stamped with a 2009 VIN to replace a failure in an 09 bike then becomes what "year" engine? Even if those new cases might include whatever revisions that have occurred between now and 2009. The VIN might be 2009. The part number might be something newer than the original 2009 part number. The.... well; it can get a little cumbersome to keep track of sometimes.
I'm hoping your cases are carrying a new part number. That would suggest a revision or revisions in the product. Short of that it's all too likely just a hand built replacement of what you've already had. The only potential benefit there is that at least you're getting a different set of cases; just in case yours were part of the problem but that problem doesn't exist in all builds (which is an entirely different worrisome proposition).
My point exactly. Nobody cares what date an engine is "labeled", they care what date it was built and with what parts. IMO what dates an engine is what parts it is built from and when they were assembled.
I'm quite confident that the case part number for this engine is 13708454. I believe I am either the first or one of the first private CVO bike owners with an engine built on this new engine case part #. I also believe this will be the same part # used in all 2019+ CVO bikes and perhaps used in all replacement engines for failed 2017 and 2018 CVO M8 engines. These remarks are just my opinion and I have NO Facts to support them.
I just got home from Rolling Thunder and the bike ran spectacular. We skipped the parade given the forecast but spent time at the Vietnam Memorial and the Iwo Jima Memorial in honor of our Nation's Fallen Heroes. Its an honor to do it yearly.
I now have 850 miles since this new Factory-built 117 Stage IV engine was installed in my bike by my dealer on Thursday. Simply amazing engine. I could not be more impressed. This engine ran flawless. Never a stumble. It didn't care if it was hot or cool. It ran awesome and more powerfully than any Factory engine I've ever been on. Its the 4th engine in this bike and NONE of the 3 prior engines, even before they sumped, could even remotely compare to this new engine.
"Tip-in" was amazing. "Roll-on" power was outstanding. This engine has far more low end torque than any of the previous 3 engines. And more than the stock engine. And give this engine rpms and it eats them up. The engine spools up effortlessly and can run as long as you want in upper rpms. It just rips if you want to use the whole rpm range.
I'm telling you, put this factory engine in the hands of ANY touring bike owner and he'll never think of owning a different brand. My confidence is fully back. I just rode 250 miles this morning and I already miss riding the bike, its that much fun.
I have no idea what changes were made internally to this engine. To be honest, I don't even know for sure what cam is inside (although most likely its the SE515). I broke this engine in gently, but then made it "earn its keep" after the first 500 miles. And it DEFINITELY earned its keep in the last 300-400 miles under ALL conditions at ANY Temperature, after running it HARD or EASY, for SHORT Runs or LONG runs, using LOW rpms or running it hard in HIGHER rpms. The engine just kept delivering!
Harley, if you're reading this thread (and I suspect you are), don't screw around. Start cranking out these engines. Ramp up QC on the assembly. Get this engine into your 2019 CVOs. Take care of all the 2017 and 2018 CVO owners with this EXACT engine and you will earn back every single customer AND MORE, You have the solution. Don't waste time and don't pinch pennies. Get this engine into customer's hands immediately. You will get your money back 10-fold!!
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I'm so happy for you and also to hear HD seems to have figured this issue out. Hopefully they make things right for others in similar situations. Will certainly do alot to increase my opinion of the MoCo, which for the last decade has been pretty low.
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I'm telling you, put this factory engine in the hands of ANY touring bike owner and he'll never think of owning a different brand. My confidence is fully back. I just rode 250 miles this morning and I already miss riding the bike, its that much fun.
Really? I'm not sure the Indian, Goldwing, and BMW crowd is going to jump on the bandwagon because HD corrected a design flaw. Many of those "other" touring bike owners came off of HDs and went elsewhere out of frustration. I don't see them coming back to the old girlfriend because she had some corrective surgery. I hope the sumping issued is in fact solved with redesigned cases. But, that also tells me every M8 should have the cases replaced - and that's not going to happen.
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I'm telling you, put this factory engine in the hands of ANY touring bike owner and he'll never think of owning a different brand. My confidence is fully back. I just rode 250 miles this morning and I already miss riding the bike, its that much fun.
Really? I'm not sure the Indian, Goldwing, and BMW crowd is going to jump on the bandwagon because HD corrected a design flaw. Many of those "other" touring bike owners came off of HDs and went elsewhere out of frustration. I don't see them coming back to the old girlfriend because she had some corrective surgery. I hope the sumping issued is in fact solved with redesigned cases. But, that also tells me every M8 should have the cases replaced - and that's not going to happen.
Yep, REALLY!!!!
Remember, this is a 117 STAGE IV M8 engine built at the factory. You won't get this level of power in ANY Factory Touring bike other than BMW. If power drives the bulk of your decision making on a Touring bike, you won't be able to match it with Indian or Goldwing. OTOH, if you aren't motivated by engine power in your Touring bike, then any of those other brands are clearly great alternatives. But any guy motivated by a Stage IV upgrade will find this engine the envy of any factory touring bike engine.
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Yep, REALLY!!!!
Remember, this is a 117 STAGE IV M8 engine built at the factory. You won't get this level of power in ANY Factory Touring bike other than BMW. If power drives the bulk of your decision making on a Touring bike, you won't be able to match it with Indian or Goldwing. OTOH, if you aren't motivated by engine power in your Touring bike, then any of those other brands are clearly great alternatives. But any guy motivated by a Stage IV upgrade will find this engine the envy of any factory touring bike engine.
Hoping this motor you have stays together for you and you get to ride it for thousands of mile without a hiccup. still waiting for my new motor for which I have had several. have had other issues besides the sumping which I think have been cured months ago. The issues with the sump problem is very concerning.
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A quick update. I took the bike out for a "crisp" higher rpm ride up through lots of mountainous (for NW Jersey) roads. 94 degrees outside. The ride was about 60 miles. No highways, just tons of twisties that really gave the bike a workout over 90 mins. This engine is a blast. I was riding to my dealer (the long way) to get new rubber (Michelin Commander IIs) and an oil change (Syn3) before hitting the road to Americade (NY/VT) for probably another 600-800 mile long weekend. I should really know the status of this #4 engine after I return mid next week.
By the time I got to the dealer this afternoon, the engine was definitely HOT and breaking a sweat but still running terrific. I asked the service rep that knows my bike well if he would do the sumping check while it was hot. He said he was as interested to find out as I was. After pulling the CKP sensor, there was 1 or possibly 2 ounces in the engine case. Given how hard I had just run the engine, I was surprised it didn't have more but pleased with the results. Time for new oil, new rubber and another great ride this weekend.
Lots of riding in June. Including Laconia BikeWeek (NH) and a ride through the Alps at the end of June on a guided trip through Germany/Austria to Prague, Czech Republic for the HD 115th Euro Celebration. But that will be on a rented 2018 Ultra Limited. Let's hope my rental doesn't sump!!
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A quick update. I took the bike out for a "crisp" higher rpm ride up through lots of mountainous (for NW Jersey) roads. 94 degrees outside. The ride was about 60 miles. No highways, just tons of twisties that really gave the bike a workout over 90 mins. This engine is a blast. I was riding to my dealer (the long way) to get new rubber (Michelin Commander IIs) and an oil change (Syn3) before hitting the road to Americade (NY/VT) for probably another 600-800 mile long weekend. I should really know the status of this #4 engine after I return mid next week.
By the time I got to the dealer this afternoon, the engine was definitely HOT and breaking a sweat but still running terrific. I asked the service rep that knows my bike well if he would do the sumping check while it was hot. He said he was as interested to find out as I was. After pulling the CKP sensor, there was 1 or possibly 2 ounces in the engine case. Given how hard I had just run the engine, I was surprised it didn't have more but pleased with the results. Time for new oil, new rubber and another great ride this weekend.
Lots of riding in June. Including Laconia BikeWeek (NH) and a ride through the Alps at the end of June on a guided trip through Germany/Austria to Prague, Czech Republic for the HD 115th Euro Celebration. But that will be on a rented 2018 Ultra Limited. Let's hope my rental doesn't sump!!
how hard are you running it rpm wise, speed wise we know they are really held up too. but curious what running hard is .
thanks hope it hangs tuff for you. you deserve a good running bike without a doubt.
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how hard are you running it rpm wise, speed wise we know they are really held up too. but curious what running hard is .
thanks hope it hangs tuff for you. you deserve a good running bike without a doubt.
I would say speeds in the 30-60mph and rpms running between 3500 and 5500 for shifting. Lots of downshifting going into turns and upshifting halfway through the curve when I can see through it. Stage IV was designed to excel in that rpm range.
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I would say speeds in the 30-60mph and rpms running between 3500 and 5500 for shifting. Lots of downshifting going into turns and upshifting halfway through the curve when I can see through it. Stage IV was designed to excel in that rpm range.
hope it keeps on keeping on. the best of luck to you .
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Nice to hear of your happiness finally you deserve it. :2vrolijk_21:
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How did the bike do to and from Laconia?
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How did the bike do to and from Laconia?
Plans changed and I was unable to make it to Laconia this year. 1500 miles on the 4th engine and it runs great.
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I'm checking in again to see how the new motor is holding up? :nixweiss:
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I'm checking in again to see how the new motor is holding up? :nixweiss:
you have to wonder how that 19 motor pans out?
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you have to wonder how that 19 motor pans out?
Alls good but I’m in Europe on a rented Harley in Prague, Austria and Germany. I haven’t been on my bike in a while as I’m traveling.
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Alls good but I’m in Europe on a rented Harley in Prague, Austria and Germany. I haven’t been on my bike in a while as I’m traveling.
That's one way to avoid problems!
Just wondering when the rest of us are going to get our factory-built Stage 4 M8 engine? You definitely deserve it after your saga.
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So, I buy the 2018 CVO 117 and have all options I could think of including stage IV. I have the bike 3 days, about 400 miles, and the tappet gets loud. The dealership fixes it and I'm on my way. Still a happy customer. 9,400 miles later, because I ride it, same thing only now I hear things flying around the motor. Then the compression relief valve opens and it sounds like the head blows. I pull off of the 1st exit, having no power, and she dies. The tappet disintegrated! Dealership cracks her open and the tappet won't come out. After further break down, the needle bearings are inside my oil pump meaning they passed through the entire motor. Corporate approves a short block but is hesitant to approve a stage IV kit. I'm looking at the marks on my sleeves, gouges on my pistons, An oil pump with grooves cut into the aluminum from circulating bearings and debris, a tappet that no longer resembles one as the roller has gone through my baby. Then I find out that the computer mapping for the 117 stage four was not available so corporate told the dealer to map it for a 110ci. WTF! I just handed them $52,000 and you deceive me on top of my mechanical problems? Now the dealership is building my M8 rather than the factory.
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Thanks, maybe someone can interpret the stampings. My dealer said it was a 2019 based on the code but he could have been mistaken.
Engine code lower ride side after the HD logo: 1941803116
Engine case part # : 13708454 (stamped twice, once on each half case)
If anyone can decipher these engine codes, post it up.
Not sure if it means anything, but the numbers on my 2019 CVO SG are:
H-D logo 1931900161
Engine pair 16207452