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[chucklove19]

So.... at 7500 miles my bike took a crap. Called AAA and had it towed to the stealership.
Diagnosis: Oil pump failure/ lifter seizure

They're replacing the motor....but why do I have a good feeling that this is just going to happen again? Anyone else had engine issues?

[Twolanerider]

 Anyone else had engine issues?

[chucklove19]

lmao. I just did a search on this site and wow.... Gathering my parts list now.

[grc]

Consider yourself to be a member of a large fraternity within a fraternity. 

Jerry

[Rooster]

Made my day with that one Don 

[ultrafxr]

Welcome to the club.  I've had three total engine failures: 2 on my '07 and 1 on my '12 due to lifters  and cam bearings.  Only 'good' thing is the failures trash the engines to such a degree that the moco and ESP have ponied up with brand new ones.  So all is good - well until the next failure!   

[cvosjoe]

2011 FLTRUSE inner cam bearing failure at 31k. 2015 FLTRUSE lifter needle bearing failure at 34k. Both received new motors under warranty.

[Kingspoke]

So.... at 7500 miles my bike took a crap. Called AAA and had it towed to the stealership.
Diagnosis: Oil pump failure/ lifter seizure

They're replacing the motor....but why do I have a good feeling that this is just going to happen again? Anyone else had engine issues?

What year and model bike do you have?  Sorry to hear that bad news!  Best of luck!

[TN]

So.... at 7500 miles my bike took a crap. Called AAA and had it towed to the stealership.
Diagnosis: Oil pump failure/ lifter seizure

They're replacing the motor....but why do I have a good feeling that this is just going to happen again? Anyone else had engine issues?

details man. 


TN

[HD Street Performance]

It happens. The metal travels. Hopefully the dealer does a deep dive cleaning the system including the oil pan and cooler. Then the lifters become a PM item at 10k intervals. It would be smart to move up to a better lifter and adjustable pushrods with this new motor if the dealer will allow substitutes.

[grc]

It happens. The metal travels. Hopefully the dealer does a deep dive cleaning the system including the oil pan and cooler. Then the lifters become a PM item at 10k intervals. It would be smart to move up to a better lifter and adjustable pushrods with this new motor if the dealer will allow substitutes.

How about substituting a S&S 124? 

Jerry

[HD Street Performance]

Yeah you betcha.

[TN]

Yeah you betcha.

You the same fellar that use to watch all the Gunsmoke episodes??

A serious question 


TN

[Ridgerunr]

At 300 miles I removed OE lifters and replaced with S&S Premium and change cams and bearings. So far so good. (fingers crossed)

[chucklove19]

2015 CVO Street Glide - Carbon Crystal

Any recommendations for lifters/gear drive? I need this thing functional. Cant cross state lines when my chit is blowing up every few thousand miles lol

[Ridgerunr]

Late model lower ends have too much runout for use of gear drive cams. The current chain system is fine. Install S&S Premium lifters. Ride it.

[Kingspoke]

2015 CVO Street Glide - Carbon Crystal

Any recommendations for lifters/gear drive? I need this thing functional. Cant cross state lines when my chit is blowing up every few thousand miles lol

Your misfortune motivated me to get off my duff and set an appointment with the shop to install S&S premium lifters with S&S adjustable pushrods, and S&S cam bearing kit.  I also have some SE 585 cams, but I'm on the fence about replacing the SE255's as I love the torque early on.

I had these parts sitting around since last fall!

[cahdbiker]

Hi Kingspoke, I am familiar with the S&S 585 cam. I am hoping that the grind for an Evo 585 cam  is the same grind that they use on the twin cam 585. I am pretty sure it is. I can tell you that when I installed an S&S 107 in my 95 Heritage it had the 585 cam. That bike pulled from down low and had crazy top end. For the record it had a six speed and a 30 tooth front sprocket and a 70 tooth rear. My buddy had a Dyna  Superglide with 103, race tuner, and S&S 585s.( 32 tooth front sprocket and stock on rear) His bike was a madman.  Based on my experience I would say that a Ultra Classic would be too heavy of a bike for the 585s. In my 09 I am sticking with my 255s and Fulsac stage one kit. I would hate to lose that bottom end and I usually shift by 5k anyways. I would ask anyone who installed 585s in a SE Ultra Classic to chime in and give an opinion. Or call S&S and ask them. CAHDBIKER

Your misfortune motivated me to get off my duff and set an appointment with the shop to install S&S premium lifters with S&S adjustable pushrods, and S&S cam bearing kit.  I also have some SE 585 cams, but I'm on the fence about replacing the SE255's as I love the torque early on.

I had these parts sitting around since last fall!

[twinotter]

AFAIK the SE585 is totally different than the S&S 585 cam. Do not assume you can use the S&S in place of the SE version! Check out the specs and compression each desires, and their prospective uses.  twinotter

[rigidthumper]

 I worked at the same dealership from 1998 to last month, and the CVO failures have dropped significantly. I still advocate good lifters and cam bearings, but I've also found less spring pressure to help- Oviate or beehive, setup for the cams of choice, will be quieter and easier on the entire valve train. Proper components, matched, will bring a lot of smiles/gallon.

[Kingspoke]

Hi Cahdbiker!  I'm with you, loving the low end grunt of the SE 255's, so I was reluctant to swap them out with the SE 585's, knowing they might lose that off the line torque.  Ron at RC Cycles suggested that we try a 4 degree advance on the cam, and boy was he on the money. 

My bike is just as fast off the line, I can still easily pass cars in 6th gear (I'm a 3k rpm at 80mph, so I'm right in the power band), and yet it extends the power at higher rpms.  I've lost nothing (but heat), and maintained torque further across the board, while picking up a modest 9hp.  I'm very happy with the results, as I was already happy with the 110 performance (Not happy with some of the crappy components (cam bearings, lifters, flywheel tolerance, etc.) Moco puts in these bikes.

If I would have had any serious engine failure, (my bike is off warranty), I would probably go straight to a S&S T124LC granite.

Here's the dyno overlay of my SE255's with my new SE585's!

In my 09 I am sticking with my 255s and Fulsac stage one kit. I would hate to lose that bottom end and I usually shift by 5k anyways. I would ask anyone who installed 585s in a SE Ultra Classic to chime in and give an opinion. Or call S&S and ask them. CAHDBIKER

[prodrag1320]

S&S lifters torrington inner cams bearing are a must have

[Kingspoke]

S&S lifters torrington inner cams bearing are a must have

Yes, sir!

[Rooster]

looks like you gained a 2250rpm dip with the extra oomph. Can you feel it? I have one twice that big and can sure feel it and would like to get rid of it someday.

[Kingspoke]

looks like you gained a 2250rpm dip with the extra oomph. Can you feel it? I have one twice that big and can sure feel it and would like to get rid of it someday.

I don't see a dip (measured with a ruler on my graph) at 2250, though it stays parallel for a minuscule 60-80rpm.  If you're talking about at 2600 there is a slight dip, but not discernable while accelerating through that point.  Could some of this be clutch slippage?

[mr_magoo]

Oil pump failure at 18 miles.  HD wanted the dealer to just replace the broken parts.  After mentioning the lemon law HD sent the dealer a new motor overnight.

[Rooster]

I don't see a dip (measured with a ruler on my graph) at 2250, though it stays parallel for a minuscule 60-80rpm.  If you're talking about at 2600 there is a slight dip, but not discernable while accelerating through that point.  Could some of this be clutch slippage?

Ok, sorry just before then. Mine is still there after adding heavier diaphragm spring. My dip is a lot bigger just wondered if you felt the early one. Looks to be about the same as the 2600 one.

[Unbalanced]

That dynosheet looks like you have clutch issues and before you can tell if you have a dip or not you would need to resolve the clutch, wheel slippage or tuning issues that are showing.   

[Rooster]

Listen to Harry, he knows what he is talking about. I'm just another asking questions.

[Unbalanced]

This is the 2nd dyno sheet recently that have shown this.   I hope the tuners are telling folks or calling them as they see this vs just sending them out the door

[Kingspoke]

Ok, sorry just before then. Mine is still there after adding heavier diaphragm spring. My dip is a lot bigger just wondered if you felt the early one. Looks to be about the same as the 2600 one.

Oh, not a problem, I understand where you're coming from!

[Kingspoke]

This is the 2nd dyno sheet recently that have shown this.   I hope the tuners are telling folks or calling them as they see this vs just sending them out the door

I don't believe I have a clutch issue, what I think is that there could be slippage perhaps (don't know), during the pull.  Dyno Bob, definitely would have told me if he thought there were any issues.  He also test rode the bike, immediately following the dyno as well.

My bike shifts beautifully, high speed or low.   Bob is one of the top tuners in the country.

[Unbalanced]

Something is going on and it "looks" like clutch slippage.   Most of his sheets are very smooth clean lines.  Yours is not.

He should have your run on the computer check out the gear setting instead of HP and take a look.

[grc]

I agree.  With the smoothing set at the maximum of 5, that chart looks too choppy compared to most of the other charts I've seen from the top notch tuners.  It may or may not be slippage, but something sure doesn't look right.  And yes, Bob is indeed one of those top notch tuners.

Jerry 

[Kingspoke]

Something is going on and it "looks" like clutch slippage.   Most of his sheets are very smooth clean lines.  Yours is not.

He should have your run on the computer check out the gear setting instead of HP and take a look.

I'll check with him!

[Kingspoke]

Bob, says he will do a clutch slip graph, soon as I have time to bring it in (soon)!   It could be slipping but I'm not feeling it.  We'll see what comes out of the graph.

[Rooster]

For what it may be worth, I didn't know mine was slipping until I was told by the tuner. But then I wasn't WOT like he was.

[FlaHeatWave]

The Clutch will slip on the Dyno and not slip on the street...

[Kingspoke]

The Clutch will slip on the Dyno and not slip on the street...

Good point!

[FLTRI]

Looks like a little wheel hop on the drum?
Note how hard the torque hits.
Bob

[SDCVO]

My bike shifts beautifully, high speed or low.   Bob is one of the top tuners in the country.

Couldn't agree more, I brought my bike all the way up there twice from San Diego for Bob to tune.

[Kingspoke]

Couldn't agree more, I brought my bike all the way up there twice from San Diego for Bob to tune.

Love your bike!   Says a lot when you travel that far to let Bob tune your bike!

Bob's just a great guy (as you know) on top of that!

[Kingspoke]

Just got back from RC Cycles, and Bob did a few pulls when he began concentrating on how the tire was reacting on the drum, particularly when at idle.  He pointed out how the tire was out of round.  I could see it clearly when the bike was at low speed on the drum.

Problem solved!  

[sadunbar]

   Bob is one of the top tuners in the country.

Without question, Bob is a great tuner....  Attention to detail and a great understanding of tuning...

Bob's a good friend of mine.  We've been friends since long before he even thought of tuning his first motorcycle...

[Kingspoke]

Without question, Bob is a great tuner....  Attention to detail and a great understanding of tuning...

Bob's a good friend of mine.  We've been friends since long before he even thought of tuning his first motorcycle...

That's going back aways!   Just kidding, but he's a great guy on top of his skills. 

A guy that I highly respect as a person and rider (Police bike instructor and part time drag racer), just happened to come into the shop when Bob was getting ready to tune my bike, and commented what a skilled rider Bob was!  Apparently they were tearing up in the hills, one time and Bob made quite an impression!   Bob is such a modest guy.

I forgot add that Bob commented how well my bike runs, and I was saying yes it's running great.  When your bike runs and shifts great, even in 95 degrees, & on 91 octane, leave it alone!  That's my plan anyhow!

[SDCVO]

Thought I would post the dyno run Bob did on my bone stock S&S 124. My buddies down here thought I was nuts getting my bike all the way to Hayward (twice with 2 different motors) driving through not only San Diego but Los Angeles where God only knows how many "tuners" there are there but not only have I never seen any sheet close to this, bike runs insanely smooth whether I am "ripping its face off" or just cruising with a group of my friends here from this forum that JC has organized. Currently have 15000 miles on this motor and it runs as good today on my 250 mile jaunt in 90+degree weather as the day after he tuned it.
Im sure I will be seeing him again whenever I need another tune. One thing for me is certain, I would never have anyone else tune my bikes.

[JCZ]

And a few of us have got to see your bike run......run away from ours as we have the wick twisted WOT.  Probably a good thing I don't have the same motor....we'd sure be in trouble Alan.

Yes, Bob has tuned several of my bikes and many others here on this forum from Nor Cal.  He certainly has a reputation for being the best on the west coast.

Interesting Kingspoke.  The tire is out of round or is it not balanced correctly?  I had a problem with tires cupping pre-maturely, years ago.  I quite getting tires mounted at that dealership and the cupping problem went away.  I think it's do to balancers that are not calabrated (balanced) correctly and they just don't know it.  They balance a tire to what they think is within specs but it's not.  Just my humble opinion. 

[Kingspoke]

Thought I would post the dyno run Bob did on my bone stock S&S 124.  Currently have 15000 miles on this motor and it runs as good today on my 250 mile jaunt in 90+degree weather as the day after he tuned it.
Im sure I will be seeing him again whenever I need another tune. One thing for me is certain, I would never have anyone else tune my bikes.

I would say I love your torque curve, only it's not a curve!   Looks like you can wind that puppy all the way out!

[Kingspoke]

And a few of us have got to see your bike run......run away from ours as we have the wick twisted WOT.  Probably a good thing I don't have the same motor....we'd sure be in trouble Alan.

Yes, Bob has tuned several of my bikes and many others here on this forum from Nor Cal.  He certainly has a reputation for being the best on the west coast.

Interesting Kingspoke.  The tire is out of round or is it not balanced correctly?  I had a problem with tires cupping pre-maturely, years ago.  I quite getting tires mounted at that dealership and the cupping problem went away.  I think it's do to balancers that are not calabrated (balanced) correctly and they just don't know it.  They balance a tire to what they think is within specs but it's not.  Just my humble opinion. 

Bob said the tire is defective.  When he was doing some pulls and then letting off he kept looking at the left rear of the bike.  Another guy and I could not really see anything (or didn't notice) on the right side.  When Bob called me over to look closely at the drum and the tire contact, on the left side, it was clear the tire was out of round.  At first I thought my rim may have been bent, but it was clear at slow speed with Bob sitting on the bike the tire was out of round.

I took the bike up to 110 after the first dyno and no problem that this fool noticed!  It is probably skipping on the dyno at acceleration.  I have Ohlins front and back, and it probably didn't reveal itself as much as with the stock suspension. 

I have 11K on the 407 and will just replace it with the AE's.  Bob was pretty adamant that my rear tire is defective.  I always look over my tires on the stand (J&S) and I did not see any cupping.  I guess I should play the lottery!

[grc]

Even if a tire shows no sign of radial or lateral out-of-round conditions and the balance also checks ok, you can still have problems once the tire is under load and rotating on a solid surface.  I used to deal with this in the auto industry, where it's called force variation and our tire suppliers were required to measure and control it.  Think of it as thin or soft spots at various locations around the circumference of the tire, although it is usually more complex than that.

Jerry

[Unbalanced]

Glad u have a starting place.  The proof will be change tire put bike on dyno for a pull it should then yield a flat smooth line.   If not go from there.

Hopefully you have it worked out.    Still a little confused why it wasn't brought to your attention in the first place though or was it?

[Kingspoke]

Glad u have a starting place.  The proof will be change tire put bike on dyno for a pull it should then yield a flat smooth line.   If not go from there.

Hopefully you have it worked out.    Still a little confused why it wasn't brought to your attention in the first place though or was it?

Thanks! 

The forum provided a reason for closer examination, but it was not something clearly apparent. 

It wasn't that apparent in terms of performance.  Bob, the wrench, and I all rode the bike, following the dyno tune, and not one of us detected any clutch problem.  Ron (the owner of RC Cycles) said, the graph does not reflect clutch slippage.

In terms of "out of round" being detected initially, I had no idea.  I should have paid more attention.  The good news is, I'll replace this tire, re-balance, and go from there.

[Unbalanced]

King,

If it were mine on the next pull after the tire is replaced I'd be sure to get a gear pull sheet as well as the WOT.   

This won't earn me any popularity, but I'll politely disagree that it wasn't apparent that there was a concern.   The choppiness  of the dyno sheet should of been apparent to a dyno operator vs posting here and finding there is a possible issue then to have it pointed out out that it is probably wheel hop only after questioning it.  My point is if it's not a smooth line the graph deserves further questing.   The WOT pull is one of the easiest things to tune.   

That is provided the tuner hasn't identified that there is an issue.

Flip side: 
Everyone has the chance to miss something have a bad day, be overly busy or distracted, etc, but it is how they deal with it after the fact that matters and Bob making sure it's figured out which speaks to his character.

Look forward to seeing your updated sheet.

[Kingspoke]

King,

If it were mine on the next pull after the tire is replaced I'd be sure to get a gear pull sheet as well as the WOT.   

This won't earn me any popularity, but I'll politely disagree that it wasn't apparent that there was a concern.   The choppiness  of the dyno sheet should of been apparent to a dyno operator vs posting here and finding there is a possible issue then to have it pointed out out that it is probably wheel hop only after questioning it.  My point is if it's not a smooth line the graph deserves further questing.   The WOT pull is one of the easiest things to tune.   

That is provided the tuner hasn't identified that there is an issue.

Flip side: 
Everyone has the chance to miss something have a bad day, be overly busy or distracted, etc, but it is how they deal with it after the fact that matters and Bob making sure it's figured out which speaks to his character.

Look forward to seeing your updated sheet.

I know that Bob tuned my bike to perfection, based on how it feels and performs.  I have complete confidence in his abilities as does hundreds of others.  The issue with the defective tire was not apparent to me, nor the wrench, or Bob, or I'm certain they would have mentioned it.

With respect to the squiggly lines It was also not apparent to me, and lacking expertise in that, I'll leave it to the experts to interpret.  When you post on a forum you can expect to various opinions, whether popular or not, so I'm  very understanding of that.

Through this discussion and followup, it has been determined that there isn't a clutch slippage issue, so that is a good thing.  The defective tire being revealed through this process is also a good thing.  As to what is apparent to others is speculative at best, so I'll leave that part alone.

My next Dyno tune will be with "Dyno Bob"!

[Kingspoke]

Even if a tire shows no sign of radial or lateral out-of-round conditions and the balance also checks ok, you can still have problems once the tire is under load and rotating on a solid surface.  I used to deal with this in the auto industry, where it's called force variation and our tire suppliers were required to measure and control it.  Think of it as thin or soft spots at various locations around the circumference of the tire, although it is usually more complex than that.

Jerry

Thanks for that input and a reference to your knowledge in this area.  You always have some interesting and informative comments.  This is something new to me.  As they say you learn something new each day. 

I have been so fortunate with very few problems with all my Harley's over 40 years.  I know the forum somewhat amplifies the issues with Harley's but there are also some patterns with HD components, and sub contracted components.  I've recently did a search, as a result and found that there were several reports of defective Dunlop 407's.

[Ridgerunr]

Will a "cupped" rear tire show the choppy lines?

[Eddie Haskell]

So, our engines blow up and our tires are square, gotta love it!
 Since the bearings are garbage and the lifters are junk, if a guy was to go out and replace these parts with quality parts and later in life the oil pump fails, isn't HD going to say it was my fault even if it wasn't?
 I know they have to prove that what I did caused the failure, but I don't need that headache.
 These bikes sure are pretty though! 

[Kingspoke]

Will a "cupped" rear tire show the choppy lines?

Yes, and my rear tire is in fact, cupped! I thought it wasn't looking straight at it, but getting down under the bike looking at an angle, it was clear it is very much cupped!  

[Kingspoke]

So, our engines blow up and our tires are square, gotta love it!
 Since the bearings are garbage and the lifters are junk, if a guy was to go out and replace these parts with quality parts and later in life the oil pump fails, isn't HD going to say it was my fault even if it wasn't?
 I know they have to prove that what I did caused the failure, but I don't need that headache.
 These bikes sure are pretty though! 

I love Harley's and it's all I've ever wanted to own for 40 years, but in the future I'm gonna try and give Moco as little money as possible, if I can.  If my bike takes a dump I'll either replace with S&S flywheel on up, or just put in an S&S 124.  I have to tell you though, my bike is running so good, shifts so smooth, and sounds so good, I'm in hog heaven.  I can't run with the 117's or 124's but man this thing (all 900lbs) is fast off the line! 

Let's see what this new Milwaukee 8 is going to do!  I'll be watching from the sidelines!

[Unbalanced]

Yes, and my rear tire is in fact, cupped! I thought it wasn't looking straight at it, but getting down under the bike looking at an angle, it was clear it is very much cupped!

KingSpoke,

Did you get a chance to change the tire and re run it on the dyno yet?

[Kingspoke]

Not yet, with the holiday and all, but I'll be making an appointment very soon.  The rear is not holding air very well either, so it's a must do!

[Unbalanced]

Sounds like good timing