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CVO Technical => General CVO discussion => Topic started by: BryantH on August 19, 2013, 01:12:49 PM
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My questions is, with one engines being considered revamped and a new design, are the issues that are talked about; lifter failure, excessive crank runout, marbles and ticking sound, excessive heat and all the other stuff that I've heard so much about in the last 7 years; are the 110 better now? This is MoCo's 8th year running with a 110 in their CVO motorcycles, you would think it would be a perfected piece of machinery by now. I know time will tell and some of the engine builders and other engine enthusiast need to spend some time with these 2 designs to determine what's what.
I'm also sure there will be some technical bulletin released soon that gives more specifics about the changes but if anyone has information to prove or disprove the 2014 110 engines are better or more of the same, I would like to hear it.
Quote from information I gleaned from the 2014 CVO Limited:
"As part of Project RushMore for 2014, the CVO Limited has been redesigned from the ground up for more comfort, more power, better braking and handling and more classic style. The iconic batwing H-D fairing has been totally redesigned to reduce head buffeting. This bike is powered by a new Harley® High Output Twin Cam 110 Engine with Screamin’ Eagle badges. The new high-output Twin Cam 110 engine with Screamin' Eagle badges provides 110 cubic inches of power, a low cruising rpm, more low end torque, more passing power, along with silky smooth shifting of its 6-speed cruise drive transmission."
BryantH
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My questions is, with both engines being considered revamped and new designs, are the issues that are talked about; lifter failure, excessive crank runout, marbles and ticking sound, excessive heat and all the other stuff that I've heard so much about in the last 7 years; are the 110 better now? This is MoCo's 8th year running with a 110 in their CVO motorcycles, you would think it would be a perfected piece of machinery by now. I know time will tell and some of the engine builders and other engine enthusiast need to spend some time with these 2 new designs to determine what's what.
I'm also sure there will be some technical bulletin released soon that gives more specifics about the changes but if anyone has information to prove or disprove the 2014 110 engines are better or more of the same, I would like to hear it.
Quote from information I gleaned from the 2014 CVO Limited:
"As part of Project RushMore for 2014, the CVO Limited has been redesigned from the ground up for more comfort, more power, better braking and handling and more classic style. The iconic batwing H-D fairing has been totally redesigned to reduce head buffeting. This bike is powered by a new Harley® High Output Twin Cam 110 Engine with Screamin’ Eagle badges. The new high-output Twin Cam 110 engine with Screamin' Eagle badges provides 110 cubic inches of power, a low cruising rpm, more low end torque, more passing power, along with silky smooth shifting of its 6-speed cruise drive transmission."
BryantH
What's NEW about the TC 110" engine? Maybe they did a little tweaking, but it's certainly not new. All CVOs remain at 9.2:1 CR, while the twin-cooled" Limited and Tri Glide 103" engines are at 10:1 CR. They can do apparently do that with the water-cooled heads without it pinging (much?).
TQ is up a bit, but not much. Gearing is exactly the same as all of the other Touring bikes.
So what's NEW in the 110... other than the water cooled heads on the Limited? And why didn't they bump the CR along with the twin-cooled 103s?
Now, CANBUS IS new, and maybe that's where the extra jolt comes from... a better ECM that can control fuel and spark better.
I suspect they are still using the POS SE 255 cams in the CVOs, too. Probably shouldn't rev more than 4500 RPM with that water sloshing around the exhaust valve, anyway! :'(
Ken
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I stand corrected - the 110 engine in the CVO Deluxe, CVO Road King and CVO Breakout is the 110 that has been around from 2007 - 2013 (don't know if there are 2014 enhancements). This engine was not part of the Rushmore project. The CVO Limited was part of the Rushmore project and is considered the new 110.
However, I'm still interested in learning if the regular and NEW 110 engines have been improved over the 2007 - 2013 110 engines.
BryantH
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Well, they changed the lifters, I think, in 2013. Whether they last longer? Time will tell, but people who know more than me about that stuff don't think it's JUST the lifter that is the problem. Crank? I SERIOUSLY doubt there is one smidgen of difference in 2014. What incentive does HD have to put an improved crankshaft in the 110? None. Valve train noise is the combination of several parts, and again, I seriously doubt they changed anything. But I could be wrong.
Heat management, with the water cooled head for the exhaust valve/port will likely be improved.
Until a parts manual comes out for the 2014 110's, nobody will really know for sure what, if any, changes have been made. Other than the water cooling, of course.
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Your correct Midnight Rider - I'm trying to get my head around if there are improvements for the 110 and waiting for the technical bulletin or parts, would be best. I just fried my noddle a little more, remembered that the 110B in the CVO Deluxe and the Breakout is different. I just read that the 110A in the CVO Road King (not twin cooled) was in fact part of the Rushmore Project and is concidered a New engine because they revampted it - who knows what that means.
"The H-D CVO Road King model offers custom extended saddlebags that add to the bike's premium touring capabilities, and profile laced wheels with wide whitewall tires that add to its bold boulevard style. The new high-output Twin Cam 110 engine with Screamin' Eagle badges provides 110 cubic inches of power, a low cruising rpm, more low end torque, more passing power, along with silky smooth shifting of its 6-speed cruise drive transmission."
BryantH
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I've read through all the 2014 specs on the new Harleys, and there is only one model that I can find, the ultra limited that comes with the new twin cooled motor. The twin cooled must be in reference to being cooled by water and air. The cvo ultra and ultra classic make no mention of a twin cooled motor. I read about 3 models having the new motor, but the web site makes no mention of any others.
Jonnierock
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I've read through all the 2014 specs on the new Harleys, and there is only one model that I can find, the ultra limited that comes with the new twin cooled motor. The twin cooled must be in reference to being cooled by water and air. The cvo ultra and ultra classic make no mention of a twin cooled motor. I read about 3 models having the new motor, but the web site makes no mention of any others.
Jonnierock
Limited, CVO Limited, and Tri Glide Ultra are all "twin-cooled".
Ken
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...my 2012 FLTRXSE is "twin cooled"...oil and air, whats up with this stuff??
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I just went back and looked, it make's mention of the rushmore project but it makes no mention of the twin cooled motor like on the limited, what i'm I missing.
Jonnierock
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I just went back and looked, it make's mention of the rushmore project but it makes no mention of the twin cooled motor like on the limited, what i'm I missing.
Jonnierock
It's in the Specs... "Twin-Cooled". But NOWHERE else that I could find, though...
Ken
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Notice that NOWHERE does any of the literature mention the words "water cooled"...or I can't find any mention of it. H2O is a dirty word to HD loyalists.
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Notice that NOWHERE does any of the literature mention the words "water cooled"...or I can't find any mention of it.
H2O is a dirty word to HD loyalists.
And THAT'S why I don't even ride in the RAIN, Terry!
Ken
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Found it. Thanks for the help.
Jonnierock
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Water cooled if you ride in the rain!
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I noticed mention of a new cam and airbox for the 103's, supposedly producing more torque and hp at lower rpm's. I can't find mention of the cam change in the 110's. Still the 255?
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While riding my CUSE4 in Sturgis, during a heavy rain, my oil temp stayed around 160 for 2 hrs at 50 mph. How much more proof could the MoCo be looking for?
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And THAT'S why I don't even ride in the RAIN, Terry!
Ken
I thought thats why I wasnt supposed to ever WASH mine!
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They are making way to big of a deal out of this. This is a change to the engine and they are talking like it's revolutionary. What a disappointment! Project Rushmore is Project bull$hit. I will not be buying a new bike. Why would I?
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I predict the 2015 Twin-Cooled HD engine will come with a revolutionary 1 gallon cooling system which includes a new coolant overflow reservoir that will help solve the problem of steam venting from the radiator cap during long periods of slow speed operation. This announcement will follow a previous announcement of the new Harley Davidson proprietary engine coolant, SynWater, that is required to maintain the bike's warranty. Included in 2015 as a standard item on CVOs will be the currently optional steam whistle that can be installed to replace the existing electric horn. :D :D :D
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Dig the "Steam Whistle"!
I did see in the 2014 parts catalog chrome covers for the 2014 "Water Pump". It's the only mention of water that I've found anywhere.
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Hi, I just found a picture of the Twin cooled system looks like a goldwing, not a Harley. :furious3: :smash:
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I predict the 2015 Twin-Cooled HD engine will come with a revolutionary 1 gallon cooling system which includes a new coolant overflow reservoir that will help solve the problem of steam venting from the radiator cap during long periods of slow speed operation. This announcement will follow a previous announcement of the new Harley Davidson proprietary engine coolant, SynWater, that is required to maintain the bike's warranty. Included in 2015 as a standard item on CVOs will be the currently optional steam whistle that can be installed to replace the existing electric horn. :D :D :D
Maybe it can make Latte or Expresso?
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Hi, I just found a picture of the Twin cooled system looks like a goldwing, not a Harley. :furious3: :smash:
Thanks for the pic....my question now is.... with those to heat exchangers in the lower faring cooling the return water to the engine....where is the hot air vented to?
Heat has to go somewhere and when the you are not moving....the lower faring is going to heat up from the radiators in front of your leg while the motor will be cooking the your inside cafe.
Berfore I consider getting one....I will have to take it for a nice long and slow test ride on a hot day.
I hope they got it figured out.
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Thanks for the pic....my question now is.... with those to heat exchangers in the lower faring cooling the return water to the engine....where is the hot air vented to?
Heat has to go somewhere and when the you are not moving....the lower faring is going to heat up from the radiators in front of your leg while the motor will be cooking the your inside cafe.
Berfore I consider getting one....I will have to take it for a nice long and slow test ride on a hot day.
I hope they got it figured out.
I think the idea is the hot air is vented out thru the outside sides of the lowers - and the air is moved by the fans mounted in front of the radiators located in the lowers.
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Hi, I just found a picture of the Twin cooled system looks like a goldwing, not a Harley. :furious3: :smash:
I can see some future improvements happening in the water pump area.
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I just noticed that the 14 CVO Limited has 115tq. My 13 has 118tq.
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I can see some future improvements happening in the water pump area.
Yeah, when I see all these flimsy plastic parts I think you need only one rock kicked up from the front wheel and the pressure cooker is out of service and you are back to single air cooling again , I wonder how long that will last before the cylinder heads are deep fried then.
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looks like the crank bearing and crank shaft have changed for the 2014 110's
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looks like the crank bearing and crank shaft have changed for the 2014 110's
The crank itself is unchanged. The crank has a new part number because the new crank bearing inner races are only available preinstalled on the crank assembly.
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While riding my CUSE4 in Sturgis, during a heavy rain, my oil temp stayed around 160 for 2 hrs at 50 mph. How much more proof could the MoCo be looking for?
Say there 2K, about your avatar . . . I can't think or concentrate. Talk about a distraction!
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Notice that NOWHERE does any of the literature mention the words "water cooled"...or I can't find any mention of it. H2O is a dirty word to HD loyalists.
:oops: That is because it isn't, Water doesn't cost 30 dollars a pint like Synwater does!
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"Twin Cooled Graphic"
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Question ?
Won't the Radiator Lowers now just throw the heat onto yours knees / shins area ?
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Apparently the new Twin-cooled engines lost the oil cooler. Seems like a bad trade-off to me.
Frank
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Question ?
Won't the Radiator Lowers now just throw the heat onto yours knees / shins area ?
From looks and rider reports, the hot air is "blown" out the sides of the lowers, towards the top, and the lowers are a bit wider where it matters most. Legs are ventilated by an open/close vent inboard of each lower.
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I predict the 2015 Twin-Cooled HD engine will come with a revolutionary 1 gallon cooling system which includes a new coolant overflow reservoir that will help solve the problem of steam venting from the radiator cap during long periods of slow speed operation. This announcement will follow a previous announcement of the new Harley Davidson proprietary engine coolant, SynWater, that is required to maintain the bike's warranty. Included in 2015 as a standard item on CVOs will be the currently optional steam whistle that can be installed to replace the existing electric horn. :D :D :D
If you are using the HD "SynWater" you will be required to go to frequent confessions to wipe those "sin's" clean!! :P
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Apparently the new Twin-cooled engines lost the oil cooler. Seems like a bad trade-off to me.
Frank
Why? Most of the heat picked up by the oil comes from two places, the heads and the piston cooling jets. If you drastically reduce the wide swings in temperature of the heads common to the air cooled version, I'm guessing the oil temperature will remain more consistent and be less likely to spike to abnormal levels. Real world experience will be needed before we can pass judgement, but considering the limited effectiveness of the low mount coolers on the previous CVO's I'm going to predict the oil temps will in fact be more stable with the new system.
Jerry
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Why? Most of the heat picked up by the oil comes from two places, the heads and the piston cooling jets. If you drastically reduce the wide swings in temperature of the heads common to the air cooled version, I'm guessing the oil temperature will remain more consistent and be less likely to spike to abnormal levels. Real world experience will be needed before we can pass judgement, but considering the limited effectiveness of the low mount coolers on the previous CVO's I'm going to predict the oil temps will in fact be more stable with the new system.
Jerry
I guess we'll see. There's not much coolant volume to the new system and it's only removing some heat from the exhaust valve area. Seems to me they could have incorporated a system with more cooling capability, added capacity and included an oil / water intercooler but alas the bean counters still rule the roost.
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Seems like a "band-aid" solution to an ongoing problem that H-D has known about for some time. I pity the poor fool that lets them (H-D) sucker them into buying into this screwed up fix. Come on moco, get your head out of your a$$ and really do something innovative about this and show us some real engineering technology. :soapbox:
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Why? Most of the heat picked up by the oil comes from two places, the heads and the piston cooling jets. If you drastically reduce the wide swings in temperature of the heads common to the air cooled version, I'm guessing the oil temperature will remain more consistent and be less likely to spike to abnormal levels. Real world experience will be needed before we can pass judgement, but considering the limited effectiveness of the low mount coolers on the previous CVO's I'm going to predict the oil temps will in fact be more stable with the new system.
Jerry
I agree, Jerry. The proof will be in the pudding, of course, but the oil cooler was pretty much useless sitting in traffic. And not a hell of lot better when moving, particularly when it's getting 110 degree air across it right off the blacktop. The biggest complaint most have with heat was because of the exhaust port/pipe just inboard of your right inner thigh...cooling that off should prove beneficial, IMO. IF the system is trouble free, I see no down side to it.
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I agree, Jerry. The proof will be in the pudding, of course, but the oil cooler was pretty much useless sitting in traffic. And not a hell of lot better when moving, particularly when it's getting 110 degree air across it right off the blacktop. The biggest complaint most have with heat was because of the exhaust port/pipe just inboard of your right inner thigh...cooling that off should prove beneficial, IMO. the system is trouble free, I see no down side to it.
I agree Terry IF
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Apparently the new Twin-cooled engines lost the oil cooler. Seems like a bad trade-off to me.
Frank
Agreed
I am also curious how HD prevents any warping or distortion of the Cylinder heads with "Only One Side" being Liquid Cooled?????????????
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Agreed
I am also curious how HD prevents any warping or distortion of the Cylinder heads with "Only One Side" being Liquid Cooled?????????????
The hottest part of the motor is the exhaust, the intake side is cooled somewhat by the incoming air/fuel
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I am also interested by the answers to the OP question. Will the new CVO stand up to HD claims: more torque and HP and why?
Thanks to the great forum writers that will help us find out. :)
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Question ?
Won't the Radiator Lowers now just throw the heat onto yours knees / shins area ?
My experience has shown that the twin cooling does not add a lot of heat to my lower legs. The vents do a great job of letting in air. Or, at least I can't feel the excess heat over the dang CAT! :'(. The stock pipes gotta' go soon!
I rode back from CO across NM and TX. It was between 95 and 100 all the way. Stopping in traffic was a bummer, to be sure. The fans kick in and blow the radiator heat away, though. I think I had more heat from the heated seat. Apparently HD engineers though that a toggle switch was better as LO, OFF, HI as opposed to OFF, LOW HI -Rode the whole way back with the A$$ warmer on LO - DOH! :oops:
When I picked up the bike, I let my brother ride it part way home. (The only other person who will ever ride my bike). He has Fat Boy and he definitely noticed the extra heat on the right side coming from the pipes.
AFAIK, the twin cooling was not designed as a heat management solution per se, but a way to further tweak the torque. What I mean is they weren't necessarily trying to solve a heat problem, but introducing a new feature that allows better performance. I guess by managing the temps in the exaust ports, MoCO can get a little better torque - not sure of the specifics there. I imagine there will be after market oil cooling solutions that take up residence somewhere besides where the HOH pump is.
BTW if anyone is wondering, all the cool scientists write H2O as HOH. :drink:
Regards,
M
SFC, USA (RET)
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When I picked up the bike, I let my brother ride it part way home. (The only other person who will ever ride my bike). He has Fat Boy and he definitely noticed the extra heat on the right side coming from the pipes.
Please clarify this statement? He noticed the extra heat of your bike, or has previously noticed it on the FatBoy?
AFAIK, the twin cooling was not designed as a heat management solution per se, but a way to further tweak the torque. What I mean is they weren't necessarily trying to solve a heat problem, but introducing a new feature that allows better performance.
My understanding is that they did not do this for heat mgmt OR performance. They did this SOLELY to control NOX emissions to comply with impending mandates. Any gain in performance or comfort was lagniappe (welcome, of course.)
This was thrust upon us (and them) much as catalytic converters, but this time we may get some gains as an aside.
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Please clarify this statement? He noticed the extra heat of your bike, or has previously noticed it on the FatBoy?
He noticed a great deal more heat on the CVO as compared with his FB.
My understanding is that they did not do this for heat mgmt OR performance. They did this SOLELY to control NOX emissions to comply with impending mandates. Any gain in performance or comfort was lagniappe (welcome, of course.)
This was thrust upon us (and them) much as catalytic converters, but this time we may get some gains as an aside.
Can't comment further on this due to my ignorance on the subject. I Thought I recalled discussion on this board stating that the TC was for a performance tweak to get more torque. Though if it's a emissions thing, wouldn't all the bikes have to start having it? Regardless, I couldn't get the CVO without it, so there I am.
I am not much of a motor head. I just like to ride. I have had several varied bikes over the years. Never had a new one. I was just tired of compromising so I got the "bells and whistles" version. I just want it to run trouble free for a long time. And, of course, the verdict is still out on that account. Warranty, extended warranty, blah, blah....
Thanks for your input.
Regards,
M
SFC, USA (RET)